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How to Understand Revelation and Daniel

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On 7/6/2018 at 2:57 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

By far, in the Old Testament the most common connection between clouds and the Lord (Jehovah) God are references unto the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory.  In like manner, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 all also reference a connection between "cloud(s)" and our Lord Jesus Christ's glory.  

On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

In like manner?

1) The glory cloud in the OT is a physical manifestation showing God's presence.  Jesus' presence himself does this, making the glory cloud purposeless.  

2) The glory cloud in the OT is not linked to judgment.

3) The glory cloud is at ground level, not linked to clouds in the sky.

4) In Acts 1, the cloud that received Jesus is not identified as a glory cloud, but is treated just as a regular cloud.

5) Glory cloud is always used in a singular sense, but judgment clouds are usually used in the plural. There are no "glory clouds".  

Actually, my “in like manner” statement above said nothing about the character of the clouds being in like manner, or about the number of the clouds being in like manner, or about the location of the clouds being like manner.  Rather, my “in like manner” statement above only indicated that the reference to “cloud(s)” in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 is connected to our Lord Jesus Christ’s GLORY in like manner to the fact that many of cloud references in the Old Testament are connected to the Lord (Jehovah) God’s GLORY.  This is simply a Biblical FACT.

Matthew 24:30 – “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Mark 13:26 – “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.’

Luke 21:27 – “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

Thus I state again:

On 7/6/2018 at 2:57 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Actually, in ALL of the passages under question the reference to cloud(s) serves a function.  By far, in the Old Testament the most common connection between clouds and the Lord (Jehovah) God are references unto the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory.  In like manner, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 all also reference a connection between "cloud(s)" and our Lord Jesus Christ's glory.  As such, these passages provide a connection between the glory of the Lord (Jehovah) God from the Old Testament, as noted through the cloud on Mount Sinai, through the cloud that abode with Israel in the wilderness, through the cloud that filled both the tabernacle and the temple, etc., with the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ in His Second Coming.  Indeed, the glory of the Lord (Jehovah) God in the Old Testament is the same glory as our Lord Jesus Christ in His Second Coming precisely because our Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord (Jehovah) God.  Yet while the cloud(s) of these Old Testament events represented the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory, they also were a literal, physical reality that could be literally seen.  Even so, in our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming, the cloud(s) will also be both representative of His "power and great glory" as well as a literal, physical reality that shall be literally seen.

 

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On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

1) The glory cloud in the OT is a physical manifestation showing God's presence.  Jesus' presence himself does this, making the glory cloud purposeless.  

Indeed, often in the Old Testament it appears that the “glory cloud” itself is the very manifestation of the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory, whereas in the New Testament the Lord Jesus Christ Himself is the express image and very embodiment of the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory.  Yet the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds allows there to be connection between the Cloud of Glory within the Old Testament with the Glory (Christ Himself) in clouds within the New Testament prophecies.

Furthermore, it is not precisely accurate to indicates that connection between cloud(s) and the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory in the Old Testament is always such that the cloud(s) are the very manifestation of that glory.  When the Lord (Jehovah) God came down upon Mount Sinai, the cloud ITSELF is not presented as the manifestation of the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory.  Rather, Scripture indicates that the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory was within the cloud and surrounded by the cloud.

Exodus 24:15-18 – “And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.  And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.  And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.  And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.”

(Note: Ezekiel 1 provides a similar case.)
 

On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

2) The glory cloud in the OT is not linked to judgment.

This is simply a FALSE statement.

Exodus 14:23-25 – “And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.  And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, and took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.”

Numbers 12:4-10 – “And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation.  And they three came out.  And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.  And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.  My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?  And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.  And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.”

Numbers 16:41-50 – “But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD.  And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared.  And Moses and Aaron came before the tabernacle of the congregation.  And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment.  And they fell upon their faces.  And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.  And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people.  And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed.  Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah.  And Aaron returned unto Moses unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the plague was stayed.”

(Note: You really ought to do a better job at thorough Bible study before spouting forth such declarations.)
 

On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

3) The glory cloud is at ground level, not linked to clouds in the sky.

This is NOT precisely true.  In a few passages, Scripture indicates that the Lord God descended or came down in the cloud.  Now, by definition if the Lord God descended unto the ground level in the cloud, then He and the cloud descended and came down FROM the sky level (which is just as will occur in our Lord Jesus Christ’s coming – He will descend and come down in the clouds from the sky level unto the ground level, in like manner as he ascended).

Exodus 33:9 – “And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.”

Exodus 34:5 – “And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.”

Numbers 11:25 – “And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.”

Numbers 12:5 – “And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.”
 

On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

4) In Acts 1, the cloud that received Jesus is not identified as a glory cloud, but is treated just as a regular cloud.

Indeed, that is true. 

Thus we are moved to consider the glorious sovereignty and righteousness of the Lord (Jehovah) God as reported in Psalm 97:1-6 – “The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.  Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.  A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.  His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled.  The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.  The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.”

Thus we are moved to consider the glorious greatness and majesty of the Lord (Jehovah) God as reported in Psalm 104:1-3 – “Bless the LORD, O my soul.  O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.  Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind.”

Thus we are moved to consider the glorious exaltation and authority of the Son of Man, our Lord Jesus Christ, as reported in Daniel 7:13-14 – “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

(Note: Ezekiel 1 is another passage worthy of consideration for this matter, especially verse 1 in relation to verse 28.)
 

Quote

5) Glory cloud is always used in a singular sense, but judgment clouds are usually used in the plural. There are no "glory clouds". 

First, whereas Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Revelation 1:7 all use the word “clouds” in the plural, the parallel passage of Luke 21:27 uses the phrase “a cloud” in the singular for the same event.  Even so, the singular or plural usage of the word “cloud(s)” may not be as distinctive for this matter as you are seeking to make it.

Second, whereas Exodus 19:16, Exodus 24:15-18, and Deuteronomy 5:22 all use the word “cloud” in the singular in connection with the glory of the Lord (Jehovah) God on Mount Sinai, Deuteronomy 4:11 uses the word “clouds” in the plural to describe the same event.

