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How to Understand Revelation and Daniel


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7 hours ago, Brother D said:

As for "seeing", that is a difference in detail between NT and OT cloud references, but I think a difference of style, not nature. 

Well, certainly you are entitled to hold your own opinion on the matter.  However, I am compelled to hold that the "seeing" aspect of these prophetic utterances is BIBLICALLY SIGNIFICANT to communicate the LITERAL, PHYSICAL nature of that which is being prophesied.
 

7 hours ago, Brother D said:

I have discussed the nature of idioms, such as an idiom has no obvious connection to the context, if taken literally.  But, if taken non-literally, it explains the context.  By this criteria, Jesus coming in the clouds appears to be an idiom.  Seeing Jesus coming on the clouds doesn't change that.  

Indeed, I understand your description concerning "the nature of idioms."  I just simply do NOT agree that it applies to the "cloud(s)" references in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7; for I hold that the "cloud(s)" references of these passages DO have a "connection to the context if taken literally," (1) as the return of our Lord Jesus Christ by the same manner in which He ascended (from the earth unto the heavens), (2) as a literal representation of His sovereign power and divine glory when He returns in His Second Coming to establish His thousand year reign upon the earth, (3) as an observable connection between the sovereign power and divine glory of the Lord Jesus Christ with the Lord (Jehovah) God of the Old Testament (because He actually and bodily IS the Lord God of the Old Testament), (4) as an observable connection with the prophetic utterance of Daniel 7:13-14, and (5) as an observable indication that the Lord Jesus Christ's kingdom rule is not of this earth, but is come down out of heaven.  As such, your continuing claim for the "idiom" nature of the prophetic utterance in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7, based upon the definitional nature of idioms, does not follow from my perspective. 

Your argument is as follows: The "cloud(s)" reference does not have an obvious connection to the context if taken literally; therefore, it must be an idiom.  My response is as follows: The "cloud(s)" reference does INDEED have an connection to the context if taken literally; therefore, there is no need to view it as an idiom.  Your reason for your argument (at least somewhat): Because you do not view the prophetic utterances of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 as references unto our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming, but unto some other "coming."  My reason for my response (at least somewhat): Because I DO view these prophetic utterances as references unto our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming.

By the way, I did ask you in an earlier posting -- If you do not believe that Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 are prophetic utterances concerning our Lord Jesus Christ's (literal, bodily) Second Coming, what event do you believe that they reference?  I do not recall that you ever answered my question.  (If you did, and I missed it, I do apologize.)
 

7 hours ago, Brother D said:

The use of the word "see" could mean people will literally see Jesus.  But, it could also mean people will see what the idiom respresents. 

Except that Revelation 1:7 states, "And every eye shall see HIM." (not some idiom, but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself)
 

7 hours ago, Brother D said:

I believe in a physical return of Christ, but that doesn't mean any "coming" is that physical return of Christ.  I don't believe clouds have anything to do with the physical return of Christ (beyond, maybe, Jesus appearing from a cloud).   

Earlier in this discussion you acknowledged that Acts 1:9-11 does speak about our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming (although you have contended that Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 do not).  In Acts 1:9-11 we read, "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven?  This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."  It appears to me that the matter of "cloud(s)" was significant enough for the angels to make reference unto it and for God the Holy Spirit to record it in the inspired Scriptures.  In fact, this passage reveals the the matter of literal, observable "cloud(s)" will be the very signal of our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming OUT FROM heaven.
 

7 hours ago, Brother D said:

I believe in a physical return of Christ, but that doesn't mean any "coming" is that physical return of Christ.  I don't believe clouds have anything to do with the physical return of Christ (beyond, maybe, Jesus appearing from a cloud).   It's Jesus' nature to come in power and great glory, even if just in judgement.  

First, in our Lord Jesus Christ's first coming He did not come with His sovereign power and divine glory on full display, because He had come primarily as the Father's servant and sacrifice.  However, in our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming He most certainly will come with His sovereign power and divine glory on full display, because He will come as King of kings and Lord of lords to establish His thousand year reign over all the earth.

Second, as I have indicated more than once in this discussion, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as prophesied in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 is contextually NOT "just in judgment," but is in BOTH judgment AND deliverance (redemption).
 

7 hours ago, Brother D said:

The judgement isn't the violence of the tribulation itself, but the result of the tribulation and what is symbolized by the sun, moon, and stars being darkened, the removal of the powers represented by those lights.  The Greek word translated "after" (after the tribulation) is usually translated "with".  This is not one event (tribulation) followed by a distinctly different event (coming in the clouds).

First, the matter of the sun, moon, and stars is NOT symbolic, but LITERAL, and is  thereby in itself a judgment upon the people of the earth.

Second, you are correct that the Greek word which is translated as "after" in Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 is most commonly translated by the English preposition "with."  However, this fact in itself is somewhat misleading because it does not reveal the whole truth about the case.  The Greek word in this case is the Greek preposition "μετά" ("meta," Strong's #3326).  When this Greek preposition is joined with an object of the preposition in the Greek genitive case, this Greek preposition means "with."  However, when this Greek preposition is joined with an object of the preposition in the Greek accusative case, this Greek preposition means 'after."  So then, with what Greek case is this Greek preposition joined in Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24?  In both verses this Greek preposition is joined with an object of the preposition in the Greek accusative case, thus meaning "AFTER" (just as the King James translation translates it).  Even so, your attempt to use the Greek as support for your position on this matter is simply false.

