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How to Understand Revelation and Daniel

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Celina

The catching up of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) will happen before the day of the Lord(Tribulation)). Since Israel has gathered back to Israel the land the catching up of the church is near it is near and hasteth greatly.

 

Zephaniah 1:14-2:3

14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

1Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;         (Israel)

2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.

3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

 

Celina Live for Jesus.

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On 1/31/2018 at 10:54 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Eric,

I so agree with you there bro. Now do all Baptists believe this? My cousin was a Baptist and he didn`t.

regards, Marilyn.

If they don't, they will soon when Jesus calls us up!

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7 hours ago, Eric Stahl said:

If they don't, they will soon when Jesus calls us up!

Hi Eric,

Great. Would you mind telling me (if it`s not too far off topic) what is the difference between Baptists and Independent Baptists?

regards, Marilyn.

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43 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Eric,

Great. Would you mind telling me (if it`s not too far off topic) what is the difference between Baptists and Independent Baptists?

regards, Marilyn.

Hi, Marilyn. Your question is a valid one, but it's not actually part of this thread.  Feel free to start a thread on the subject. Thanks. :11_blush:

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2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Eric,

Great. Would you mind telling me (if it`s not too far off topic) what is the difference between Baptists and Independent Baptists?

regards, Marilyn.

I go to an independent Baptist church now but I went to an independent Bible church for forty years and there was no difference between them. The Southern Baptist have an administration over the small churches.

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It's worse than a shame that many conservative churches have turned Revelation into esoteric nonsense to support destructive doctrines.   How to understand Revelation?  Forget everything you've been taught and read it honestly.  And, when you get stuck, check the Old Testament for explanations.    

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Some will tell you that "shortly come to pass" means something other than "shortly come to pass".  But, it's simple.  "Shortly come to pass" means "shortly come to pass".  Revelation 1:1 also tells us what kind of information is in the vision.  An angel "signified" the things that must shortly come to pass.  Signified means signs.  Revelation is signs, or symbols.  Symbols aren't suppose to be taken literally.  Revelation itself demonstrates repeatedly that its signs are non-literal.  

Revelation 1: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Some will now now say that "cometh with the clouds" means "cometh with the clouds".  Yet, they don't think "they also which pierced him" means "they also which pierced him." And, of course, they still don't think "shortly come to pass" means "shortly come to pass."  "Clouds" is an idiom, not to be taken literally.   Your first clue  of an idiom is that it's completely pointless to mention clouds, as if you'd need to see clouds in the sky to conform that the glorious coming of our Lord is indeed Him coming.  Look in the Old Testament to see what clouds mean.   To get you started, try Ezekiel 30:3, Joel 2:2, Zephaniah 1:15, and Isaiah 19:1.  Why does Revelation mention coming with the clouds?  It's not some random thought thrown in, but it's part of the introduction to Revelation.  The events of Revelation is the doom and gloom symbolized by clouds, judgement brought by Jesus.

Because Revelation speaks of events that shortly came to pass, those who pierced Him were still alive to see those events.  I'm not one of those people who insist it hasn't happened yet because we haven't yet seen locusts with human faces (Revelation 9:7), or whatever.

locust-rev9.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Ummmm..... ok

12 minutes ago, Brother D said:

It's worse than a shame that many conservative churches have turned Revelation into esoteric nonsense to support destructive doctrines.   How to understand Revelation?  Forget everything you've been taught and read it honestly.  And, when you get stuck, check the Old Testament for explanations.    

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Some will tell you that "shortly come to pass" means something other than "shortly come to pass".  But, it's simple.  "Shortly come to pass" means "shortly come to pass".  Revelation 1:1 also tells us what kind of information is in the vision.  An angel "signified" the things that must shortly come to pass.  Signified means signs.  Revelation is signs, or symbols.  Symbols aren't suppose to be taken literally.  Revelation itself demonstrates repeatedly that its signs are non-literal.  

Revelation 1: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Some will now now say that "cometh with the clouds" means "cometh with the clouds".  Yet, they don't think "they also which pierced him" means "they also which pierced him." And, of course, they still don't think "shortly come to pass" means "shortly come to pass."  "Clouds" is an idiom, not to be taken literally.   Your first clue  of an idiom is that it's completely pointless to mention clouds, as if you'd need to see clouds in the sky to conform that the glorious coming of our Lord is indeed Him coming.  Look in the Old Testament to see what clouds mean.   To get you started, try Ezekiel 30:3, Joel 2:2, Zephaniah 1:15, and Isaiah 19:1.  Why does Revelation mention coming with the clouds?  It's not some random thought thrown in, but it's part of the introduction to Revelation.  The events of Revelation is the doom and gloom symbolized by clouds, judgement brought by Jesus.