Third, as I have demonstrated in contradiction with your point #2) above, the “glory cloud” itself is indeed found sometimes in connection with judgment.  Therefore, the claim that “judgment clouds” are usually used in the plural is somewhat faulty.

Fourth, if you desire to handle this matter with this amount of precision, then we should consider with the same amount of precision those passages from the Old Testament that you suggested to support the truth of “judgment clouds.”  In an earlier posting you suggested that we consider the following four Old Testament passages: Isaiah 19:1; Ezekiel 30:3; Joel 2:2; Zephaniah 1:15.  Now, that suggestion was given with the claim that these passages would help us to understand the prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7.  So then, what are the precise elements in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 for which we should be seeking a connection with these Old Testament passages.  In the first place, we find the element of clouds.  In the second place, we find the element of our Lord’s personal presence in and with those clouds.  Do we find these two elements also in the Old Testament passages that you have suggested?

Concerning Isaiah 19:1 – “The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.”  Although this verses uses the word “cloud” in the singular, rather than in the plural, it certainly does speak about the personal presence of the Lord coming in and with a cloud for the purpose of judgment.

Concerning Ezekiel 30:3 – “For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.”  This verse speaks concerning “the day of the LORD” as being “a cloudy day,” (that is – a day of clouds, in the plural).  Certainly then, this verse connects the Lord’s judgment with a day of clouds.  However, does the context of this verse indicate that the personal presence of the Lord comes in and with those clouds?  Actually, it does not.  Rather, the context speaks about a sword coming against the Egyptians and their allies, so as to bring desolations and destruction upon them.  Furthermore, Ezekiel 30:10 reveals that this sword represents the military might of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.  As such, this judgment day of clouds does NOT involve the coming of the Lord’s personal presence, but involves the Lord’s judgment through the armies of Nebuchadnezzar.  Even so, this passage does not involve the same elements as Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7.

Concerning Joel 2:1-2 – “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.”  This passage speaks concerning “the day of the LORD” as “a day of clouds;” therefore, it does connect the Lord’s judgment with “a day of clouds.”  However, this passage and its context does NOT involve the coming of the Lord’s personal presence in and with those clouds.  Rather, it involves the coming of “a great people and a strong” with those clouds.  Indeed, the entire context Joel 2:2-11 continues to describe the coming of this great and strong people.  Even so, this passage speaks, not about the coming of the personal presence of the Lord, but about the Lord’s judgment through the coming of a great army against the children of Israel.  Only Joel 2:11 indicates the Lord’s voice would be UTTERED before that great and strong army.  On the other hand, when the Lord God’s personal presence is mentioned within the context of Joel 2, it is mentioned in connection with deliverance and blessing. (See Joel 2:27)  So then, the context of Joel 2 does not reveal that the coming of the Lord in and with clouds in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 is necessarily intended to communicated the Lord’s coming with judgment, but rather reveals the coming of the Lord Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 might be intended to communicate the Lord’s coming with deliverance and blessing for His own (even as we find in Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27, and Luke 21:28).

Concerning Zephaniah 1:15-16 – “That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.”  This passage speaks concerning “the great day of the LORD” (see verse 14) as “a day of wrath” and “a day of clouds and thick darkness;” therefore, it does indeed connect the Lord’s judgment with “a day of clouds.”  Furthermore, the context of this passage does indicate the coming of the Lord’s personal presence. (See Zephaniah 1:7)  However, the context of all three chapters in the Book of Zephaniah reveals that this judgment will end with a remnant from among the children of Israel coming to repentance and thereby finding deliverance and blessing. (See Zephaniah 3:9-20)  As such, the entire prophecy of Zephaniah does provide an Old Testament parallel with the prophet utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27, wherein the context indicates the outpouring of judgment before the personal coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds, and indicates the blessing of deliverance and redemption at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds.

Finally, I would also suggest a consideration of Daniel 7:13-14 – “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”  This passage speaks concerning the coming in and with “the clouds of heaven,” not simply of the Lord (Jehovah) God, but of God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.  Even so, this passage is very closely parallel with the prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7.  Yet this passage does NOT focus upon the judgment of the Lord.  Rather, it focusses upon the sovereign authority of the Lord Jesus Christ in receiving and establishing His literal reign over the whole earth.  As such, this passage runs parallel with the prophecy of Revelation 19-20 concerning our Lord Jesus Christ’s Second Coming (in the clouds) to initiate and establish his thousand year reign over the whole earth.  Will that Second Coming involve judgment?  Indeed, Revelation 19 (and 2 Thessalonians 1:5-9) reveals that is will.  Will that Second Coming also involve deliverance and blessing?  Indeed, Revelation 20 (and 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10) reveals that it will.

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22 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Exodus 24:15-18 – “And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.  And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.  And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.  And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.”

Still, a very different thing, a singular cloud on the ground, a glory cloud vs. clouds in the sky.  Still, a singular cloud on the ground not connected to judgment vs. clouds in the sky connected to judgment.  

Thus we are moved to consider the glorious sovereignty and righteousness of the Lord (Jehovah) God as reported in Psalm 97:1-6 – “The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.  Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.  A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.  His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled.  The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.  The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.”

Psalm 97 is not a glory cloud.  It's another example of "clouds" being used figuratively for judgement.   You're making my case for me.

Exodus 34:5  – “And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.”

Exodus 34 is a glory cloud, singular, on the ground, and not connected to judgment.

Concerning Isaiah 19:1 – “The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.”  Although this verses uses the word “cloud” in the singular, rather than in the plural, it certainly does speak about the personal presence of the Lord coming in and with a cloud for the purpose of judgment.

There are no historical reports of anyone actually seeing the Lord riding on a cloud.   How did all of Egypt miss that?  The notion of riding a cloud is absurd if taken literally, which is the nature of idioms. Figurative language doesn't always have to be identical.  "Cloud" doesn't always have to be plural to be used figuratively.    Riding a cloud is a variation of coming in the clouds, both indicate judgment from the Lord. 

