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How to Understand Revelation and Daniel


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11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Not so.  Actually, what I did was provide a Biblically contextual meaning for the word "stars" in accord with the very first usage of the word in Scripture within the creation account of the very first chapter of God's Word.  Let us consider again --

1.  Does the creation account of Genesis 1 encompass the creation of all the physical universe?  Yes, it does.
2.  Are the various planets, the various moons of the various planets, the asteroids, the comets, the meteors, etc. a part of all the physical universe?  Yes, they are.
3.  On what day were these various bodies in space created, and how is that creation reported in Genesis 1?  They were created on the fourth day of the creation week, and Genesis 1:16 simply reports this creation with the phrase, "And the stars also." multitude of bodies in space.  

There are many reasons why you have no case. I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make it drink.

1) Meteors are in fact not stars.

2) The Bible never confuses meteors with stars.

3) The Bible treats stars as those points of light in the sky that stay fixed.

4) Meteors give no light until they are falling, so logically they can't be a stars, stars waiting to fall at the appointed time.

5) The Bible frequently and undeniably uses "stars" as symbols of things that are not stars.

6) If the Jesus meant there would be a meteor shower, it would be an embarrasingly pointless and random thing to mention.

7) Genesis saying God created the stars in no way makes meteors stars.  No, "stars" doesn't encompass everything in the universe that isn't our son an moon.

? I'll spare you the next 24 reasons, because this forum software has started turning my enumerations into emojis.  8 )

 

Actually, I said NOTHING about how I might specifically define the phrase "stars of heaven shall fall."  I simply demonstrated that it is NOT "impossible" or "purely absurd" to take this phrase literally within the context of a Scriptural usage for the word "stars." 

You're making an absurd appeal to avoid an absurdity of taking "stars of heaven shall fall" literally.  A handful of dark meteors are not the "stars of heaven". 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Brother D said:

There are many reasons why you have no case. I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make it drink.

1) Meteors are in fact not stars.

2) The Bible never confuses meteors with stars.

3) The Bible treats stars as those points of light in the sky that stay fixed.

4) Meteors give no light until they are falling, so logically they can't be a stars, stars waiting to fall at the appointed time.

5) The Bible frequently and undeniably uses "stars" as symbols of things that are not stars.

6) If the Jesus meant there would be a meteor shower, it would be an embarrasingly pointless and random thing to mention.

7) Genesis saying God created the stars in no way makes meteors stars.  No, "stars" doesn't encompass everything in the universe that isn't our son an moon.

1)  In our modern scientific definition, meteors are not stars.  However, we are NOT talking about our modern scientific definition; and reading back such a definition upon Scripture is simply false.

2)  Actually, Scripture does not distinguish the planets from the moons from the asteroids from the comets from the meteors, because Scripture does not speak of these things as separately defined bodies in space.  Indeed, I would ask you to provide actual Biblical evidence wherein Scripture DOES distinguish these things as separately defined bodies in space.  If you cannot, then this argument simply stands upon the authority of your personal declaration, and upon nothing more.

3)  Really.  Could you provide me with a Biblical passage wherein Scripture provides this definition for stars.

4)  Actually, any body in space that either generates light or reflects light thereby gives off light as long as you have the apparatus by which to see that light.

5) Correct.

6)  Yet I made no claim that what Jesus was talking about was a meteor shower.  Rather, I made the claim that Jesus could have been talking about any number of different bodies in space other than that which we now scientifically defines as "stars."

7)  Actually, it contextually does mean that.  Furthermore, the equivalency statement in Deuteronomy 4:19 supports that meaning.

By the way --

1.  I notice that you like to make many emphatic and absolute statements, but that you do not provide Biblical support for those statements.  When you do so, you require me to accept your declaration simply on the authority of your word.  However, I do not take my doctrinal position from the authority of a man's word, but only from the authority of God's word, as "rightly divided" through grammatical, contextual understanding.

2.  What is the physical "morning star"?

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On 7/5/2018 at 8:33 PM, Brother D said:

You know that stars are used in the OT and Revelation in a symbolic fashion.  Is there any place where you think the word star is used symbolically, even when not explicitly identified as something else?  Indeed, where in Revelation is any star ever treated literally?   