Because Revelation speaks of events that shortly came to pass, those who pierced Him were still alive to see those events.  I'm not one of those people who insist it hasn't happened yet because we haven't yet seen locusts with human faces (Revelation 9:7), or whatever.

locust-rev9.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey, how about heading over to the intro section and letting us all know something about yourself.

When and how were you saved?

What church are you affiliated with?

Edited by DaveW

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4 hours ago, Brother D said:

Revelation 1: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Some will now now say that "cometh with the clouds" means "cometh with the clouds".  Yet, they don't think "they also which pierced him" means "they also which pierced him." And, of course, they still don't think "shortly come to pass" means "shortly come to pass."  "Clouds" is an idiom, not to be taken literally.   Your first clue  of an idiom is that it's completely pointless to mention clouds, as if you'd need to see clouds in the sky to conform that the glorious coming of our Lord is indeed Him coming. 

Well, huh. And here I thought that the "clouds" had something to do with the following:

Matthew 24:30 -- "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Mark 13:26 -- "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."

Luke 21:27 -- "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

Acts 1:9-11 -- "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

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6 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Well, huh. And here I thought that the "clouds" had something to do with the following:

Matthew 24:30 -- "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Mark 13:26 -- "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."

Luke 21:27 -- "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

Acts 1:9-11 -- "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

 

The first three of those are idiomatic use of the word clouds.  They each are references to the great Tribulation, God's judgment upon Jerusalem.   They each appear in context where Jesus switches to symbolic language.  Take the verse prior to Matthew 24:30, v29, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"  It's impossible and purely absurd to take "stars falling from heaven" literally (stars can't fall, and if they did, just one would utterly destroy the Earth).   In the Old Testament, stars are used represent the patriarchs of Israel and in Revelation are used to represent angels (this isn't my opinion, but what scripture itself says). 

Jesus came in judgement (clouds) and removed the stars (the authority of old Israel), which is a symbolic way of giving the purpose of what the rest of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 describe in literal detail.

Acts 1 refers to a literal cloud.  The cloud actually served a function, to take Jesus out of sight, compare to the clouds in the other chapters which are pointless to take literally.  Acts 1 isn't in reference to judgement, unlike the other chapters.   Also, Acts 1 doesn't have a symbolic context, unlike "clouds" in the other chapters.  

I notice you ignored my OT verse references to the symbolic use of clouds for doom, gloom, and judgement.  

 

 

Edited by Brother D

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Bro. D,

I have found many instances in my Christian life where people always want to symbolize many parts of the book of Revelation, you seem to be one of them. While there are symbols of some things here, everything is not a symbol.

I have found in my studies that the Bible usually says what it means and means what it says. You say that what you have written is not your opinion, but Scripture. And yet you call what Scripture says "impossible". I might remind you with God all things are possible. If He says the stars will fall, then He does not mean angels will fall, He means stars.

According to man's reasoning it is impossible for the earth to stand still, and yet God accomplished it. Man's reasoning would assert that it is impossible for people to shout and bring down the walls of a mighty city, but Scripture records it.

I would caution against symbolizing what is clearly not a symbol and don't try to make God's word say something it doesn't say.

Clouds mean clouds and stars mean stars, not too hard to understand, especially in the light of Scripture such as: Bro. Scott posted: Acts 1:9-11 -- "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

It is plain to see here that the cloud that received Him was not the great tribulation, but rather a literal cloud. And the reference in this Scripture is a direct reference to how Jesus will return.

By your reasoning a cloud (tribulation) received Him out of their sight. I hope you can see how ridiculous this line of reasoning gets very quickly.

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16 hours ago, Brother D said:

I notice you ignored my OT verse references to the symbolic use of clouds for doom, gloom, and judgement.  

Brother D,

Indeed, I did not make reference unto your Old Testament passages.  I did not see any need to make reference unto various Old Testament passage that spoke about various DIFFERENT events and circumstances from Revelation 1:7 when I had the ability to reference four New Testament passages that actually spoke about the SAME event as Revelation 1:7.  Revelation 1:7 speaks about the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and so does Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Acts 1:9-11.  Whatever might be the meaning of cloud(s) is any one of these passages is likely to be the same meaning throughout all of these passages.  Now, as you yourself have acknowledged, Acts 1:9-11 speaks about a literal cloud.  According to Acts 1:9 our Lord Jesus Christ ascended into heaven literally in a literal cloud, and His disciples literally saw it literally happen.  Then in Acts 1:11 the angels prophesied that our Lord Jesus Christ would come again "IN LIKE MANNER" as they had just literally seen Him depart into heaven.  Interestingly, the ONE manner in which they had seen Him depart was by a literal CLOUD.  Thus it would appear that the manner of departing and coming again in and by literal cloud(s) is Biblically important.  Furthermore, since Acts 1:9-11 speaks concerning our Lord's departing and coming again in and by LITERAL cloud(s), and since Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 all speak about the manner of a cloud or clouds in relation to our Lord's coming again, it appears that we should take this reference to a cloud or clouds as LITERAL in ALL of these passages.