Finally, I would also suggest a consideration of Daniel 7:13-14 – “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.  

(Daniel 7:13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Interpreted: (v22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High.

Visions and dreams should be taken symbolically, by default.  And, when Daniel's vision is interpreted, coming with the clouds is directly interpreted as judgement.   You continue to make my case for me.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

1) The glory cloud in the OT is a physical manifestation showing God's presence.  Jesus' presence himself does this, making the glory cloud purposeless.  

On 7/10/2018 at 11:58 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, often in the Old Testament it appears that the “glory cloud” itself is the very manifestation of the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory, whereas in the New Testament the Lord Jesus Christ Himself is the express image and very embodiment of the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory.  Yet the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds allows there to be connection between the Cloud of Glory within the Old Testament with the Glory (Christ Himself) in clouds within the New Testament prophecies.

Furthermore, it is not precisely accurate to indicates that connection between cloud(s) and the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory in the Old Testament is always such that the cloud(s) are the very manifestation of that glory.  When the Lord (Jehovah) God came down upon Mount Sinai, the cloud ITSELF is not presented as the manifestation of the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory.  Rather, Scripture indicates that the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory was within the cloud and surrounded by the cloud.

Exodus 24:15-18 – “And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.  And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.  And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.  And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.”

(Note: Ezekiel 1 provides a similar case.)

25 minutes ago, Brother D said:

Still, a very different thing, a singular cloud on the ground, a glory cloud vs. clouds in the sky.  Still, a singular cloud on the ground not connected to judgment vs. clouds in the sky connected to judgment.  

You seem to be having a hard time with understanding the context of my answers.  My above answer did NOT concern the matter of the "glory cloud" in relation to the ground or the sky.  (Note: I handled that matter in my posting above in response to your point #3, about which you seem to have made no response at all.)  Rather, my above answer concerned the matter of whether in the Old Testament the cloud in relation to the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory was always itself the manifestation of that glory.  The case of Exodus 24:15-18 demonstrates a case wherein the cloud itself was NOT the actual manifestation of the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory, but a case wherein the cloud was a literal cloud that simply covered and surrounded the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory.

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On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

2) The glory cloud in the OT is not linked to judgment.

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:58 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

This is simply a FALSE statement.

Exodus 14:23-25 – “And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.  And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, and took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.”

Numbers 12:4-10 – “And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation.  And they three came out.  And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.  And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.  My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?  And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.  And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.”

Numbers 16:41-50 – “But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD.  And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared.  And Moses and Aaron came before the tabernacle of the congregation.  And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment.  And they fell upon their faces.  And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.  And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people.  And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed.  Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah.  And Aaron returned unto Moses unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the plague was stayed.”

(Note: You really ought to do a better job at thorough Bible study before spouting forth such declarations.)

44 minutes ago, Brother D said:

 

I notice that you did not make any comment or acknowledgement at all unto my above indication concerning the error of your point #2.  I wonder why not.

(Note: By the way, if the "glory cloud" of the Old Testament can be shown to be connected with judgement at times, as per the above passages, then falls away your attempt to exclude the Old Testament passages about the "glory cloud" from being considered as help in understanding the prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27.)

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
added parenthetical note

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On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

3) The glory cloud is at ground level, not linked to clouds in the sky.

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:58 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

This is NOT precisely true.  In a few passages, Scripture indicates that the Lord God descended or came down in the cloud.  Now, by definition if the Lord God descended unto the ground level in the cloud, then He and the cloud descended and came down FROM the sky level (which is just as will occur in our Lord Jesus Christ’s coming – He will descend and come down in the clouds from the sky level unto the ground level, in like manner as he ascended).

Exodus 33:9 – “And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.”

Exodus 34:5 – “And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.”

Numbers 11:25 – “And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.”

Numbers 12:5 – “And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.”

40 minutes ago, Brother D said:

 

I notice that you did not make any comment or acknowledgement at all unto my above indication concerning the error of your point #3.  I wonder why not.

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40 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

You seem to be having a hard time with understanding the context of my answers.  My above answer did NOT concern the matter of the "glory cloud" in relation to the ground or the sky.  (Note: I handled that matter in my posting above in response to your point #3, about which you seem to have made no response at all.)  Rather, my above answer concerned the matter of whether in the Old Testament the cloud in relation to the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory was always itself the manifestation of that glory.  The case of demonstrates a case wherein the cloud itself was NOT the actual manifestation of the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory, but a case wherein the cloud was a literal cloud that simply covered and surrounded the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory.

Au contraire, I did respond regarding #3.  I replied to one of your verse examples, "Exodus 34 is a glory cloud, singular, on the ground, and not connected to judgment."  You gave this verse, Exodus 34:5 to attempt to prove God "came down in the cloud... FROM the sky level" (emphases yours).  But, the verse says " the Lord descended in the cloud", not "from a cloud", so the cloud could very well have been on the ground.   Also, in the previous chapter, Exodus 33:10, we're told "the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door" which implicitly is the same cloud mentioned in the next chapter.  The cloud in the shape of a pillar is identified as being on the ground.

You wish to ignore the very different contextual treatment of the glory cloud from clouds symbolizing judgment.   When the Gospels tell us of Jesus would come in the clouds, clouds representing judgment fits very well.  Jesus coming on glory clouds doesn't fit, because there never is glory clouds, there never is a glory cloud in the sky, and the glory cloud is not used in the context of judgment.

 

Edited by Brother D

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39 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I notice that you did not make any comment or acknowledgement at all unto my above indication concerning the error of your point #2.  I wonder why not.

#2, I said glory clouds are not linked to judgement.

Your first verse example to attempt to refute me:

Exodus 14:23-25 – “And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.  And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, and took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.”