Third, the grammatical and contextual flow of thought concerning the sequence of events proceeds as follows:  (1) After that tribulation . . ., (2) And then Christ's coming . . ., (3) And then the gathering . . .  As such, the great tribulation of those days and the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ most certainly ARE two distinctly different events, with one FOLLOWING the other.
 

7 hours ago, Brother D said:

I don't think your analysis is bad, as far as it goes.  But, the issue is making the whole chapter of Mark 13 (and related verses) work.  Jesus says that Temple then standing will be destroyed.  When asked when, he tells his followers that they will first be persecuted.  He tells them when they see a certain something, to run for the mountains. And, he says happen before his generation passes. Those things did happen how and when Jesus said, but if you take literally "coming in the clouds" than you have to pervert the meaning of the rest of what Jesus said.  E.g., "This generation" means his generation.  The grammar and context does not support the claim Jesus meant a future generation.

Actually, I have no problem with taking and unifying the prophesies of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 literally, and with seeing some (large) portions of them as still being future.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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9 hours ago, Brother D said:

Let's, apply this rule to Jesus coming in the clouds.  What does the context say Jesus will do when he arrives. What function to the clouds serve?  How does the context discuss the travel-by-clouds statement?    See, no obvious relationship to the context.

1.  What does the context say our Lord Jesus Christ will do when He arrives?

Matthew 24:31 -- "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Mark 13:27 -- "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Luke 21:28 -- "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Luke 21:31 -- "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."

Matthew 24:37-41 -- "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Matthew 25:31-46 -- "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:  and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.  Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

So then, when He arrives, our Lord Jesus Christ will (1) deliver and gather His elect from across the whole world, (2) establish His kingdom reign on the earth, (3) judge all the nations for how they treated His brethren.


2.  What function do the clouds serve?

(1) To fulfill the return of our Lord Jesus Christ by the same manner in which He ascended (from the earth unto the heavens)
(2) To be a literal representation of His sovereign power and divine glory when He returns in His Second Coming to establish His thousand year reign upon the earth
(3) To be an observable connection between the sovereign power and divine glory of the Lord Jesus Christ with the Lord (Jehovah) God of the Old Testament (because He actually and bodily IS the Lord God of the Old Testament)
(4) To be an observable connection with the prophetic utterance of Daniel 7:13-14
(5) To be an observable indication that the Lord Jesus Christ's kingdom rule is not of this earth, but is come down out of heaven. 
(6) To distinguish Him from the false Christs of Matthew 24:23-26 and Mark 13:21-22.


3.  How does the context discuss the travel-by-clouds statement?

As a literal event that all the tribes of the earth shall literally SEE.


So then, a definite relationship to the context. No idiom needed.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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10 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  What does the context say our Lord Jesus Christ will do when He arrives?

Matthew 24:31 -- "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

If Acts 1 were reversed, it would be something like this:  "Men of Galilee were looking up and they saw Jesus come into sight from out of a cloud.   When Jesus had come down, the men asked Jesus if he were going to now restore the kingdom to Israel.  Jesus stayed in Jerusalem and presented himself alive and spent 40 days speaking about the kingdom of God."

Jesus sending his angels, nor the other verses you posted, have nothing to do with a physical presence or an appearance  in clouds.   If "coming in the clouds" isn't an idiom, then there are no idioms in the Bible.

Quote

2.  What function do the clouds serve?

(1) To fulfill the return of our Lord Jesus Christ by the same manner in which He ascended (from the earth unto the heavens)
(2) To be a literal representation of His sovereign power and divine glory when He returns in His Second Coming to establish His thousand year reign upon the earth
(3) To be an observable connection between the sovereign power and divine glory of the Lord Jesus Christ with the Lord (Jehovah) God of the Old Testament (because He actually and bodily IS the Lord God of the Old Testament)
(4) To be an observable connection with the prophetic utterance of Daniel 7:13-14
(5) To be an observable indication that the Lord Jesus Christ's kingdom rule is not of this earth, but is come down out of heaven. 
(6) To distinguish Him from the false Christs of Matthew 24:23-26 and Mark 13:21-22.[/quote]

 

Quote

All six of those points seem really reaching.  1) "Coming in the clouds" is not same manner as Acts 1. 2) The passages about "coming in the clouds" contain no references to a 1000-year reign.  3) Do really you think "clouds" provides a needed connection with the OT?  4) Daniel 7 speaks of an eternal reign, not a 1000-year rain, besides Daniel uses "clouds" non-literally, in a vision.  5) You haven't shown "coming in the clouds" to be anything about a kingdom (vs. judgment).  But, if it were, do clouds really send a message that Christ's kingdom rule is not of this earth? 6) There is a small problem of people claiming to be Christ who are not, but there will be no problem for anyone to recognize Christ when he makes a literal return.  Besides, in our age, "coming with the clouds" can be faked by fake Christ.  TV makes it trivial. 

Quote

3.  How does the context discuss the travel-by-clouds statement?

As a literal event that all the tribes of the earth shall literally SEE.