By the way --

16 hours ago, Brother D said:

The first three of those are idiomatic use of the word clouds.  They each are references to the great Tribulation, God's judgment upon Jerusalem.   They each appear in context where Jesus switches to symbolic language.  Take the verse prior to Matthew 24:30, v29, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"  It's impossible and purely absurd to take "stars falling from heaven" literally (stars can't fall, and if they did, just one would utterly destroy the Earth).   In the Old Testament, stars are used represent the patriarchs of Israel and in Revelation are used to represent angels (this isn't my opinion, but what scripture itself says). 

1.  It is neither "impossible" nor "purely absurd" for stars to fall from heaven literally when one considers the literal meaning of the word "stars" in Scripture.  In Genesis 1:1 we are told that the Lord our God created the planet earth.  Then in Genesis 1:14-16 we are told that the Lord our God created the sun, "the greater light to rule the day," the moon, "the lesser light to rule the night," and the stars also.  Thus we understand that the word "stars" encompasses EVERY physical body in space, except the planet earth, the earth's sun, and the earth's moon.  Indeed, the word "stars" encompasses all that we scientifically now describe as nebula, stars, planets, moons of various planets, asteroids, comets, meteors, etc.  Do any of these "stars" ever "fall" to the earth?  Indeed, even now some of them certainly DO.

2.  When used in a symbolic manner, the word "star(s)" is NOT strictly used in the Old Testament to represent the patriarchs of Israel, but is also used to represent others.

3.  When used in a symbolic manner, the word "star(s)" is NOT strictly used in the Book of the Revelation to represent angelic beings.  In fact, the word "star(s)" is used literally of stars in the Book of the Revelation, as well as symbolically of the seven "angels" (very possibly human messengers, rather than angelic beings) of the seven churches, of the twelve tribes of Israel, of angel beings, and of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself.  

4.  When used in a symbolic manner in the Old Testament, the word "cloud(s)" is not only used of our Lord God's judgment.  Rather, it is also used of our Lord God's presence, of our Lord God's glory, of our Lord God's authority, of our Lord God's holiness, of our Lord God's leadership, of our Lord God's power, of our Lord God's protection, of our Lord God's provision, of our Lord God's forgiveness, or our Lord God's favor, or our Lord God's anger.  So, how might we know the significance of the cloud(s) in the New Testament passages concerning the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ?  Maybe we should just learn from the wording of those passages themselves; for Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 all declare that our Lord's coming in the cloud(s) will be "WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY."  Seems that the focus is upon our Lord's power and our Lord's glory, not upon our Lord's judgment.  Will our Lord enact judgment at His Second Coming? Certainly He will.  Yet He will also enact deliverance and authority and provision, etc.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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9 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, I did not make reference unto your Old Testament passages.  I did not see any need to make reference unto various Old Testament passage that spoke about various DIFFERENT events and circumstances from Revelation 1:7 when I had the ability to reference four New Testament passages that actually spoke about the SAME event as Revelation 1:7.  Revelation 1:7 speaks about the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and so does Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Acts 1:9-11.  Whatever might be the meaning of cloud(s) is any one of these passages is likely to be the same meaning throughout all of these passages.  Now, as you yourself have acknowledged, Acts 1:9-11 speaks about a literal cloud. 

The OT, with phrases such as "Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt" proves that a phrase like "coming on the clouds" is a biblical idiom for judgement.   Your "different events" argument doesn't work for the three Gospel and Revelation cloud references, because these are all linked to judgement.  But, I submit that the Acts 1 cloud reference refers to a different event.  As I've already pointed out, this Acts event is not linked to any form of judgment and only here does a cloud serve a function.

It is neither "impossible" nor "purely absurd" for stars to fall from heaven literally when one considers the literal meaning of the word "stars" in Scripture. .  In Genesis 1:1 we are told that the Lord our God created the planet earth.  Then in Genesis 1:14-16 we are told that the Lord our God created the sun, "the greater light to rule the day," the moon, "the lesser light to rule the night," and the stars also.  Thus we understand that the word "stars" encompasses EVERY physical body in space, except the planet earth, the earth's sun, and the earth's moon.  Indeed, the word "stars" encompasses all that we scientifically now describe as nebula, stars, planets, moons of various planets, asteroids, comets, meteors, etc.  Do any of these "stars" ever "fall" to the earth?  Indeed, even now some of them certainly DO.