Arguably, this isn't a glory cloud, but just a tool God used to help the Israelites escape the Egyptians.  It fails the idiom test because it very much serves a function and is not absurd, unlike using clouds in the phrase like "Jesus will come in the clouds", therefor it isn't a symbol of judgment.  But, to the point, it is not linked to judgment.  The Egyptians aren't being judged.  They're just being stymied in their pursuit.  

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On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

3) The glory cloud is at ground level, not linked to clouds in the sky.

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:58 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

This is NOT precisely true.  In a few passages, Scripture indicates that the Lord God descended or came down in the cloud.  Now, by definition if the Lord God descended unto the ground level in the cloud, then He and the cloud descended and came down FROM the sky level (which is just as will occur in our Lord Jesus Christ’s coming – He will descend and come down in the clouds from the sky level unto the ground level, in like manner as he ascended).

Exodus 33:9 – “And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.”

Exodus 34:5 – “And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.”

Numbers 11:25 – “And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.”

Numbers 12:5 – “And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.”

1 hour ago, Brother D said:

Exodus 34 is a glory cloud, singular, on the ground, and not connected to judgment.

5 minutes ago, Brother D said:

Au contraire, I did respond regarding #3.  I replied to one of your verse examples, "Exodus 34 is a glory cloud, singular, on the ground, and not connected to judgment."  You gave this verse, Exodus 34:5 to attempt to prove God "came down in the cloud... FROM the sky level" (emphases yours).  But, the verse says " the Lord descended in the cloud", not "from a cloud", so the cloud could very well have been on the ground.   Also, in the previous chapter, Exodus 33:10, we're told "the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door" which implicitly is the same cloud mentioned in the next chapter.  The cloud in the shape of a pillar is identified as being on the ground.

You wish to ignore the very different contextual treatment of the glory cloud from clouds symbolizing judgment.   When the Gospels tell us of Jesus would come in the clouds, clouds representing judgment fits very well.  Jesus coming on glory clouds doesn't fit, because there never is glory clouds, there never is a glory cloud in the sky, and the glory cloud is not used in the context of judgment.

Ah, I see.  I missed the intention of your comment due to the ordering of your comments.  I do apologize for so missing it.

Well now, my quote above does NOT say anything about the Lord descending "from a cloud."  Rather, my quote is as follows:

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:58 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In a few passages, Scripture indicates that the Lord God descended or came down in the cloud.  Now, by definition if the Lord God descended unto the ground level in the cloud, then He and the cloud descended and came down FROM the sky level (which is just as will occur in our Lord Jesus Christ’s coming – He will descend and come down in the clouds from the sky level unto the ground level, in like manner as he ascended). (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

I did NOT indicate that the Lord descended from the cloudy sky level out of the clouds to the ground level.  Rather, I indicated that the Lord AND the cloud descended from the sky level to the ground level.  In fact, Exodus 33:9 specifically states that "THE CLOUDY PILLAR descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle."  Notice the order of the events.  First, the cloudy pillar descends (from some higher level, as per the definition of the verb "descend"); and THEN the cloudy pillar "stood at the door of the tabernacle."  So then, the door of the tabernacle is at the ground level; and the cloudy pillar first descended from sky level to that ground level of the tabernacle.  In like manner, at His coming our Lord Jesus Christ will not simply descend out of the clouds to the ground level, but will descend in the clouds to the ground level.

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19 hours ago, Brother D said:

#2, I said glory clouds are not linked to judgement.

Your first verse example to attempt to refute me:

Quote

Exodus 14:23-25 – “And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.  And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, and took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.”

Arguably, this isn't a glory cloud, but just a tool God used to help the Israelites escape the Egyptians.  It fails the idiom test because it very much serves a function and is not absurd, unlike using clouds in the phrase like "Jesus will come in the clouds", therefor it isn't a symbol of judgment.  But, to the point, it is not linked to judgment.  The Egyptians aren't being judged.  They're just being stymied in their pursuit.  

So then, "the pillar of fire and of the cloud" has nothing to do with that which is mentioned in Exodus 13:21-22, which is mentioned just 23 verses earlier??? 

Furthermore, "the pillar of fire and of the cloud" has nothing to do with that which is mentioned in Exodus 13:21-22 even though the definite article "the" is employed in the description -- not A pillar of fire and of a cloud, but "THE pillar of fire and of THE cloud"???

Finally, we are not to view this pillar of fire and of the cloud as linked to judgment even though the Egyptians themselves recognized it as the Lord Himself fighting for the Israelites AGAINST the Egyptians, and even though the Israelites then sang in Exodus 15 about the event, so describing it as an event wherein God in wrath consumed those who rose up against HIM???

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

5) Glory cloud is always used in a singular sense, but judgment clouds are usually used in the plural. There are no "glory clouds".  

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:58 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Fourth, if you desire to handle this matter with this amount of precision, then we should consider with the same amount of precision those passages from the Old Testament that you suggested to support the truth of “judgment clouds.”  In an earlier posting you suggested that we consider the following four Old Testament passages: Isaiah 19:1; Ezekiel 30:3; Joel 2:2; Zephaniah 1:15.  Now, that suggestion was given with the claim that these passages would help us to understand the prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7.  So then, what are the precise elements in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 for which we should be seeking a connection with these Old Testament passages.  In the first place, we find the element of clouds.  In the second place, we find the element of our Lord’s personal presence in and with those clouds.  Do we find these two elements also in the Old Testament passages that you have suggested?

Concerning Isaiah 19:1 – “The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.”  Although this verses uses the word “cloud” in the singular, rather than in the plural, it certainly does speak about the personal presence of the Lord coming in and with a cloud for the purpose of judgment.

2 hours ago, Brother D said:

There are no historical reports of anyone actually seeing the Lord riding on a cloud.   How did all of Egypt miss that?  The notion of riding a cloud is absurd if taken literally, which is the nature of idioms. Figurative language doesn't always have to be identical.  "Cloud" doesn't always have to be plural to be used figuratively.    Riding a cloud is a variation of coming in the clouds, both indicate judgment from the Lord. 