You are referring to: Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1) The context doesn't show it to be literal. All you have is "see" which can refer to seeing the judgment.  Compare to my illustration at the top of this post regarding Acts 1, what the context  might look like if it were literal.

2) The context shows this to mean judgement. Aside from the verse itself speaking of wailing, this verse is part of the introduction to Revelation which is a book about judgment. Likewise, Jesus' use of "coming in the clouds" is in the context of judgment of Jerusalem.  Taken literally, it doesn't fit, at all, the context.  It's a completely random statement, if taken literally.

3) It says those who pierced Jesus would see him.  If you take that literally, it has to be the first century, because those people aren't around now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Brother D
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But Acts 1 isn't reversed is it?

In fact it says:

Act 1:1-11
(1)  The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
(2)  Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
(3)  To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
(4)  And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
(5)  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
(6)  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
(7)  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
(8)  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
(9)  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
(10)  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
(11)  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
 

(Sorry for Posting Bible verses - I know how much you hate it.....)

Funny that someone here wants to rewrite the Bible and (Mis)represent it in a certain way, but others want to just read what it says...….

I might just point out that there is no reason for anyone to assume that any of this is figurative.

(2)  Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Did Jesus literally do and teach things to the Apostles until He literally gave them the Great Commission, and was thereafter taken up? Was this taking up literal or figurative?

Let's look at the description of it from later in this passage:

(8)  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
(9)  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Now, referencing vs 2 above which gives us a rough order of events: Jesus was taken up after Jesus had given commandments to the apostles, on that same day.

In vs 8 we see … Oh look at that: commandments are given to the Apostles. 

And vs 9 tells us - oh look at that: WHEN HE HAD SPOKEN THESE THINGS, WHILE THEY WATCHED, he was taken up - and then the Bible describes the manner in which He was taken up - specifically that WHILE THEY WATCHED a cloud received Him OUT OF THIER SIGHT.

Where is there any indication that any of this was other than literal. It talks of Jesus speaking with them and teaching them, and then of them watching Him as he is received up into a cloud, and it even states that as HE went into the cloud He went out of their sight.

So Jesus lifts up into the air and is received into a cloud - and I don't think there is any mention of judgement in this instance?

Now, none of this really makes any difference to the main part of this discussion, because at this point of the passage we are not talking about Jesus coming back at all, but simply about Him being received up into the sky and into a cloud.

But unfortunately for "Brother D" the passage doesn't finish there - 

(10)  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
(11)  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Notice that it says they were stedfastly looking toward heaven "AS HE WENT UP" - I am going to take a guess here and suggest that the "Heaven" spoken of is not the spiritual place, but rather the sky - because that is where Jesus had just gone up into a cloud and these guys were stills taring upwards to see where He went I guess. I know if I saw that I would be astounded at such an unlikely thing happening. Some might even think it absurd to suggest that such a thing could even happen..... But nonetheless, the Bible records them looking "...toward heaven as He(Jesus) went up...."

Then two men stood by in white apparel - they are not named nor identified in any way, apart from the fact that they have a certain knowledge.

They asked the apostles "why stand ye gazing up into heaven?" I wonder why they asked such a thing - maybe these guys were standing up and looking up into the sky with their mouths wide open as though something amazing had just happened?

Then these guys said something interesting: "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

They said that Jesus - this same Jesus by the way, not some other Jesus - shall come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven.

Now we have already established which heaven we are talking about - not the spiritual place, but the sky.

We have already established the MANNER in which He went up into heaven - sort of - He rose up into the air somehow. AND he rose up into a cloud until they couldn't see Him anymore.

Now these two guys dressed in white tell the apostles that Jesus will come back in the same manner in which He went.

That means He will come back physically - this same Jesus, not some spiritual Jesus.

That means that He will come back by the reverse of rising up into the air - He will drop down out of the air.

That means that He will become visible to those watching as He appears from a cloud.

All of this happened literally - the description is so clear and vivid that it has to be a literal event.

That means that at some time Jesus will appear out of a cloud and drop down out of that could in a controlled way.

THIS PASSAGE does not designate when that event will happen - just that IT WILL HAPPEN IN THE SAME MANNER as when He was received up into a cloud.

In this post I am not even suggesting that this is the same "Coming in the clouds" event that has been spoken of by others in this thread - I am just showing what the Bible actually says, rather than rewriting it. One would need to reference other passages that DO talk about Jesus coming in clouds to figure out which event is the one being spoken of here so literally.

 

Oh and although it has nothing to do with the whole cloud issue, Jesus answers them about their question by saying that they will not know the timing. Note however that it was a discussion that was had, but it is not relating to the cloud issue at all - in fact after the question about timing which Jesus answered by saying that only the Father knows, Jesus then has a whole section about the Great Commission BEFORE he is taken up.

(6)  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
(7)  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

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Just now, DaveW said:

But Acts 1 isn't reversed is it?

"Shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go" doesn't mean reversed?  Isn't "come" the reverse of "go"?  Besides, that's not the point.  I was illustrating what it might look like if "coming in the clouds" were literal.  As I have repeatedly pointed out, if taken literally "coming with the clouds" has no connection to the context, compared to Acts 1 were leaving to the cloud is flows with the context.   The nature of an idiom is that it doesn't connect, or flow, with the context, if taken literally.   