The word "star(s)," in either the singular or plural form, is found 14 times in the Book of the Revelation, and is used as follows:

1.  Revelation 1:16, 1:20 (twice), 2:1, 3:1 use the word "stars" symbolically to represent the seven angels (probably human messengers) of the seven churches.
2.  Revelation 2:28 uses the phrase "morning star" symbolically apparently to represent some reward that will be given unto the one who overcomes.
3.  Revelation 6:13, 8:10, 11, 12 uses the word "star(s)" literally (as per the Biblical meaning for the word "stars" that I have presented in previous postings).
4.  Revelation 9:1 uses the word "star" symbolically to represent the unrighteous angel over the demons of the bottomless pit.
5.  Revelation 12:1 uses the word "stars" symbolically to represent the twelve tribes of Israel.
6.  Revelation 12:4 uses the word "stars" symbolically to represent the angelic beings of heaven.
7.  Revelations 22:16 uses the phrase "bright and morning star" symbolically to represent the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
 

On 7/5/2018 at 8:33 PM, Brother D said:

Revelation is a vision, identified as signs (Rev 1:1). Everything in the vision, start to finish, is symbols.   

As I have already indicated in a previous posting:

On 7/6/2018 at 10:50 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, I also noticed how the word "signified" in Revelation 1:1 is being changed to mean "symbolized."  This change is being made according to the following pattern:

Revelation 1:1 uses the verb "SIGNIFIED," which is related to the noun "SIGN," which is equivalent in meaning to the noun "SYMBOL," which is related to the verb "SYMBOLIZED."

Now, while the verb "signified" is indeed somewhat related to the noun "sign," and while the noun "symbol" is indeed related to the verb "symbolized," it is simply false to claim that the noun "sign" and the noun "symbol" are equivalent to each other.  The noun "sign(s)" is found 65 times in the King James translation.  The great majority of those times the noun "sign(s)" refers to MIRACLES, while some of those times it refers to some form of signal concerning another event or truth.  Yet not even a single one of those times does the noun "sign(s)" mean "symbol or symbolism."  

In fact, if we remain strictly within the Book of the Revelation itself, we find that the verb "signified" is employed one time in Revelation 1:1 and that the noun "sign" is employed only one time in Revelation 15:1 -- "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."  Therein the noun "sign" does not mean "symbol," but means a signal with "great and marvelous" significance. 


 

On 7/5/2018 at 8:33 PM, Brother D said:

Revelation is a vision, identified as signs (Rev 1:1). Everything in the vision, start to finish, is symbols.   

So then --

1.  Do you believe that the seven churches in Asia were not real church bodies, but are just symbols of something else?
2.  Do you believe that the various commendations and/or condemnations of those seven churches were not about real matters in those churches, but are just symbolic?
3.  Do you believe that the devil will not really be chained in the bottomless pit for a thousand years, but that such is just symbolic?
4.  Do you believe that our Lord Jesus Christ will not really reign upon the earth for a thousand years, but that such is just symbolic?
5.  Do you believe that there will not really be a new heaven and new earth for the eternal future, but that such is just symbolic?
 

On 7/5/2018 at 8:33 PM, Brother D said:

You might be holding out for locusts with human faces, but I'm not.  And, while you're holding out, you're redefining words (while denying this blatant act) like "soon", "this generation"  and "star", for no reason other than their real meaning contradicts your doctrine.  

While I certainly expect that the prophecy concerning the demons from the bottomless pit will be fulfilled just as is prophesied in the Book of the Revelation, I am not "holding out" for that event.  Rather, I am holding out and hoping forward for the event of our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming and thousand year reign upon the earth, as recorded in Revelation 19-20.  Furthermore, I am holding out and hoping forward for the new heaven, new earth, and new Jerusalem, as recorded in Revelation 21-22.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

I believe the Second Coming is distinct from the cloud judgments.  Yes, Acts refers to the Second Coming.  The three Olivet Gospel verses do not.

Since you believe that Acts 1:11 provides a prophetic utterance concerning our Lord Jesus Christ’s Second Coming, and since you believe that Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 present a different prophetic event than Acts 1:11, I would ask --

1.  Do you believe that Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 are all referencing the same prophetic event as each other?

2.  If so, what prophetic event of our Lord Jesus Christ’s coming do you believe is presented through Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7?

Furthermore, since you believe that the reference unto “cloud(s)” is symbolic in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7, I would ask –

1.  Do you believe that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as presented in these verses is literal or symbolic?