Nor did I make any claim from Isaiah 19:1 that anyone literally SAW the Lord riding upon a swift cloud, since Isaiah 19:1 does not say anything about anyone SEEING this.  (Note: It is worthy of notice, however, that the prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 DOES specifically say that everyone will SEE the Lord Jesus Christ when He comes "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.")  It appears that you may have missed the point of my comment concerning Isaiah 19:1, for my comment indicates my ACKNOWLEDGEMENT and AGREEMENT that Isaiah 19:1 presents a case of our Lord's coming with judgment clouds.  Nothing in my comment concerning Isaiah 19:1 was intended to argue against your claim for that passage (except the recognition that it uses the word "cloud" in the singular, rather than in the plural, which I do NOT view as being significant enough to cast it away as a case of a judgment cloud).

However, I do NOT acknowledge that this one passage makes your whole case concerning the intended meaning of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7, since there are various other options to be considered throughout the presentation of the Old Testament Scriptures (as per my earlier postings).

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7 hours ago, Brother D said:

The notion of riding a cloud is absurd if taken literally, which is the nature of idioms. 

Oh I see "Brother D"'s problem now.

It is absurd to think that this creation came about by God speaking in six days.

It is absurd to think of light being there without the sun.

It is absurd to think of a serpent talking.

It is absurd to think of the whole world being flooded.

It is absurd to think that one man could kill a thousand enemies with a donkey's jawbone.

It is absurd to think that a man could survive being swallowed by a whale.

It is absurd to think that 400 men could beat an army of tens of thousands.

It is absurd to think that the walls of a city could fall down by an army marching around it and shouting.

It is absurd to think that anyone could be born of a virgin.

It is absurd to think that God could be born as a man.

It is absurd to think that that man could be God manifest in the flesh.

It is absurd to think that man could die to pay for the sins of all men.

It is absurd to think that a man could be saved simply by faith in Christ through God's grace.

It is absurd to think the Bible means what it clearly says.

I feel sorry for you. I truly do.

How hard it must be to try to please God when you don't believe He is able to do such things as miracles.

And how desperately pointless it must be for you to try to please God without believing His Word can tell you the truth of what God wants.

He doesn't want you to please Him at all. He wants you to trust Him and what He has said.

Romans 10

9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

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9 hours ago, Brother D said:

There are no historical reports of anyone actually seeing the Lord riding on a cloud.   How did all of Egypt miss that? 

This is interesting.

I wonder if you can show me the Egyptian historical account of the Exodus - the slaves leaving and the army being resoundingly defeated?

Strangely, nations records of defeats are often either missing or rewritten.

It is hardly surprising that there is no Egyptian record of their defeate by One "Riding on  cloud". To acknowledge that would be to acknowledge both the defeat of their army by escaped slaves, and also that the God of the slaves was greater than their own gods.

Neither of these is common in any nation's history.

In any case, I get my information about what God can and can't do from the Bible, not from doubtful records of man's history.

Edited by DaveW

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2 hours ago, DaveW said:

I wonder if you can show me the Egyptian historical account of the Exodus - the slaves leaving and the army being resoundingly defeated?

The Bible leave no question that the Exodus was an historical event.  Ancient Hebrew documents support the Exodus.  And, in fact, there was an Israelite people that had have some kind of history.

The Bible doesn't establish that the Lord riding a cloud to Egypt was an actual historical event.  Ancient Hebrew documents do not support that anyone actually saw God riding a cloud to Egypt.  And, in fact, as a figure of speech, God coming to judge Egypt, the biblical reference works very well.

Edited by Brother D

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50 minutes ago, Brother D said:

The Bible leave no question that the Exodus was an historical event.  Ancient Hebrew documents support the Exodus.  And, in fact, there was an Israelite people that had have some kind of history.

The Bible doesn't establish that the Lord riding a cloud to Egypt was an actual historical event.  Ancient Hebrew documents do not support that anyone actually saw God riding a cloud to Egypt.  And, in fact, as a figure of speech, God coming to judge Egypt, the biblical reference works very well.

Very good - managed to totally avoid the point of the historical reference.

Why don't you try re-reading what I wrote and answer the ACTUAL point?

Oh that's right - you want to avoid the truth not understand it.....

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11 hours ago, DaveW said:

Very good - managed to totally avoid the point of the historical reference.

Why don't you try re-reading what I wrote and answer the ACTUAL point?

Oh that's right - you want to avoid the truth not understand it.....

Oh, I got your point.  You assume Egypt censored everyone who saw the Lord riding a swift cloud.  But, no one, Egypt or Israelite, has any record of anyone seeing the Lord riding a swift crowd.  Egypt didn't censor Israelite records.

Your position is that Egyptian history doesn't have record of the Exodus, so it means nothing that they don't have a record of the Lord riding a swift cloud.  I replied that we don't need Egyptian records because the Exodus is recorded in great detail in Israelite records.

Your Dispensationalist eschatology depends on you stubbornly insisting a reference to clouds can't be an idiom for judgement. 

Hmmm, maybe Jesus literally came riding clouds in 70 AD, and the Romans censored it.

Mark 13 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

When do you think the Temple Jesus pointed to will be built? In the Great Tribulation?

 

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19 hours ago, DaveW said:

Oh I see "Brother D"'s problem now.

It is absurd to think that this creation came about by God speaking in six days.

How is this creation coming about by God speaking in six days absurd?  If God spoke the universe into being, so be it.  

The Lord riding a swift cloud into Egypt isn't absurd, if taken literally, because it would require a divine act, but for many other reasons. It's absurd because riding a cloud is meaningless, because it's just vapor.  It's absurd because there's no reason for the Lord to ride a cloud.  It's absurd because what difference does it make if the cloud is  slow or fast?  It's absurd because the Bible doesn't treat is as a literal statement.  It's absurd to insist it must be literal when the Bible repeatedly uses "clouds" as an idiom for judgment.  It's absurd because "the Lord riding a swift cloud" works so much better as symbolic language: God is quickly bringing judgment upon Egypt.