And vs 9 tells us - oh look at that: WHEN HE HAD SPOKEN THESE THINGS, WHILE THEY WATCHED, he was taken up - and then the Bible describes the manner in which He was taken up - specifically that WHILE THEY WATCHED a cloud received Him OUT OF THIER SIGHT.

Where is there any indication that any of this was other than literal.

What's sad about this is if you haven't understood that I take Acts 1 literally, then you haven't been following my reasoning.

THIS PASSAGE does not designate when that event will happen - just that IT WILL HAPPEN IN THE SAME MANNER as when He was received up into a cloud.

Acts 1 also doesn't designate that Christ coming as he left, "he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight", is the "coming in the clouds" at Jerusalem's judgement.  The context and language is very different.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Brother D said:

"Shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go" doesn't mean reversed?  Isn't "come" the reverse of "go"?  Besides, that's not the point.  I was illustrating what it might look like if "coming in the clouds" were literal.  As I have repeatedly pointed out, if taken literally "coming with the clouds" has no connection to the context, compared to Acts 1 were leaving to the cloud is flows with the context.   The nature of an idiom is that it doesn't connect, or flow, with the context, if taken literally.   

 

 

And here was me hoping that for once you would keep your word - but no, you answered me anyway, even though you said you would ignore me...….. ?

There is no need to reverse the passage of the Bible, except to misrepresent what it is saying - which is what you did. How about you just use the Bible itself. It says what it says, no need to rewrite it.

 

15 minutes ago, Brother D said:

Acts 1 also doesn't designate that Christ coming as he left, "he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight", is the "coming in the clouds" at Jerusalem's judgement.  The context and language is very different. 

Another misrepresentation:

I said:

41 minutes ago, DaveW said:

In this post I am not even suggesting that this is the same "Coming in the clouds" event that has been spoken of by others in this thread - I am just showing what the Bible actually says, rather than rewriting it. One would need to reference other passages that DO talk about Jesus coming in clouds to figure out which event is the one being spoken of here so literally.

You simply cannot help but misrepresent other here for the purposes of misleading readers.

I was VERY VERY VERY clear about what I was posting - you chose to ignore what I wrote so that you could try to make it look like I was wrong.

You just can't help yourself can you? 

 

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Bro. D

I find it quite ironic that your profile indicates that you are an Independent Fundamental Baptist and you have stated that you are a "traditional Baptist", and yet in all of your posts there is not one real Baptist that agrees with your beliefs.

It makes me wonder if you can provide even one credible Baptist writer or expositor that agrees with your "opinions".

You have stated that you were "always a Baptist" and yet when pointedly asked to provide your salvation experience and what church you attend you totally ignored the request.

You don't seem to like references to Scripture and prefer to replace Scripture with your personal opinions, expecting others to take your word over what the Bible plainly says.

You call the plain inspired Word of God, "absurd" simply because you can't understand how certain things can be possible, such as Jesus riding on a cloud.

These are not the actions or beliefs that traditional Baptists hold dear as traditional Baptist doctrine.

I, for one, would welcome you being completely honest and stating clearly your salvation experience as well as what Baptist churches you have attended or now attend.

I write none of this in a spirit of sarcasm or contention, but instead as a simple request for clarification. After all, we are commanded to:  
1Jo 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Please note that I am quoting Scripture here, not accusing you of being a false prophet. If you come among God's people attempting to teach things contrary to traditional Baptist doctrine, we are commanded to critically examine both your doctrine and person.

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On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 6:02 AM, Brother D said:
On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:57 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  What does the context say our Lord Jesus Christ will do when He arrives?

Matthew 24:31 -- "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

If Acts 1 were reversed, it would be something like this:  "Men of Galilee were looking up and they saw Jesus come into sight from out of a cloud.   When Jesus had come down, the men asked Jesus if he were going to now restore the kingdom to Israel.  Jesus stayed in Jerusalem and presented himself alive and spent 40 days speaking about the kingdom of God."

Jesus sending his angels, nor the other verses you posted, have nothing to do with a physical presence or an appearance  in clouds.   If "coming in the clouds" isn't an idiom, then there are no idioms in the Bible.

I am not exactly sure why you presented your comments about Acts 1 in relation to that portion of my posting, since I did not reference Acts 1 at all in that portion of my posting.

You had asked the question, as follows:

Quote

Let's, apply this rule to Jesus coming in the clouds.  What does the context say Jesus will do when he arrives. (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

I gave answer by quoting a series of passages that were specifically from the contexts of Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21, as follows:

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:57 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Matthew 24:31 -- "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Mark 13:27 -- "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Luke 21:28 -- "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

Luke 21:31 -- "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."

Matthew 24:37-41 -- "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Matthew 25:31-46 -- "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:  and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.  Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Then I summarized what we learn from these passages, as follows:

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:57 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So then, when He arrives, our Lord Jesus Christ will (1) deliver and gather His elect from across the whole world, (2) establish His kingdom reign on the earth, (3) judge all the nations for how they treated His brethren.

Throughout this entire answer unto your question, I did NOT make even a single reference unto Acts 1 AT ALL - Because your question asked about the contexts of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27; and Acts 1 is NOT within those contexts.  On the other hand, Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21 ARE the contexts for those verses.