You give a false definition of stars by defining meteors and comets as stars so as to reduce "stars of heaven shall fall" to a mere meteor shower, in spite of the context implying something much grander.  Meteors and comets are, in fact, not stars.  Nothing in the Bible even remotely suggests that the authors of the Bible considered meteors and comets to be stars. 

When used in a symbolic manner, the word "star(s)" is NOT strictly used in the Book of the Revelation to represent angelic beings.  In fact, the word "star(s)" is used literally of stars in the Book of the Revelation, as well as symbolically of the seven "angels" (very possibly human messengers, rather than angelic beings) of the seven churches, of the twelve tribes of Israel, of angel beings, and of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. 

You know that stars are used in the OT and Revelation in a symbolic fashion.  Is there any place where you think the word star is used symbolically, even when not explicitly identified as something else?  Indeed, where in Revelation is any star ever treated literally?   Revelation is a vision, identified as signs (Rev 1:1). Everything in the vision, start to finish, is symbols.   You might be holding out for locusts with human faces, but I'm not.  And, while you're holding out, you're redefining words (while denying this blatant act) like "soon", "this generation"  and "star", for no reason other than their real meaning contradicts your doctrine.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Brother D said:

The OT, with phrases such as "Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt" proves that a phrase like "coming on the clouds" is a biblical idiom for judgement.   

So then, what does the following reveal that a phrase like “coming on the clouds” might represent?

Exodus 16:10 – “And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud.”

Exodus 19:9 – “And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever.  And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.”

Exodus 24:15-16 – “And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.  And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.”

Exodus 33:9-10 – “And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.  And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.”

Exodus 40:34-35 – “Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.  And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.”

Numbers 11:25 – “And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.”

Deuteronomy 4:10-13 – “Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.  And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.  And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.  And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.”

1 Kings 8:10-11 – “And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.”

2 Chronicles 5:13-14 – “It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD; so that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.”

Psalm 68:33-35 – “To him that rideth upon the heavens of heavens, which were of old; lo, he doth send out his voice, and that a mighty voice.  Ascribe ye strength unto God: his excellency is over Israel, and his strength is in the clouds.  O God, thou art terrible out of thy holy places: the God of Israel is he that giveth strength and power unto his people.  Blessed be God.”

Psalm 97:2 – “Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.”

Psalm 104:1-3 – “Bless the LORD, O my soul.  O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.  Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind.”

Isaiah 4:5 – “And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.”

Isaiah 44:22 – “I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.”

Ezekiel 10:3-4 – “Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.  Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD’S glory.”

Daniel 7:13-14 – “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

As I already indicated, the Lord's coming with clouds does NOT always indicate His judgment, but also can indicate His glory, His authority, His power, His holiness, etc.

So then, what do the verses in question themselves actually say about the cloud in relation to our Lord God’s character?

Matthew 24:30 – “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Mark 13:26 – “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.’

Luke 21:27 – “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

Why do we need to go fishing for meaning, when the meaning is right there in the verses themselves?

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On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 5:19 PM, Brother D said:

Signified means signs.  Revelation is signs, or symbols.  Symbols aren't suppose to be taken literally.

Rev 1:1
(1)  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
 

So where exactly do you get your definition of "Signified"?

Oh, I see - you made it up....

From Strong's Concordance:

G4591σημαίνω sēmainō say-mah'ee-no
From σῆμα sēma (a mark; of uncertain derivation); to indicate: - signify.

TO INDICATE - not "a sign".

The six instances of the Greek word rendered "signified" in Revelation 1:1

Joh 12:33
(33)  This he said, signifying what death he should die.
 

Joh 18:32
(32)  That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
 

Joh 21:19
(19)  This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
 

Act 11:28
(28)  And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
 

Act 25:27
(27)  For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to signify the crimes laid against him.
 

Rev 1:1
(1)  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
 

Now for an exercise, let's replace the word "signified" with "symbolised" and see if it makes sense.

Joh 12:33
(33)  This he said, symbolising (signifying) what death he should die. - Symbolising the manner of his death? makes no sense at all - the reality is that He was "Lifted up" - physically, and literally, in the way of a Roman crucifixion. "Indicating" is the correct understanding of the meaning of this phrase, whilst symbolising makes no sense at all. He was not symbolising the manner of His death, He was describing it literally.