While you might think I reject clear language, you should consider that people of your doctrinal view spend most of their time explaining why the Bible doesn't mean what it clearly says.  In Mark 13, I interpret one paragraph as symbolic, which includes Jesus coming on the clouds (and idiom for judgment), and the stars falling to an Earth (a symbol of powers being removed).  But, you reject the clear meaning  of the rest of the chapter: 

"Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down... Tell us when?... This generation..."  Why do you reject what the Bible clearly says?  Also, why do you reject that history clearly shows, that the Temple was destroyed in 70AD, within that generation?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Brother D

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On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

4) In Acts 1, the cloud that received Jesus is not identified as a glory cloud, but is treated just as a regular cloud.

On 7/10/2018 at 11:58 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, that is true. 

Thus we are moved to consider the glorious sovereignty and righteousness of the Lord (Jehovah) God as reported in Psalm 97:1-6 – “The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.  Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.  A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.  His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled.  The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.  The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.”

Thus we are moved to consider the glorious greatness and majesty of the Lord (Jehovah) God as reported in Psalm 104:1-3 – “Bless the LORD, O my soul.  O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.  Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind.”

Thus we are moved to consider the glorious exaltation and authority of the Son of Man, our Lord Jesus Christ, as reported in Daniel 7:13-14 – “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

(Note: Ezekiel 1 is another passage worthy of consideration for this matter, especially verse 1 in relation to verse 28.)

On 7/11/2018 at 11:35 AM, Brother D said:

Psalm 97 is not a glory cloud.  It's another example of "clouds" being used figuratively for judgement.   You're making my case for me.

Certainly, in Psalm 97 our Lord God's judgment is referenced.  However, His judgment is NOT the ONLY characteristic that is mentioned.  Therefore, it seems strange that the reference unto "clouds" should be narrowed only unto the judgment of the Lord when so much more about the Lord our God is involved.

Psalm 97:1-12

1 The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.
2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.
4 His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled.
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.
7 Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols: worship him, all ye gods.
8 Zion heard, and was glad; and the daughters of Judah rejoiced because of thy judgments, O LORD.
9 For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.
10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
11 Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.
12 Rejoice in the LORD, ye righteous; and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.

Even so, in this Psalm we see --

1.  The Sovereignty of the Lord
2.  The Righteousness (Holiness) of the Lord
3.  The Judgment of the Lord
4.  The Presence of the Lord
5.  The Glory of the Lord
6.  The Greatness of the Lord
7.  The Deliverance of the Lord

Why then would we narrow the reference of the "clouds" ONLY unto the judgment of the Lord?  Well, actually, I myself would NOT so narrow my focus; but would seek to consider the ENTIRE context of the Psalm.

However, even if for the sake of argument I granted a narrowing of the reference to the clouds, I would narrow the focus to the single verse statement wherein the clouds are mentioned --

Psalm 97:2

"Clouds and darkness are round about him:
righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne
."

The parallelism within the two clauses of this verse indicates that the phrase "round about him" is equivalent to the phrase "the habitation of his throne."  Furthermore, the parallelism of this verse that the phrase "clouds and darkness" is equivalent to the phrase "righteousness and judgment."  As such, if we seek to the narrow the reference to the clouds, then these clouds are NOT simply "judgment clouds," but are actually "righteousness and judgment clouds."  Now, later in Psalm 97 the judgment is enacted against his enemies, as per verses 3-5 -- "A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.  His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled.  The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth."  Furthermore, in Psalm 97 the righteousness is enacted for the deliverance of the righteous, as per verses 10-12 -- "Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.  Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.  Rejoice in the LORD, ye righteous; and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness."  Finally, in Psalm 97 both the righteousness and judgment of the Lord is enacted on the foundation of His sovereign authority, as per verses 1 & 9, all for His glory, as per verses 6 & 12.  It appears to me that this is very helpful for our understanding in relation to the prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27, wherein we observe BOTH the judgment AND the deliverance of the Lord in the context of our Lord Jesus Christ's coming "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."  Indeed, this fits quite well as a prophecy of our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming, wherein He shall come with Both judgment and deliverance (as per 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10) and wherein.He shall come with clouds (as per Acts 1:11).

However, if we desire to NARROW the reference to the clouds in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 only unto one characteristic of our Lord, then it would only seem right to narrow the reference unto that characteristic which is DIRECTLY connected with the clouds -- "In the clouds of heaven WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY."  (NOT "in the clouds with power and great judgment")  Remember, it is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself who said "WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY;" whereas He did NOT say "with judgment."

 

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On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

5) Glory cloud is always used in a singular sense, but judgment clouds are usually used in the plural. There are no "glory clouds".  

On 7/10/2018 at 11:58 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Fourth, if you desire to handle this matter with this amount of precision, then we should consider with the same amount of precision those passages from the Old Testament that you suggested to support the truth of “judgment clouds.”  In an earlier posting you suggested that we consider the following four Old Testament passages: Isaiah 19:1; Ezekiel 30:3; Joel 2:2; Zephaniah 1:15.  Now, that suggestion was given with the claim that these passages would help us to understand the prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7.  So then, what are the precise elements in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 for which we should be seeking a connection with these Old Testament passages.  In the first place, we find the element of clouds.  In the second place, we find the element of our Lord’s personal presence in and with those clouds.  Do we find these two elements also in the Old Testament passages that you have suggested?

. . . . . . . . .

Finally, I would also suggest a consideration of Daniel 7:13-14 – “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”  This passage speaks concerning the coming in and with “the clouds of heaven,” not simply of the Lord (Jehovah) God, but of God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.  Even so, this passage is very closely parallel with the prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7.  Yet this passage does NOT focus upon the judgment of the Lord.  Rather, it focuses upon the sovereign authority of the Lord Jesus Christ in receiving and establishing His literal reign over the whole earth.  As such, this passage runs parallel with the prophecy of Revelation 19-20 concerning our Lord Jesus Christ’s Second Coming (in the clouds) to initiate and establish his thousand year reign over the whole earth.  Will that Second Coming involve judgment?  Indeed, Revelation 19 (and 2 Thessalonians 1:5-9) reveals that is will.  Will that Second Coming also involve deliverance and blessing?  Indeed, Revelation 20 (and 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10) reveals that it will.