However, the fact that you chose to quote only the first verse of the series that I quoted in my posting, and chose not to make any reference unto my summary statement, causes me to wonder if you even noted and considered the Biblical information of my entire posting.  If you did not, then such would reveal that you are not much of real BIBLE student - since a real BIBLE STUDENT would take whatever time necessary to read, study, and understand any portion of Scripture that is relevant to the discussion.
 

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:57 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

2.  What function do the clouds serve?

(1) To fulfill the return of our Lord Jesus Christ by the same manner in which He ascended (from the earth unto the heavens)
(2) To be a literal representation of His sovereign power and divine glory when He returns in His Second Coming to establish His thousand year reign upon the earth
(3) To be an observable connection between the sovereign power and divine glory of the Lord Jesus Christ with the Lord (Jehovah) God of the Old Testament (because He actually and bodily IS the Lord God of the Old Testament)
(4) To be an observable connection with the prophetic utterance of Daniel 7:13-14
(5) To be an observable indication that the Lord Jesus Christ's kingdom rule is not of this earth, but is come down out of heaven. 
(6) To distinguish Him from the false Christs of Matthew 24:23-26 and Mark 13:21-22.

On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 6:02 AM, Brother D said:

All six of those points seem really reaching.  1) "Coming in the clouds" is not same manner as Acts 1. 2) The passages about "coming in the clouds" contain no references to a 1000-year reign.  3) Do really you think "clouds" provides a needed connection with the OT?  4) Daniel 7 speaks of an eternal reign, not a 1000-year rain, besides Daniel uses "clouds" non-literally, in a vision.  5) You haven't shown "coming in the clouds" to be anything about a kingdom (vs. judgment).  But, if it were, do clouds really send a message that Christ's kingdom rule is not of this earth? 6) There is a small problem of people claiming to be Christ who are not, but there will be no problem for anyone to recognize Christ when he makes a literal return.  Besides, in our age, "coming with the clouds" can be faked by fake Christ.  TV makes it trivial. 

Well, I certainly do NOT agree that these points are "reaching."  Rather, I believe that they are all BIBLICALLY SIGNIFICANT.  Thus I reject your attempt to trivialize them.  Even so, I find your argument (that the reference unto cloud(s) is idiomatic because it lacks literal value) to be empty, which is the very reason that you have been completely unable to sway me toward your position on this matter.  You have one foundational argument -- It is an idiom because it (supposedly) lack literal value.  I strongly disagree with that foundational argument, as per the extensive BIBLE study of my postings.  Therefore, as your foundational argument falls, so your position falls with it.

1)  Acts 1:9 indicates that in His ascension our Lord Jesus Christ was received (carried) by a cloud (singular) out of the disciples' SIGHT (the reference unto physical sight is worthy of notice).  Acts 1:11 indicates that our Lord Jesus Christ will come back "in like manner" as the disciples had "SEEN him go into heaven" (again, the reference unto physical sight is worthy of notice).  That observable MANNER was by a CLOUD (singular).  Considering the specific Greek prepositions in each passage, we learn the following: Matthew 24:30 indicates a coming of our Lord Jesus Christ UPON (Greek preposition "epi") the clouds (plural) of heaven; Mark 13:26 indicates a coming of our Lord Jesus Christ IN (Greek preposition "en") clouds (plural); and Luke indicates a coming of our Lord Jesus Christ IN (Greek preposition "en") a cloud (singular).  Now, either each of these three passages is talking about a different coming, because one speaks about coming upon plural clouds, whereas another speaks about coming in plural clouds, whereas another speaks about coming in a singular cloud.  Or, all three passages are a legitimate BIBLICAL way for describing the SAME event, whether upon or in plural or singular cloud(s).  If all three of these passages are indeed a BIBLICALLY legitimate way to describe the same event, then the reference unto a singular cloud in Acts 1:9-11 cannot simply be ruled out simply because it only reference a cloud in the singular, since Luke 21:27 also only references a cloud in the singular.  (It is also worthy of notice that both the Gospel of Luke and the Book of the Acts were written by the same inspired penman.)  Furthermore, it is worthy of notice that EVERY SINGLE ONE of these passages specifies that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ WILL BE SEEN.  (Yes, I know that you believe these references unto seeing simply to be stylistic and thus trivial; however, I consider them to be a significant signal for the literal nature of these prophetic utterances in literal fulfillment of the promise that was made in Acts 1:11.)

2)  Luke 21:31 (which is a part of the context for Luke 21:27) speaks about the establishing of the KINGDOM upon the earth, and Matthew 25:31 (which is a part of the context for Matthew 24:30) speaks about our Lord Jesus Christ sitting "upon the throne of his glory" in order to judge the nations of the world.  Indeed, the kingdom reign of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the earth most certainly is reference within these contexts.

3)  Yes, I really DO think that. 

4)  Indeed, Daniel 7 does speak about an eternal kingdom because the kingdom reign of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the earth, that will begin with the thousand year reign (as per Revelation 19-20), will not be broken, but will continue into the eternal reality of the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem.

5)  Note my comment for #2) above.

6)  False Christs are NOT a "small problem."  The spirit of antichrist is NOT a "small problem."  The antichrist himself, who will himself be a false christ, will NOT be a "small problem, but will move the majority population of the whole earth to worship him, and thereby damn themselves unto the eternal torment of hell.  NOT a "small problem" AT ALL.    Even so , I am compelled to say that your trivialization of Biblical matters is somewhat offensive to this Bible student.
 