 

Joh 18:32

(32)  That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, symbolising (signifying) what death he should die. - Symolising the manner of his death - makes no sense at all, but indicating the manner of his death - not a Jewish punishment, but in a fashion as He previously mentioned - makes perfect sense. Note also that this is referencing John 12:33 - what fits one must therefore fit the other.

Joh 21:19
(19)  This spake he, symbolising (signifying) by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. - What death should Peter glorify God through? There is no symbolising here - Peter will live to an old age. Nothing symbolic, but a clear statement. Jesus INDICATED, not symbolised what He meant.

Act 11:28
(28)  And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and symbolised (signified) by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. - Exactly how did Agabus "Symbolise" that there should be a great dearth? He didn't - He INDICATED. He DESCRIBED. He EXPLAINED. He Told them there would be a great dearth.

Act 25:27
(27)  For it seemeth to me unreasonable to send a prisoner, and not withal to symbolise (signify) the crimes laid against him. - So Festus couldn't Symbolise the crimes that Paul was accused of to King Agrippa? Of course not - Festus couldn't INDICATE, or Tell, or Explain even, but not "Symbolise" Paul's crimes to Agrippa.

Rev 1:1
(1)  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and symbolised (signified) it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

So then, what do we think "Signified" means in Revelation 1:1?

Of course it means "symbolised" doesn't it......

In no way CAN IT POSSIBLY mean symbolised. The Greek definition of the word does not mean Symbolised, and in no place in the New Testament is it used to mean "symbolised".

It means "to Indicate"", and by extension due to the way it is used it means "to explain" or "to tell", but it DOES NOT, and CAN NOT indicate (?) that the Book of Revelation is Symbolic.

Now then, find a way to support your made up definition, against the weight of Bible definition.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Which answer is of the following is correct? (Please signify* your answer by using the "underline" text option)

A. the book of Revelation is 100% literal

B. the book of Revelation is 100% symbolic

C. the book of Revelation is mostly literal, and where it is symbolic it is clearly indicated (not symbolised) by appropriate literary mechanisms.

 

*Please note: by "Signify" I mean "indicate clearly".

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Indeed, I also noticed how the word "signified" in Revelation 1:1 is being changed to mean "symbolized."  This change is being made according to the following pattern:

Revelation 1:1 uses the verb "SIGNIFIED," which is related to the noun "SIGN," which is equivalent in meaning to the noun "SYMBOL," which is related to the verb "SYMBOLIZED."

Now, while the verb "signified" is indeed somewhat related to the noun "sign," and while the noun "symbol" is indeed related to the verb "symbolized," it is simply false to claim that the noun "sign" and the noun "symbol" are equivalent to each other.  The noun "sign(s)" is found 65 times in the King James translation.  The great majority of those times the noun "sign(s)" refers to MIRACLES, while some of those times it refers to some form of signal concerning another event or truth.  Yet not even a single one of those times does the noun "sign(s)" mean "symbol or symbolism."  

In fact, if we remain strictly within the Book of the Revelation itself, we find that the verb "signified" is employed one time in Revelation 1:1 and that the noun "sign" is employed only one time in Revelation 15:1 -- "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."  Therein the noun "sign" does not mean "symbol," but means a signal with "great and marvelous" significance. 

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17 hours ago, Brother D said:

Your "different events" argument doesn't work for the three Gospel and Revelation cloud references, because these are all linked to judgement.  

Indeed, these passages are linked to judgment; yet they are also linked to deliverance and redemption.  And all of this is founded upon our Lord's "power and great glory."

Matthew 24:29-31 -- "[JUDGMENT] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  [DELIVERANCE] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13:24-27 -- "[JUDGMENT] But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.  And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.  [DELIVERANCE] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Luke 21:25-28 -- "[JUDGMENT] And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. [DELIVERANCE & REDEMPTION] And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."
 

18 hours ago, Brother D said:

But, I submit that the Acts 1 cloud reference refers to a different event.  As I've already pointed out, this Acts event is not linked to any form of judgment and only here does a cloud serve a function.

So then --

1.  Is Acts 1:11 a prophetic utterance by the angels concerning the event of our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming?  (Note: It should be obvious that I say - Yes.)
2.  If it is not, concerning what event is it a prophetic utterance?
3.  If it is, does not God's Word teach that our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming will involve judgment?
 

18 hours ago, Brother D said:

As I've already pointed out, this Acts event is not linked to any form of judgment and only here does a cloud serve a function.