2.  Do you believe that all of the tribes of the earth will literally see the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as presented in these verses, or that this also is symbolic?

3.  Do you believe all of the tribes of the earth will literally mourn and wail at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as presented in these verses, or that this also is symbolic?

4.  Do you believe that our Lord Jesus Christ will literally come “in power and great glory” as presented in these verses, or that this also is symbolic?

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On 7/6/2018 at 2:57 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

By far, in the Old Testament the most common connection between clouds and the Lord (Jehovah) God are references unto the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory.  In like manner, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 all also reference a connection between "cloud(s)" and our Lord Jesus Christ's glory.  

On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

In like manner?

1) The glory cloud in the OT is a physical manifestation showing God's presence.  Jesus' presence himself does this, making the glory cloud purposeless.  

2) The glory cloud in the OT is not linked to judgment.

3) The glory cloud is at ground level, not linked to clouds in the sky.

4) In Acts 1, the cloud that received Jesus is not identified as a glory cloud, but is treated just as a regular cloud.

5) Glory cloud is always used in a singular sense, but judgment clouds are usually used in the plural. There are no "glory clouds".  

Actually, my “in like manner” statement above said nothing about the character of the clouds being in like manner, or about the number of the clouds being in like manner, or about the location of the clouds being like manner.  Rather, my “in like manner” statement above only indicated that the reference to “cloud(s)” in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 is connected to our Lord Jesus Christ’s GLORY in like manner to the fact that many of cloud references in the Old Testament are connected to the Lord (Jehovah) God’s GLORY.  This is simply a Biblical FACT.

Matthew 24:30 – “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Mark 13:26 – “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.’

Luke 21:27 – “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

Thus I state again:

On 7/6/2018 at 2:57 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Actually, in ALL of the passages under question the reference to cloud(s) serves a function.  By far, in the Old Testament the most common connection between clouds and the Lord (Jehovah) God are references unto the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory.  In like manner, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27 all also reference a connection between "cloud(s)" and our Lord Jesus Christ's glory.  As such, these passages provide a connection between the glory of the Lord (Jehovah) God from the Old Testament, as noted through the cloud on Mount Sinai, through the cloud that abode with Israel in the wilderness, through the cloud that filled both the tabernacle and the temple, etc., with the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ in His Second Coming.  Indeed, the glory of the Lord (Jehovah) God in the Old Testament is the same glory as our Lord Jesus Christ in His Second Coming precisely because our Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord (Jehovah) God.  Yet while the cloud(s) of these Old Testament events represented the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory, they also were a literal, physical reality that could be literally seen.  Even so, in our Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming, the cloud(s) will also be both representative of His "power and great glory" as well as a literal, physical reality that shall be literally seen.

 

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On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

1) The glory cloud in the OT is a physical manifestation showing God's presence.  Jesus' presence himself does this, making the glory cloud purposeless.  

Indeed, often in the Old Testament it appears that the “glory cloud” itself is the very manifestation of the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory, whereas in the New Testament the Lord Jesus Christ Himself is the express image and very embodiment of the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory.  Yet the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds allows there to be connection between the Cloud of Glory within the Old Testament with the Glory (Christ Himself) in clouds within the New Testament prophecies.

Furthermore, it is not precisely accurate to indicates that connection between cloud(s) and the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory in the Old Testament is always such that the cloud(s) are the very manifestation of that glory.  When the Lord (Jehovah) God came down upon Mount Sinai, the cloud ITSELF is not presented as the manifestation of the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory.  Rather, Scripture indicates that the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory was within the cloud and surrounded by the cloud.

Exodus 24:15-18 – “And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.  And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.  And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.  And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.”

(Note: Ezekiel 1 provides a similar case.)
 

On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

2) The glory cloud in the OT is not linked to judgment.

This is simply a FALSE statement.

Exodus 14:23-25 – “And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.  And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, and took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.”

Numbers 12:4-10 – “And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation.  And they three came out.  And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.  And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.  My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?  And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.  And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.”

Numbers 16:41-50 – “But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD.  And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared.  And Moses and Aaron came before the tabernacle of the congregation.  And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment.  And they fell upon their faces.  And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.  And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people.  And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed.  Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah.  And Aaron returned unto Moses unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the plague was stayed.”

(Note: You really ought to do a better job at thorough Bible study before spouting forth such declarations.)
 

On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

3) The glory cloud is at ground level, not linked to clouds in the sky.