On 7/11/2018 at 11:35 AM, Brother D said:

(Daniel 7:13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Interpreted: (v22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High.

Visions and dreams should be taken symbolically, by default.  And, when Daniel's vision is interpreted, coming with the clouds is directly interpreted as judgement.   You continue to make my case for me.

First, I notice that when you proceeded to reference my quotation of Daniel 7:13-14, you chose drop off verse 14.  That seems somewhat revealing concerning your manner of Bible study in relation to context.  

What then is the full quote?

Daniel 7:13-14 – “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. 

I also notice that when you brought forward the explanation for this portion of Daniel's vision, you also dropped off half of Daniel 7:22 and further neglected to reference the further explanation of Daniel 7:27.

What then is the full explanation?

Daniel 7:22 -- "Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom."

Daniel 7:27 -- "And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."

It appears to me that these verses do NOT simply speak about judgment, but that they speak about judgment in relation to the establishing of our Lord Jesus Christ's kingdom upon the earth.  Indeed, it appears to me that these verses are indeed speaking about the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  So then, what was my explanation above?

Quote

Yet this passage does NOT focus upon the judgment of the Lord.  Rather, it focuses upon the sovereign authority of the Lord Jesus Christ in receiving and establishing His literal reign over the whole earth.  As such, this passage runs parallel with the prophecy of Revelation 19-20 concerning our Lord Jesus Christ’s Second Coming (in the clouds) to initiate and establish his thousand year reign over the whole earth.  Will that Second Coming involve judgment?  Indeed, Revelation 19 (and 2 Thessalonians 1:5-9) reveals that is will.  Will that Second Coming also involve deliverance and blessing?  Indeed, Revelation 20 (and 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10) reveals that it will.

Do I acknowledge that judgment is involved in this event?  I certainly do.  Yet do I also point out that the focus is upon the establishing of our Lord Jesus Christ's thousand year reign?  Yes I do.

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8 hours ago, Brother D said:

Your Dispensationalist eschatology depends on you stubbornly insisting a reference to clouds can't be an idiom for judgement. 

Although you did not make this comment to me, I do wish to respond by giving some clarity concerning the my position of Bible study on this matter.

I do NOT at all insist that a reference to clouds cannot be an idiom for judgment.  In fact, within a number of passages I believe that clouds are INDEED used as an idiom for judgment.  However, the position of my Bible study also holds FIRMLY that the reference to clouds in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 is NOT an idiom for judgment, but is a reference unto LITERAL clouds with a visual connection to our Lord Jesus Christ's "power and great glory" at the event of His Second Coming.  ALL four of these passages specifically mention that people will SEE the Lord Jesus Christ coming "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."  None of the passages that you have presented as cases wherein clouds are used as an idiom for judgment mention anything about anyone actually SEEING the Lord in His coming with that judgment.  This one element itself separates these New Testament passages from your Old Testament cases.  Indeed, I believe that these verses teach --

1.  Our Lord Jesus Christ will literally (personally and bodily) come.
2.  Our Lord Jesus Christ will literally come in and with literal clouds.
3.  Our Lord Jesus Christ will literally come with power and great glory.
4.  Our Lord Jesus Christ will literally be seen by all at His coming "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
 

Another point that is worthy of consideration is the ordering of events that surrounds the prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27.  

1.  Matthew 24:15-20 & Mark 13:14-18 reference the judgment of "the abomination of desolation."
2.  Matthew 24:21-28 & Mark 13:19-23 reference the judgment of "great tribulation" to start with and follow after "the abomination of desolation."
3.  Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24-25, & Luke 21:25-26 reference the judgment of the signs in the heavens to follow "immediately after the tribulation of those days."
4.  Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, & Luke 21:27 reference the sight of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" in sequence then upon the completion of the judgment of the signs in the heavens.
5.  Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, & Luke 21:28 reference the gathering and deliverance of the Lord's elect from across the whole earth in sequence then upon the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Now, this ordering of events actually reveals that the judgments occur BEFORE the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, not after.  Furthermore, this ordering of events reveals that what will FOLLOW upon the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is DELIVERANCE for His elect.  Thus even the contexts of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:27, and Luke 21:28 do NOT indicate that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" will be a signal of judgment, but rather that it will a signal of DELIVERANCE.  In light of this, maybe it would be better to start calling these clouds "deliverance clouds," rather than "judgment clouds."  

As for myself, I would prefer to call them clouds representing SOVEREIGN POWER and DIVINE GLORY.

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9 hours ago, Brother D said:

Your Dispensationalist eschatology depends on you stubbornly insisting a reference to clouds can't be an idiom for judgement. 

This is simply a misrepresentation on many levels.

I have already said plainly that I am not a "traditional dispensationalist", so you referencing me as such is simply deceitful. But you have shown that to be your character in many of your posts.

Secondly, I take each passage as it is presented: the Bible always makes it plain when it is speaking in figurative language.

You however make things to be "idioms", or "symbolic", or "representational" for no other reason than that it fits your ideology.

Even when your doing so goes specifically against the meaning of words.

As to the absurd referencing, I certainly believe that God created everything by His Word in six days, but who knows what you believe?

You make something to be figurative based on whether YOU think it is absurd or not.

My list includes things that many people consider impossible or absurd.

That - by your own definition - is the standard for whether or not something is literal,  but who knows what YOU consider to be absurd?

You are the standard by which that decision is made.

I prefer to let the Bible tell me in clear words when it is not literal.

It is easier to let God tell me through His Word, than for me to guess according to my own ideas (like you do).

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On 7/11/2018 at 11:35 PM, Brother D said:

There are no historical reports of anyone actually seeing the Lord riding on a cloud.   How did all of Egypt miss that?  The notion of riding a cloud is absurd if taken literally, which is the nature of idioms. 