Actually, in ALL of the passages under question the reference to cloud(s) serves a function.  By far, in the Old Testament the most common connection between clouds and the Lord (Jehovah) God are references unto the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory.  In like manner, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 all also reference a connection between "cloud(s)" and our Lord Jesus Christ's glory.  As such, these passages provide a connection between the glory of the Lord (Jehovah) God from the Old Testament, as noted through the cloud on Mount Sinai, through the cloud that abode with Israel in the wilderness, through the cloud that filled both the tabernacle and the temple, etc., with the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ in His Second Coming.  Indeed, the glory of the Lord (Jehovah) God in the Old Testament is the same glory as our Lord Jesus Christ in His Second Coming precisely because our Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord (Jehovah) God.  Yet while the cloud(s) of these Old Testament events represented the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory, they also were a literal, physical reality that could be literally seen.  Even so, in our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming, the cloud(s) will also be both representative of His "power and great glory" as well as a literal, physical reality that shall be literally seen.

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5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  Is Acts 1:11 a prophetic utterance by the angels concerning the event of our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming?  (Note: It should be obvious that I say - Yes.)
2.  If it is not, concerning what event is it a prophetic utterance?
3.  If it is, does not God's Word teach that our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming will involve judgment?

I believe the Second Coming is distinct from the cloud judgments.  Yes, Acts refers to the Second Coming.  The three Olivet Gospel verses do not.

By far, in the Old Testament the most common connection between clouds and the Lord (Jehovah) God are references unto the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory.  In like manner, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 all also reference a connection between "cloud(s)" and our Lord Jesus Christ's glory.

In like manner?

1) The glory cloud in the OT is a physical manifestation showing God's presence.  Jesus' presence himself does this, making the glory cloud purposeless.  

2) The glory cloud in the OT is not linked to judgment.

3) The glory cloud is at ground level, not linked to clouds in the sky.

4) In Acts 1, the cloud that received Jesus is not identified as a glory cloud, but is treated just as a regular cloud.

5) Glory cloud is always used in a singular sense, but judgment clouds are usually used in the plural. There are no "glory clouds".  

 

 

 

 

 

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On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 8:33 PM, Brother D said:

You give a false definition of stars by defining meteors and comets as stars . . .

Not so.  Actually, what I did was provide a Biblically contextual meaning for the word "stars" in accord with the very first usage of the word in Scripture within the creation account of the very first chapter of God's Word.  Let us consider again --

1.  Does the creation account of Genesis 1 encompass the creation of all the physical universe?  Yes, it does.
2.  Are the various planets, the various moons of the various planets, the asteroids, the comets, the meteors, etc. a part of all the physical universe?  Yes, they are.
3.  On what day were these various bodies in space created, and how is that creation reported in Genesis 1?  They were created on the fourth day of the creation week, and Genesis 1:16 simply reports this creation with the phrase, "And the stars also."

Even so, within the context of Genesis 1, the very first usage of the word "stars" in God's Word encompasses ALL of the bodies in space except the sun and the moon.  The greater light of the day is our sun.  The lesser light of the night is our moon.  And ALL of the other smaller light points are encompassed under the word "stars."

By the way, down through history there are various references to "falling stars."  Yet by our more advanced scientific knowledge, we recognize that these "falling stars" were not that which we now scientifically classify as "stars," but that they were moving lights in the sky produced most likely by the movement of comets or meteors.  

(Note: What I did NOT do in my posting above is to read back into Scripture our present day scientific definition for the word "star.")
 

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 8:33 PM, Brother D said:

You give a false definition of stars by defining meteors and comets as stars so as to reduce "stars of heaven shall fall" to a mere meteor shower, in spite of the context implying something much grander.  

Actually, I said NOTHING about how I might specifically define the phrase "stars of heaven shall fall."  I simply demonstrated that it is NOT "impossible" or "purely absurd" to take this phrase literally within the context of a Scriptural usage for the word "stars."  Since the Scriptural usage of the word "stars" encompasses ALL of the bodies in space except the sun and the moon, the phrase, "stars of heaven shall fall," can encompass any variety of possibilities more than "a mere meteor shower."  Furthermore, a great number of those possibilities would indeed be "something much grander" than "a mere meteor shower."  
 

On ‎7‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 8:33 PM, Brother D said:

Meteors and comets are, in fact, not stars.  Nothing in the Bible even remotely suggests that the authors of the Bible considered meteors and comets to be stars. 

Let us consider yet another passage.

Deuteronomy 4:19 -- "And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven."

Herein the word "even" grammatically communicates an equivalency.  As such, the passage indicates "the sun, and the moon, and the stars" are equal in content to "all the host of heaven."  Now, ALL the host of heaven would certainly encompass ALL the stars, planets, moons, asteroids, comets, meteors, etc.  So then, in the equivalent phrase, "the sun, and the moon, and the stars," which word encompasses ALL of these bodies in space?  It is not the word "sun," for that refers only unto a singular body in space.  It is not the word "moon," for that also refers only unto a singular body in space.  Thus we understand that it is the word "stars," for that refers unto a plural multitude of bodies in space.  