This is NOT precisely true.  In a few passages, Scripture indicates that the Lord God descended or came down in the cloud.  Now, by definition if the Lord God descended unto the ground level in the cloud, then He and the cloud descended and came down FROM the sky level (which is just as will occur in our Lord Jesus Christ’s coming – He will descend and come down in the clouds from the sky level unto the ground level, in like manner as he ascended).

Exodus 33:9 – “And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.”

Exodus 34:5 – “And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.”

Numbers 11:25 – “And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.”

Numbers 12:5 – “And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.”
 

On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

4) In Acts 1, the cloud that received Jesus is not identified as a glory cloud, but is treated just as a regular cloud.

Indeed, that is true. 

Thus we are moved to consider the glorious sovereignty and righteousness of the Lord (Jehovah) God as reported in Psalm 97:1-6 – “The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.  Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.  A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.  His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled.  The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.  The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.”

Thus we are moved to consider the glorious greatness and majesty of the Lord (Jehovah) God as reported in Psalm 104:1-3 – “Bless the LORD, O my soul.  O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.  Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind.”

Thus we are moved to consider the glorious exaltation and authority of the Son of Man, our Lord Jesus Christ, as reported in Daniel 7:13-14 – “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”

(Note: Ezekiel 1 is another passage worthy of consideration for this matter, especially verse 1 in relation to verse 28.)
 

Quote

5) Glory cloud is always used in a singular sense, but judgment clouds are usually used in the plural. There are no "glory clouds". 

First, whereas Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Revelation 1:7 all use the word “clouds” in the plural, the parallel passage of Luke 21:27 uses the phrase “a cloud” in the singular for the same event.  Even so, the singular or plural usage of the word “cloud(s)” may not be as distinctive for this matter as you are seeking to make it.

Second, whereas Exodus 19:16, Exodus 24:15-18, and Deuteronomy 5:22 all use the word “cloud” in the singular in connection with the glory of the Lord (Jehovah) God on Mount Sinai, Deuteronomy 4:11 uses the word “clouds” in the plural to describe the same event.

Third, as I have demonstrated in contradiction with your point #2) above, the “glory cloud” itself is indeed found sometimes in connection with judgment.  Therefore, the claim that “judgment clouds” are usually used in the plural is somewhat faulty.

Fourth, if you desire to handle this matter with this amount of precision, then we should consider with the same amount of precision those passages from the Old Testament that you suggested to support the truth of “judgment clouds.”  In an earlier posting you suggested that we consider the following four Old Testament passages: Isaiah 19:1; Ezekiel 30:3; Joel 2:2; Zephaniah 1:15.  Now, that suggestion was given with the claim that these passages would help us to understand the prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7.  So then, what are the precise elements in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 for which we should be seeking a connection with these Old Testament passages.  In the first place, we find the element of clouds.  In the second place, we find the element of our Lord’s personal presence in and with those clouds.  Do we find these two elements also in the Old Testament passages that you have suggested?

Concerning Isaiah 19:1 – “The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.”  Although this verses uses the word “cloud” in the singular, rather than in the plural, it certainly does speak about the personal presence of the Lord coming in and with a cloud for the purpose of judgment.

Concerning Ezekiel 30:3 – “For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.”  This verse speaks concerning “the day of the LORD” as being “a cloudy day,” (that is – a day of clouds, in the plural).  Certainly then, this verse connects the Lord’s judgment with a day of clouds.  However, does the context of this verse indicate that the personal presence of the Lord comes in and with those clouds?  Actually, it does not.  Rather, the context speaks about a sword coming against the Egyptians and their allies, so as to bring desolations and destruction upon them.  Furthermore, Ezekiel 30:10 reveals that this sword represents the military might of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.  As such, this judgment day of clouds does NOT involve the coming of the Lord’s personal presence, but involves the Lord’s judgment through the armies of Nebuchadnezzar.  Even so, this passage does not involve the same elements as Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7.