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:57 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

3.  How does the context discuss the travel-by-clouds statement?

As a literal event that all the tribes of the earth shall literally SEE.

So then, a definite relationship to the context. No idiom needed.

On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 6:02 AM, Brother D said:

You are referring to: Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1) The context doesn't show it to be literal. All you have is "see" which can refer to seeing the judgment.  Compare to my illustration at the top of this post regarding Acts 1, what the context  might look like if it were literal.

2) The context shows this to mean judgement. Aside from the verse itself speaking of wailing, this verse is part of the introduction to Revelation which is a book about judgment. Likewise, Jesus' use of "coming in the clouds" is in the context of judgment of Jerusalem.  Taken literally, it doesn't fit, at all, the context.  It's a completely random statement, if taken literally.

3) It says those who pierced Jesus would see him.  If you take that literally, it has to be the first century, because those people aren't around now.

No sir. I was referring to Matthew 24:30 -- "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."  Therefore, your comments about the context of Revelation 1:7 are not really relevant.

________________________________________________________

Now then, it has not really been my expectation throughout this discussion that I would convince you to change your position.  Rather, it has been my primary intention to demonstrate unto the audience that there are definite BIBLICAL answer for your doubtful disputations.  Thus at this time I now speak to the audience of this discussion -- Throughout this thread discussion between Brother D and myself (Pastor Scott Markle), one of us has engaged the discussion primarily through actual, extensive Bible study, whereas the other has engaged the discussion primarily through personal declarations.  As members of the audience, it is your responsibility to discern which is which, and to recognize that one method stands upon the authority of God's own Word, whereas the other method stands upon the authority of a man's personal word.  

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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To those who may be interested:

1.  It is worthy to notice the reference unto SEEING throughout the following prophecies concerning our Lord Jesus Christ's coming.

Matthew 24:30 -- "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Mark 13:26 -- "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."

Luke 21:27 -- "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."

Acts 1:9-11 -- "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."
Revelation 1:7 -- "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.  Even so, Amen."


2.  Considering the different references to clouds in these passages and considering the specific Greek prepositions involved, we find the following:

Matthew 24:30 -- Our Lord Jesus Christ will come UPON (Greek preposition "epi") the clouds (plural) of heaven.
Mark 13:26 -- Our Lord Jesus Christ will come IN (Greek preposition "en") the clouds (plural).
Luke 21:27 -- Our Lord Jesus Christ will come IN (Greek preposition "en") a cloud (singular).
Revelation 1:7 -- Our Lord Jesus Christ will come WITH (Greek preposition "meta") clouds (plural).
Acts 1:9-11 -- Our Lord Jesus Christ will come "IN LIKE MANNER" as the disciples had seen Him go.  They saw a cloud (singular) receive (carry) Him away.  Therefore, our Lord Jesus Christ will come, being carried by a cloud (singular).

If we join all of this together, we understand the following:  When He returns, our Lord Jesus Christ will come in and by a singular cloud, being surrounded under and around by a plurality of clouds, so as to come with a plurality of clouds.


3.  Considering the phrase in Revelation 1:7, "And they also which pierced him."

John 19:34 indicates that a single Roman solider pierced Jesus' side -- "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."
Psalm 22:16 also speaks about the piercing of his hands and his feet -- "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet."
This piercing of His hands and His feet was also accomplished by Roman soldiers.

John 19:37 indicates that these piercings, especially that of His side, fulfilled an Old Testament prophecy -- "And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."
The Old Testament prophecy is that of Zechariah 12:10 -- "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

This Old Testament prophecy indicates that the reference to those who pierced Him is a reference unto "the house of David" and "the inhabitants of Jerusalem."
Yet Jesus was not literally, physically pierced by "the house of David" or "the inhabitants of Jerusalem," but literally, physically by Roman soldiers.
So then, we may understand that the phrase in Revelation 1:7 does NOT apply literally unto the Roman soldiers, but prophetically unto "the inhabitants of Jerusalem" at the time when our Lord Jesus Christ shall return in His Second Coming.  Indeed, the phrase in Revelation 1:7 refers unto the children of Israel, who will mourn with repentance at His coming.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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Again, to those in the audience who may be interested:

The reason that Brother D is so driven to argue for the idiomatic nature of Matthew 24:29-20, Mark 13:24-26, and Luke 21:25-27 is not simply due to the principle of his belief concerning the definition of Biblical idioms.  Rather, he is so driven because he believes that these prophecies were fulfilled in and around 70 AD, through events at that time concerning God's judgment upon the children of Israel and the city of Jerusalem.  However, there was no literal occurrence of the prophetic utterances in these passages at that time.  Therefore, if these prophetic utterances are to be taken literally, they could NOT have been fulfilled at that time since they did not so occur literally.  However, if he takes these prophetic utterances as idiomatic, then he can adapt them and apply them unto the events of that time, and so claim their past fulfillment.  Indeed, Brother D would also do the same with the great majority of the prophetic utterances within the Book of the Revelation.

Now, Brother D's most foundational position will be to focus upon those phrases concerning "this generation" or concerning the "soon," or "quick," or "at hand" fulfillment of these prophecies.  For him and his position, it all really does begin on that foundational ground.