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Not so.  Actually, what I did was provide a Biblically contextual meaning for the word "stars" in accord with the very first usage of the word in Scripture within the creation account of the very first chapter of God's Word.  Let us consider again --

1.  Does the creation account of Genesis 1 encompass the creation of all the physical universe?  Yes, it does.
2.  Are the various planets, the various moons of the various planets, the asteroids, the comets, the meteors, etc. a part of all the physical universe?  Yes, they are.
3.  On what day were these various bodies in space created, and how is that creation reported in Genesis 1?  They were created on the fourth day of the creation week, and Genesis 1:16 simply reports this creation with the phrase, "And the stars also." multitude of bodies in space.  

There are many reasons why you have no case. I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make it drink.

1) Meteors are in fact not stars.

2) The Bible never confuses meteors with stars.

3) The Bible treats stars as those points of light in the sky that stay fixed.

4) Meteors give no light until they are falling, so logically they can't be a stars, stars waiting to fall at the appointed time.

5) The Bible frequently and undeniably uses "stars" as symbols of things that are not stars.

6) If the Jesus meant there would be a meteor shower, it would be an embarrasingly pointless and random thing to mention.

7) Genesis saying God created the stars in no way makes meteors stars.  No, "stars" doesn't encompass everything in the universe that isn't our son an moon.

😎 I'll spare you the next 24 reasons, because this forum software has started turning my enumerations into emojis.  8 )

 

Actually, I said NOTHING about how I might specifically define the phrase "stars of heaven shall fall."  I simply demonstrated that it is NOT "impossible" or "purely absurd" to take this phrase literally within the context of a Scriptural usage for the word "stars." 

You're making an absurd appeal to avoid an absurdity of taking "stars of heaven shall fall" literally.  A handful of dark meteors are not the "stars of heaven". 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Brother D said:

There are many reasons why you have no case. I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make it drink.

1) Meteors are in fact not stars.

2) The Bible never confuses meteors with stars.

3) The Bible treats stars as those points of light in the sky that stay fixed.

4) Meteors give no light until they are falling, so logically they can't be a stars, stars waiting to fall at the appointed time.

5) The Bible frequently and undeniably uses "stars" as symbols of things that are not stars.

6) If the Jesus meant there would be a meteor shower, it would be an embarrasingly pointless and random thing to mention.

7) Genesis saying God created the stars in no way makes meteors stars.  No, "stars" doesn't encompass everything in the universe that isn't our son an moon.

1)  In our modern scientific definition, meteors are not stars.  However, we are NOT talking about our modern scientific definition; and reading back such a definition upon Scripture is simply false.

2)  Actually, Scripture does not distinguish the planets from the moons from the asteroids from the comets from the meteors, because Scripture does not speak of these things as separately defined bodies in space.  Indeed, I would ask you to provide actual Biblical evidence wherein Scripture DOES distinguish these things as separately defined bodies in space.  If you cannot, then this argument simply stands upon the authority of your personal declaration, and upon nothing more.

3)  Really.  Could you provide me with a Biblical passage wherein Scripture provides this definition for stars.

4)  Actually, any body in space that either generates light or reflects light thereby gives off light as long as you have the apparatus by which to see that light.

5) Correct.

6)  Yet I made no claim that what Jesus was talking about was a meteor shower.  Rather, I made the claim that Jesus could have been talking about any number of different bodies in space other than that which we now scientifically defines as "stars."

7)  Actually, it contextually does mean that.  Furthermore, the equivalency statement in Deuteronomy 4:19 supports that meaning.

By the way --

1.  I notice that you like to make many emphatic and absolute statements, but that you do not provide Biblical support for those statements.  When you do so, you require me to accept your declaration simply on the authority of your word.  However, I do not take my doctrinal position from the authority of a man's word, but only from the authority of God's word, as "rightly divided" through grammatical, contextual understanding.

2.  What is the physical "morning star"?

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6 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

What is the physical "morning star"?

Jesus would be the star Sirius, if you want to be literal.

 

 

 

Edited by Brother D

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On 7/5/2018 at 8:33 PM, Brother D said:

You know that stars are used in the OT and Revelation in a symbolic fashion.  Is there any place where you think the word star is used symbolically, even when not explicitly identified as something else?  Indeed, where in Revelation is any star ever treated literally?   