Concerning Joel 2:1-2 – “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.”  This passage speaks concerning “the day of the LORD” as “a day of clouds;” therefore, it does connect the Lord’s judgment with “a day of clouds.”  However, this passage and its context does NOT involve the coming of the Lord’s personal presence in and with those clouds.  Rather, it involves the coming of “a great people and a strong” with those clouds.  Indeed, the entire context Joel 2:2-11 continues to describe the coming of this great and strong people.  Even so, this passage speaks, not about the coming of the personal presence of the Lord, but about the Lord’s judgment through the coming of a great army against the children of Israel.  Only Joel 2:11 indicates the Lord’s voice would be UTTERED before that great and strong army.  On the other hand, when the Lord God’s personal presence is mentioned within the context of Joel 2, it is mentioned in connection with deliverance and blessing. (See Joel 2:27)  So then, the context of Joel 2 does not reveal that the coming of the Lord in and with clouds in Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 is necessarily intended to communicated the Lord’s coming with judgment, but rather reveals the coming of the Lord Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7 might be intended to communicate the Lord’s coming with deliverance and blessing for His own (even as we find in Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27, and Luke 21:28).

Concerning Zephaniah 1:15-16 – “That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.”  This passage speaks concerning “the great day of the LORD” (see verse 14) as “a day of wrath” and “a day of clouds and thick darkness;” therefore, it does indeed connect the Lord’s judgment with “a day of clouds.”  Furthermore, the context of this passage does indicate the coming of the Lord’s personal presence. (See Zephaniah 1:7)  However, the context of all three chapters in the Book of Zephaniah reveals that this judgment will end with a remnant from among the children of Israel coming to repentance and thereby finding deliverance and blessing. (See Zephaniah 3:9-20)  As such, the entire prophecy of Zephaniah does provide an Old Testament parallel with the prophet utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27, wherein the context indicates the outpouring of judgment before the personal coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds, and indicates the blessing of deliverance and redemption at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds.

Finally, I would also suggest a consideration of Daniel 7:13-14 – “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”  This passage speaks concerning the coming in and with “the clouds of heaven,” not simply of the Lord (Jehovah) God, but of God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.  Even so, this passage is very closely parallel with the prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, Luke 21:27, and Revelation 1:7.  Yet this passage does NOT focus upon the judgment of the Lord.  Rather, it focusses upon the sovereign authority of the Lord Jesus Christ in receiving and establishing His literal reign over the whole earth.  As such, this passage runs parallel with the prophecy of Revelation 19-20 concerning our Lord Jesus Christ’s Second Coming (in the clouds) to initiate and establish his thousand year reign over the whole earth.  Will that Second Coming involve judgment?  Indeed, Revelation 19 (and 2 Thessalonians 1:5-9) reveals that is will.  Will that Second Coming also involve deliverance and blessing?  Indeed, Revelation 20 (and 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10) reveals that it will.

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22 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Exodus 24:15-18 – “And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.  And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.  And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.  And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.”

Still, a very different thing, a singular cloud on the ground, a glory cloud vs. clouds in the sky.  Still, a singular cloud on the ground not connected to judgment vs. clouds in the sky connected to judgment.  

Thus we are moved to consider the glorious sovereignty and righteousness of the Lord (Jehovah) God as reported in Psalm 97:1-6 – “The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.  Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.  A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.  His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled.  The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.  The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.”

Psalm 97 is not a glory cloud.  It's another example of "clouds" being used figuratively for judgement.   You're making my case for me.

Exodus 34:5  – “And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.”

Exodus 34 is a glory cloud, singular, on the ground, and not connected to judgment.

Concerning Isaiah 19:1 – “The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.”  Although this verses uses the word “cloud” in the singular, rather than in the plural, it certainly does speak about the personal presence of the Lord coming in and with a cloud for the purpose of judgment.

There are no historical reports of anyone actually seeing the Lord riding on a cloud.   How did all of Egypt miss that?  The notion of riding a cloud is absurd if taken literally, which is the nature of idioms. Figurative language doesn't always have to be identical.  "Cloud" doesn't always have to be plural to be used figuratively.    Riding a cloud is a variation of coming in the clouds, both indicate judgment from the Lord. 

Finally, I would also suggest a consideration of Daniel 7:13-14 – “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.  

(Daniel 7:13) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Interpreted: (v22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High.

Visions and dreams should be taken symbolically, by default.  And, when Daniel's vision is interpreted, coming with the clouds is directly interpreted as judgement.   You continue to make my case for me.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 7/6/2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

1) The glory cloud in the OT is a physical manifestation showing God's presence.  Jesus' presence himself does this, making the glory cloud purposeless.  