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Thanks for this clarification Bro. Scott. The thought of his position being Preterist did cross my mind when he posted things such as you pointed out referring to "soon, "quick", "at hand". and "this generation." But I didn't follow through with reasoning it out since Preterism is a relatively new subject for me. I never even heard of the term before joining OB.

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On 7/16/2018 at 10:39 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1)  Acts 1:9 indicates that in His ascension our Lord Jesus Christ was received (carried) by a cloud (singular) out of the disciples' SIGHT (the reference unto physical sight is worthy of notice).  Acts 1:11 indicates that our Lord Jesus Christ will come back "in like manner" as the disciples had "SEEN him go into heaven" (again, the reference unto physical sight is worthy of notice).  That observable MANNER was by a CLOUD (singular).  Considering the specific Greek prepositions in each passage, we learn the following: Matthew 24:30 indicates a coming of our Lord Jesus Christ UPON (Greek preposition "epi") the clouds (plural) of heaven; Mark 13:26 indicates a coming of our Lord Jesus Christ IN (Greek preposition "en") clouds (plural); and Luke indicates a coming of our Lord Jesus Christ IN (Greek preposition "en") a cloud (singular).  Now, either each of these three passages is talking about a different coming, because one speaks about coming upon plural clouds, whereas another speaks about coming in plural clouds, whereas another speaks about coming in a singular cloud.  Or, all three passages are a legitimate BIBLICAL way for describing the SAME event, whether upon or in plural or singular cloud(s).  If all three of these passages are indeed a BIBLICALLY legitimate way to describe the same event, then the reference unto a singular cloud in Acts 1:9-11 cannot simply be ruled out simply because it only reference a cloud in the singular, since Luke 21:27 also only references a cloud in the singular.  (It is also worthy of notice that both the Gospel of Luke and the Book of the Acts were written by the same inspired penman.)  Furthermore, it is worthy of notice that EVERY SINGLE ONE of these passages specifies that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ WILL BE SEEN.  (Yes, I know that you believe these references unto seeing simply to be stylistic and thus trivial; however, I consider them to be a significant signal for the literal nature of these prophetic utterances in literal fulfillment of the promise that was made in Acts 1:11.)

2)  Luke 21:31 (which is a part of the context for Luke 21:27) speaks about the establishing of the KINGDOM upon the earth, and Matthew 25:31 (which is a part of the context for Matthew 24:30) speaks about our Lord Jesus Christ sitting "upon the throne of his glory" in order to judge the nations of the world.  Indeed, the kingdom reign of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the earth most certainly is reference within these contexts.

3)  Yes, I really DO think that. 

4)  Indeed, Daniel 7 does speak about an eternal kingdom because the kingdom reign of our Lord Jesus Christ upon the earth, that will begin with the thousand year reign (as per Revelation 19-20), will not be broken, but will continue into the eternal reality of the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem.

5)  Note my comment for #2) above.

6)  False Christs are NOT a "small problem."  The spirit of antichrist is NOT a "small problem."  The antichrist himself, who will himself be a false christ, will NOT be a "small problem, but will move the majority population of the whole earth to worship him, and thereby damn themselves unto the eternal torment of hell.  NOT a "small problem" AT ALL.    Even so , I am compelled to say that your trivialization of Biblical matters is somewhat offensive to this Bible student.
 

No sir. I was referring to Matthew 24:30 -- "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."  Therefore, your comments about the context of Revelation 1:7 are not really relevant.

________________________________________________________

Now then, it has not really been my expectation throughout this discussion that I would convince you to change your position.  Rather, it has been my primary intention to demonstrate unto the audience that there are definite BIBLICAL answer for your doubtful disputations.  Thus at this time I now speak to the audience of this discussion -- Throughout this thread discussion between Brother D and myself (Pastor Scott Markle), one of us has engaged the discussion primarily through actual, extensive Bible study, whereas the other has engaged the discussion primarily through personal declarations.  As members of the audience, it is your responsibility to discern which is which, and to recognize that one method stands upon the authority of God's own Word, whereas the other method stands upon the authority of a man's personal word.  

I addressed the key verse/phrase Dispensationalists use to deny Mark 13 (and related) is a prophesy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.  Jesus didn't physically come in 70 AD. I pointed out that the Old Testament sometimes uses clouds symbolically for judgement.  I pointed out "Jesus coming in the clouds" has the quality of an idiom because the context makes no discussion of the verse as if it's literal.  And, the verse itself seems to have a pointless reference to clouds, if taken literally. 

You countered that the "coming in the clouds" is like manner, in reverse, of Acts 1.  I pointed how Acts 1 is very different.   In Acts 1, the cloud serves a function.  The context treats the  ascension as a literal event.  And, the concept of judgement is completely absent from the context. 

I believe all your arguments against my position is pleading.  You point to Luke Luke 21:31 and you say it speaks about the establishing of the KINGDOM upon the earth.  But, that comment about the kingdom isn't closely connected with Jesus coming in the clouds.  Jesus has already moved on and started a parable before speaking of the kingdom of God.   Even worse for your argument, Jesus often spoke about the kingdom of God being near or at hand, and he's not talking about a physical kingdom.