The word "star(s)," in either the singular or plural form, is found 14 times in the Book of the Revelation, and is used as follows:

1.  Revelation 1:16, 1:20 (twice), 2:1, 3:1 use the word "stars" symbolically to represent the seven angels (probably human messengers) of the seven churches.
2.  Revelation 2:28 uses the phrase "morning star" symbolically apparently to represent some reward that will be given unto the one who overcomes.
3.  Revelation 6:13, 8:10, 11, 12 uses the word "star(s)" literally (as per the Biblical meaning for the word "stars" that I have presented in previous postings).
4.  Revelation 9:1 uses the word "star" symbolically to represent the unrighteous angel over the demons of the bottomless pit.
5.  Revelation 12:1 uses the word "stars" symbolically to represent the twelve tribes of Israel.
6.  Revelation 12:4 uses the word "stars" symbolically to represent the angelic beings of heaven.
7.  Revelations 22:16 uses the phrase "bright and morning star" symbolically to represent the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
 

On 7/5/2018 at 8:33 PM, Brother D said:

Revelation is a vision, identified as signs (Rev 1:1). Everything in the vision, start to finish, is symbols.   

As I have already indicated in a previous posting:

On 7/6/2018 at 10:50 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, I also noticed how the word "signified" in Revelation 1:1 is being changed to mean "symbolized."  This change is being made according to the following pattern:

Revelation 1:1 uses the verb "SIGNIFIED," which is related to the noun "SIGN," which is equivalent in meaning to the noun "SYMBOL," which is related to the verb "SYMBOLIZED."

Now, while the verb "signified" is indeed somewhat related to the noun "sign," and while the noun "symbol" is indeed related to the verb "symbolized," it is simply false to claim that the noun "sign" and the noun "symbol" are equivalent to each other.  The noun "sign(s)" is found 65 times in the King James translation.  The great majority of those times the noun "sign(s)" refers to MIRACLES, while some of those times it refers to some form of signal concerning another event or truth.  Yet not even a single one of those times does the noun "sign(s)" mean "symbol or symbolism."  

In fact, if we remain strictly within the Book of the Revelation itself, we find that the verb "signified" is employed one time in Revelation 1:1 and that the noun "sign" is employed only one time in Revelation 15:1 -- "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."  Therein the noun "sign" does not mean "symbol," but means a signal with "great and marvelous" significance. 


 

On 7/5/2018 at 8:33 PM, Brother D said:

Revelation is a vision, identified as signs (Rev 1:1). Everything in the vision, start to finish, is symbols.   

So then --

1.  Do you believe that the seven churches in Asia were not real church bodies, but are just symbols of something else?
2.  Do you believe that the various commendations and/or condemnations of those seven churches were not about real matters in those churches, but are just symbolic?
3.  Do you believe that the devil will not really be chained in the bottomless pit for a thousand years, but that such is just symbolic?
4.  Do you believe that our Lord Jesus Christ will not really reign upon the earth for a thousand years, but that such is just symbolic?
5.  Do you believe that there will not really be a new heaven and new earth for the eternal future, but that such is just symbolic?
 

On 7/5/2018 at 8:33 PM, Brother D said:

You might be holding out for locusts with human faces, but I'm not.  And, while you're holding out, you're redefining words (while denying this blatant act) like "soon", "this generation"  and "star", for no reason other than their real meaning contradicts your doctrine.  

While I certainly expect that the prophecy concerning the demons from the bottomless pit will be fulfilled just as is prophesied in the Book of the Revelation, I am not "holding out" for that event.  Rather, I am holding out and hoping forward for the event of our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming and thousand year reign upon the earth, as recorded in Revelation 19-20.  Furthermore, I am holding out and hoping forward for the new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem, as recorded in Revelation 21-22.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

I believe the Second Coming is distinct from the cloud judgments.  Yes, Acts refers to the Second Coming.  The three Olivet Gospel verses do not.

Since you believe that Acts 1:11 provides a prophetic utterance concerning our Lord Jesus Christ’s Second Coming, and since you believe that Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 present a different prophetic event than Acts 1:11, I would ask --

1.  Do you believe that Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 are all referencing the same prophetic event as each other?

2.  If so, what prophetic event of our Lord Jesus Christ’s coming do you believe is presented through Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7?

Furthermore, since you believe that the reference unto “cloud(s)” is symbolic in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7, I would ask –

1.  Do you believe that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as presented in these verses is literal or symbolic?

2.  Do you believe that all of the tribes of the earth will literally see the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as presented in these verses, or that this also is symbolic?

3.  Do you believe all of the tribes of the earth will literally mourn and wail at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as presented in these verses, or that this also is symbolic?

4.  Do you believe that our Lord Jesus Christ will literally come “in power and great glory” as presented in these verses, or that this also is symbolic?

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