On 7/10/2018 at 11:58 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, often in the Old Testament it appears that the “glory cloud” itself is the very manifestation of the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory, whereas in the New Testament the Lord Jesus Christ Himself is the express image and very embodiment of the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory.  Yet the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds allows there to be connection between the Cloud of Glory within the Old Testament with the Glory (Christ Himself) in clouds within the New Testament prophecies.

Furthermore, it is not precisely accurate to indicates that connection between cloud(s) and the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory in the Old Testament is always such that the cloud(s) are the very manifestation of that glory.  When the Lord (Jehovah) God came down upon Mount Sinai, the cloud ITSELF is not presented as the manifestation of the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory.  Rather, Scripture indicates that the Lord (Jehovah) God’s glory was within the cloud and surrounded by the cloud.

Exodus 24:15-18 – “And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.  And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.  And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.  And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.”

(Note: Ezekiel 1 provides a similar case.)

25 minutes ago, Brother D said:

Still, a very different thing, a singular cloud on the ground, a glory cloud vs. clouds in the sky.  Still, a singular cloud on the ground not connected to judgment vs. clouds in the sky connected to judgment.  

You seem to be having a hard time with understanding the context of my answers.  My above answer did NOT concern the matter of the "glory cloud" in relation to the ground or the sky.  (Note: I handled that matter in my posting above in response to your point #3, about which you seem to have made no response at all.)  Rather, my above answer concerned the matter of whether in the Old Testament the cloud in relation to the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory was always itself the manifestation of that glory.  The case of Exodus 24:15-18 demonstrates a case wherein the cloud itself was NOT the actual manifestation of the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory, but a case wherein the cloud was a literal cloud that simply covered and surrounded the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory.

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On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

2) The glory cloud in the OT is not linked to judgment.

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:58 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

This is simply a FALSE statement.

Exodus 14:23-25 – “And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.  And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, and took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.”

Numbers 12:4-10 – “And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation.  And they three came out.  And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.  And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.  My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?  And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed.  And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.”

Numbers 16:41-50 – “But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD.  And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared.  And Moses and Aaron came before the tabernacle of the congregation.  And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment.  And they fell upon their faces.  And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.  And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people.  And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed.  Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah.  And Aaron returned unto Moses unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the plague was stayed.”

(Note: You really ought to do a better job at thorough Bible study before spouting forth such declarations.)

44 minutes ago, Brother D said:

 

I notice that you did not make any comment or acknowledgement at all unto my above indication concerning the error of your point #2.  I wonder why not.

(Note: By the way, if the "glory cloud" of the Old Testament can be shown to be connected with judgement at times, as per the above passages, then falls away your attempt to exclude the Old Testament passages about the "glory cloud" from being considered as help in understanding the prophetic utterance of Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26, and Luke 21:27.)

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
added parenthetical note
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On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

3) The glory cloud is at ground level, not linked to clouds in the sky.

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:58 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

This is NOT precisely true.  In a few passages, Scripture indicates that the Lord God descended or came down in the cloud.  Now, by definition if the Lord God descended unto the ground level in the cloud, then He and the cloud descended and came down FROM the sky level (which is just as will occur in our Lord Jesus Christ’s coming – He will descend and come down in the clouds from the sky level unto the ground level, in like manner as he ascended).

Exodus 33:9 – “And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.”

Exodus 34:5 – “And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.”

Numbers 11:25 – “And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.”

Numbers 12:5 – “And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.”

40 minutes ago, Brother D said:

 

I notice that you did not make any comment or acknowledgement at all unto my above indication concerning the error of your point #3.  I wonder why not.

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40 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

You seem to be having a hard time with understanding the context of my answers.  My above answer did NOT concern the matter of the "glory cloud" in relation to the ground or the sky.  (Note: I handled that matter in my posting above in response to your point #3, about which you seem to have made no response at all.)  Rather, my above answer concerned the matter of whether in the Old Testament the cloud in relation to the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory was always itself the manifestation of that glory.  The case of demonstrates a case wherein the cloud itself was NOT the actual manifestation of the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory, but a case wherein the cloud was a literal cloud that simply covered and surrounded the Lord (Jehovah) God's glory.