Hey folks, I want to take the time to point out a few things about "Brother D"'s answers to me.

It is he, not I that brought up the lack of historical record. He seems now to be accusing me of relying on historical record to refute him, which I am not. He is relying on historical record to make a point.

Further he has set his standard for "figurative language" in this section which I have quoted, and he has set it with two statements: historical reports, and absurd notions.

In response I pointed out a known historical mechanism: that losers don't often record their losses. In other words, my point about history is that IT CANNOT BE RELIED UPON in every instance, especially in the case of a loss.

Since there is no direct reference in Egyptian history to the Exodus OF COURSE there is no reference to anyone riding clouds IN THAT EVENT.

That should be obvious to anyone not trying to misrepresent the issues.

 

Look at his responses to me and see the way that he is trying to manipulate the conversation. It is he, not me, who is relying on historical record, and it is He, not me who is relying on his definition of what is absurd to decide what is literal.

As to the actual cloud issue itself - I have not addressed it either way. Pastor Scott is doing a fine job of showing the Biblical truth and need neither my help nor interference.

I was simply pointing out the faulty arguments and the twisting nature of "Brother D"'s posts.

"Brother D" is trying to misrepresent my posts to avoid looking foolish.

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15 hours ago, DaveW said:

I take each passage as it is presented: the Bible always makes it plain when it is speaking in figurative language.

You however make things to be "idioms", or "symbolic", or "representational" for no other reason than that it fits your ideology.

You do not take each passage in the Bible as it is presented.  Show me how you take this plainly: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass... for the time is at hand.

You are wrong in your accusation that I take something non-literary for no other reason that it fits my ideology.  Completely independent of anyone's ideology, an idiom is usually pretty obvious in that it says something that has no obvious relationship to the context, if taken literally.  But, if taken non-literally, it explains the context.

Let's, apply this rule to Jesus coming in the clouds.  What does the context say Jesus will do when he arrives. What function to the clouds serve?  How does the context discuss the travel-by-clouds statement?    See, no obvious relationship to the context.

If taken non-literally,  Jesus coming in the clouds tells that Jesus is executing judgement, because "clouds" is a symbol of judgment.  And, judgement is what the context of Mark 13 (and parallel passages) and Revelation describe. See, as an idiom, Jesus coming in the clouds explains the context.

It's true that my use of the word "absurd" is vague, and maybe subjective, but I have given a number of details that alert the reader to the presence of an idiom. And, absurdity is valid sign.  Some things are indisputably absurd (to everyone not in deep denial and stubbornness) because they make no sense if taken literally.  Jesus said the stars would fall. Stars cannot fall, any more than you can go North of the North pole.  And, in spite of the claim of those in deep denial, meteors are not stars.  Besides, the Bible in places explicitly uses clouds and stars as symbols. Oh, and "stars falling" have no obvious relationship to the context, if taken literally.  But, if taken as an idiom, they explain the context.  

 

 

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16 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In fact, within a number of passages I believe that clouds are INDEED used as an idiom for judgment.  However, the position of my Bible study also holds FIRMLY that the reference to clouds in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 is NOT an idiom for judgment, but is a reference unto LITERAL clouds with a visual connection to our Lord Jesus Christ's "power and great glory" at the event of His Second Coming.  ALL four of these passages specifically mention that people will SEE the Lord Jesus Christ coming "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."  None of the passages that you have presented as cases wherein clouds are used as an idiom for judgment mention anything about anyone actually SEEING the Lord in His coming with that judgment.  This one element itself separates these New Testament passages from your Old Testament cases.  Indeed, I believe that these verses teach --

Sorry to conflate you with others.  There are others who deny clouds are ever used as an idiom for judgment.   

As for "seeing", that is a difference in detail between NT and OT cloud references, but I think a difference of style, not nature.  I have discussed the nature of idioms, such as an idiom has no obvious connection to the context, if taken literally.  But, if taken non-literally, it explains the context.  By this criteria, Jesus coming in the clouds appears to be an idiom.  Seeing Jesus coming on the clouds doesn't change that.  

The use of the word "see" could mean people will literally see Jesus.  But, it could also mean people will see what the idiom respresents. 

1.  Our Lord Jesus Christ will literally (personally and bodily) come.


2.  Our Lord Jesus Christ will literally come in and with literal clouds.
3.  Our Lord Jesus Christ will literally come with power and great glory.
4.  Our Lord Jesus Christ will literally be seen by all at His coming "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

I believe in a physical return of Christ, but that doesn't mean any "coming" is that physical return of Christ.  I don't believe clouds have anything to do with the physical return of Christ (beyond, maybe, Jesus appearing from a cloud).   It's Jesus' nature to come in power and great glory, even if just in judgement.  

Now, this ordering of events actually reveals that the judgments occur BEFORE the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, not after.  Furthermore, this ordering of events reveals that what will FOLLOW upon the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is DELIVERANCE for His elect.  Thus even the contexts of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:27, and Luke 21:28 do NOT indicate that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" will be a signal of judgment, but rather that it will a signal of DELIVERANCE.  In light of this, maybe it would be better to start calling these clouds "deliverance clouds," rather than "judgment clouds." 

The judgement isn't the violence of the tribulation itself, but the result of the tribulation and what is symbolized by the sun, moon, and stars being darkened, the removal of the powers represented by those lights.  The Greek word translated "after" (after the tribulation) is usually translated "with".  This is not one event (tribulation) followed by a distinctly different event (coming in the clouds).

I don't think your analysis is bad, as far as it goes.  But, the issue is making the whole chapter of Mark 13 (and related verses) work.  Jesus says that Temple then standing will be destroyed.  When asked when, he tells his followers that they will first be persecuted.  He tells them when they see a certain something, to run for the mountains. And, he says happen before his generation passes. Those things did happen how and when Jesus said, but if you take literally "coming in the clouds" than you have to pervert the meaning of the rest of what Jesus said.  E.g., "This generation" means his generation.  The grammar and context does not support the claim Jesus meant a future generation.

 

 

 

 

 

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