I addressed your key verse.  Now you can address the rest of the chapter. 

Which Temple is Jesus pointing to, that will be destroyed?

Who is Jesus telling will be persecuted and beaten in synagogues?

Did Rome not surround Jerusalem and cause desolation in 70 AD?

What do you think the definition of "this" is?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Brother D said:

I addressed the key verse/phrase Dispensationalists use to deny Mark 13 (and related) is a prophesy of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.  Jesus didn't physically come in 70 AD. 

That is very correct. Our Lord Jesus Christ did NOT literally return in 70 AD, which is the reason that you are so driven to view the prophetic utterances of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 as idiomatic.  Because if you do not take them as idiomatic, but as literal, then you cannot claim their fulfillment at that time.

1 hour ago, Brother D said:

I pointed out that the Old Testament sometimes uses clouds symbolically for judgement. 

And while acknowledging that such is SOMETIMES true, I provided an extensive study of the Old Testament wherein I demonstrated that clouds are also use in connection with the Lord (Jehovah) God for a number of OTHER characteristics as well.  Furthermore, I demonstrated with a grammatic study that in the contexts of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, the coming of the Lord is NOT what results in the judgment, since it comes AFTER the judgment and since it BRINGS deliverance for the Lord's elect.  Finally, I demonstrated that the most closely related characteristic of the Lord to the clouds within Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 is NOT His judgment, but His POWER AND GREAT GLORY. (Not reaching at all, for it is ALL right there in the inspired Word of God)

1 hour ago, Brother D said:

I pointed out "Jesus coming in the clouds" has the quality of an idiom because the context makes no discussion of the verse as if it's literal.  And, the verse itself seems to have a pointless reference to clouds, if taken literally. 

And I pointed out that this claim is false based upon the emphasis to literal seeing that is referenced in all of the passages, just as it is in Acts 1:9-11.  The seeing aspect of Acts 1:9-11 is that which emphasizes its literal nature, and the seeing aspect of Matthew 24:30, Mark, 13:26, and Luke 21:27.  (Yes, I know that you want this seeing aspect to be "just stylistic;" but in truth it is Biblically significant.)  Thus there is NO pointlessness in the reference unto literal clouds.  In fact, there is great deal of Biblical point, as I have presented above.

1 hour ago, Brother D said:

You countered that the "coming in the clouds" is like manner, in reverse, of Acts 1.  I pointed how Acts 1 is very different.   In Acts 1, the cloud serves a function.  The context treats the  ascension as a literal event.  And, the concept of judgement is completely absent from the context. 

Actually, I have countered your argument with a whole series of Biblical studies, including a Biblical study of Acts 1:9-11.  Furthermore, Acts 1:9-11 is NOT very different.  The literal nature of the cloud in Acts 1:9 is bound up with the aspect of seeing.  The prophecy of our Lord Jesus Christ literal return by a literal cloud as per Acts 1:11 is also bound up with the aspect of seeing.  And ALL of the prophetic utterances of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 include the aspect of literal seeing.  Finally, I have demonstrated with Bible study that although Actus 1:11 does not specifically mention judgment in relation to our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming, other passages of God's Holy Word certainly DO.  

1 hour ago, Brother D said:

I believe all your arguments against my position is pleading.  You point to Luke Luke 21:31 and you say it speaks about the establishing of the KINGDOM upon the earth.  But, that comment about the kingdom isn't closely connected with Jesus coming in the clouds.  Jesus has already moved on and started a parable before speaking of the kingdom of God.   Even worse for your argument, Jesus often spoke about the kingdom of God being near or at hand, and he's not talking about a physical kingdom.

Well, let us see how close or far Luke 21:31 actually is in the context of Luke 21:27.

Luke 21:27-31 -- "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great gloryAnd when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.  And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; when they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."

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1 hour ago, Brother D said:

I addressed your key verse.  Now you can address the rest of the chapter. 

Which Temple is Jesus pointing to, that will be destroyed?

Who is Jesus telling will be persecuted and beaten in synagogues?

Did Rome not surround Jerusalem and cause desolation in 70 AD?

What do you think the definition of "this" is?

1.  The Lord Jesus Christ was pointing to the temple in Jerusalem that was then standing in His very day.

2.  Those who will be persecuted and beaten in Jewish synagogues and before various government officials are New Testament church age preachers of the gospel.

3.  Rome most certainly and literally DID surround Jerusalem and DID bring desolation to Jerusalem in 70 AD, literally destroying the temple in Jerusalem so that there literally was not one stone left standing upon another.  However, in 70 AD the abomination of desolation did not stand in the temple of Jerusalem.  THAT will occur when the antichrist sets himself up within the (rebuilt) temple, professing himself to be Messiah and God.

4.  The word "this" is a demonstrative pronoun that grammatical points to something or someone present in the context.  

So, now some questions in return:

1.  Are the children of Israel still falling by the edge of the sword?

2.  Were the children of Israel lead away captive into all nations, and are they still scattered among those nations?

3.  Is Jerusalem still being trodden down of the Gentiles?

4.  Has the times (plural) of the Gentiles already been fulfilled, or are we still in the midst of the times (plural) of the Gentiles?  (Note: To answer this question you might want to consider Romans 11:25-27.)

5.  Are all of these things to be taken literally or idiomatically?

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