Au contraire, I did respond regarding #3.  I replied to one of your verse examples, "Exodus 34 is a glory cloud, singular, on the ground, and not connected to judgment."  You gave this verse, Exodus 34:5 to attempt to prove God "came down in the cloud... FROM the sky level" (emphases yours).  But, the verse says " the Lord descended in the cloud", not "from a cloud", so the cloud could very well have been on the ground.   Also, in the previous chapter, Exodus 33:10, we're told "the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door" which implicitly is the same cloud mentioned in the next chapter.  The cloud in the shape of a pillar is identified as being on the ground.

You wish to ignore the very different contextual treatment of the glory cloud from clouds symbolizing judgment.   When the Gospels tell us of Jesus would come in the clouds, clouds representing judgment fits very well.  Jesus coming on glory clouds doesn't fit, because there never is glory clouds, there never is a glory cloud in the sky, and the glory cloud is not used in the context of judgment.

 

Edited by Brother D
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39 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I notice that you did not make any comment or acknowledgement at all unto my above indication concerning the error of your point #2.  I wonder why not.

#2, I said glory clouds are not linked to judgement.

Your first verse example to attempt to refute me:

Exodus 14:23-25 – “And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.  And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians, and took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.”

Arguably, this isn't a glory cloud, but just a tool God used to help the Israelites escape the Egyptians.  It fails the idiom test because it very much serves a function and is not absurd, unlike using clouds in the phrase like "Jesus will come in the clouds", therefor it isn't a symbol of judgment.  But, to the point, it is not linked to judgment.  The Egyptians aren't being judged.  They're just being stymied in their pursuit.  

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On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 9:08 PM, Brother D said:

3) The glory cloud is at ground level, not linked to clouds in the sky.

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:58 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

This is NOT precisely true.  In a few passages, Scripture indicates that the Lord God descended or came down in the cloud.  Now, by definition if the Lord God descended unto the ground level in the cloud, then He and the cloud descended and came down FROM the sky level (which is just as will occur in our Lord Jesus Christ’s coming – He will descend and come down in the clouds from the sky level unto the ground level, in like manner as he ascended).

Exodus 33:9 – “And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.”

Exodus 34:5 – “And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.”

Numbers 11:25 – “And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.”

Numbers 12:5 – “And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.”

1 hour ago, Brother D said:

Exodus 34 is a glory cloud, singular, on the ground, and not connected to judgment.

5 minutes ago, Brother D said:

Au contraire, I did respond regarding #3.  I replied to one of your verse examples, "Exodus 34 is a glory cloud, singular, on the ground, and not connected to judgment."  You gave this verse, Exodus 34:5 to attempt to prove God "came down in the cloud... FROM the sky level" (emphases yours).  But, the verse says " the Lord descended in the cloud", not "from a cloud", so the cloud could very well have been on the ground.   Also, in the previous chapter, Exodus 33:10, we're told "the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door" which implicitly is the same cloud mentioned in the next chapter.  The cloud in the shape of a pillar is identified as being on the ground.

You wish to ignore the very different contextual treatment of the glory cloud from clouds symbolizing judgment.   When the Gospels tell us of Jesus would come in the clouds, clouds representing judgment fits very well.  Jesus coming on glory clouds doesn't fit, because there never is glory clouds, there never is a glory cloud in the sky, and the glory cloud is not used in the context of judgment.

Ah, I see.  I missed the intention of your comment due to the ordering of your comments.  I do apologize for so missing it.

Well now, my quote above does NOT say anything about the Lord descending "from a cloud."  Rather, my quote is as follows:

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:58 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In a few passages, Scripture indicates that the Lord God descended or came down in the cloud.  Now, by definition if the Lord God descended unto the ground level in the cloud, then He and the cloud descended and came down FROM the sky level (which is just as will occur in our Lord Jesus Christ’s coming – He will descend and come down in the clouds from the sky level unto the ground level, in like manner as he ascended). (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

I did NOT indicate that the Lord descended from the cloudy sky level out of the clouds to the ground level.  Rather, I indicated that the Lord AND the cloud descended from the sky level to the ground level.  In fact, Exodus 33:9 specifically states that "THE CLOUDY PILLAR descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle."  Notice the order of the events.  First, the cloudy pillar descends (from some higher level, as per the definition of the verb "descend"); and THEN the cloudy pillar "stood at the door of the tabernacle."  So then, the door of the tabernacle is at the ground level; and the cloudy pillar first descended from sky level to that ground level of the tabernacle.  In like manner, at His coming our Lord Jesus Christ will not simply descend out of the clouds to the ground level, but will descend in the clouds to the ground level.

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