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CelinaCelinaCelina

How to Understand Revelation and Daniel

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I've read the book of Revelation and Daniel at least twice before, but I wasn't really able to understand the prophecies therein.
I know that the Holy Spirit will guide you of all truth but I don't really know how to understand it.

I can read some opinions from other Christians but how will I know if they are right?

How were you guys able to finally understand those books?
 

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By reading and attempting to understand all the other books. Genesis through Revelation. Each book builds onto the next. Prophesy is not for the novice but is basically the pinnacle that sits on top of a person's culmination of scripture knowledge. You cannot understand an end of a thing until you first learn about it's beginning and substance. Daniel happens after the kingdom of the nation of Israel is taken away and Revelation happens after God's church is taken away. Too often many try to interpret prophesy without first learning anything about God's order, of Israel, of His church, or of the world in general. Prophesy books or bible lessens from Godly men you trust can help get a broad overview of events or suggested meanings but in order to fully grasp prophesy yourself you need to be patient and open to learning the foundational aspects of scripture first.

Daniel 12:8-10 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Edited by John Young

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Here is a very broad overview.

The prophecies of the Old Testament prophets concerning the Messiah and His sufferings (Isaiah 53 for example), were fulfilled in the the Lord Jesus Christ at His coming as revealed in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

The prophecies of the prophets concerning the cleansing of the rebels of the nation of Israel, the judgments pronounced on the nations of the world (not only the nations surrounding Israel), are fulfilled as revealed in Book of Revelation.

The proper sequence of the fulfillment of the prophets concerning the nation of Israel, and the the judgments of the nations of the world, are revealed in Revelation chapter 6-20 

The fulfillment of the restoration of the nation of Israel, with the Messiah as King and Judge, is revealed in Revelation 20:4-6

There are no prophecies concerning the church in the Old Testament.

My wife just called me to supper, so, more to come later ....

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12 hours ago, Alan said:

 

The fulfillment of the restoration of the nation of Israel, with the Messiah as King and Judge, is revealed in Revelation 20:4-6

Seems to me that this refers to those millions of martyrs murdered by the papal beast.5

There are no prophecies concerning the church in the Old Testament.

Of course there are.  Acts 3:24  Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

 

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Invicta,

You are mistaken. Revelation 20:4-6 is the literal 1000 Year Reign of Christ as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Acts 2:34 is referring to the first coming of the Lord Jesus as a Lamb to take away the sins of the world.

Celina, and the Brethren,

I had previously covered the literal fulfillment of the prophecies concerning Revelation 20:4-6 on another thread; here is the link to that study.

If anyone has any question concerning any of the lessons dealing with the prophecies of the Old Testament and the fulfillment in Revelation 20:4-6 I would gladly answer them in the thread that I linked to, "Revelation Bible Study."

Concerning Acts 3:24

The context of Peter's sermon in Acts 3:12-26 is a sermon on the first coming of Christ as the suffering Messiah, as prophesied in Isaiah 53, for the sins of the world. Invicta miss-applied that one verse (he took it out of context), to give the apostle Peter's message a different meaning.

I would suggest the brethren look closely at Acts 3:14-18 and following. The apostle Peter clearly tells the audience to repent and believe the prophets. "But those things, which God before hath shewed by the mouth of his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled." Acts 3:18 Peter is clearly referring to the prophecies concerning Christ suffering as Messiah; he is not referring to any prophecies concerning the church.

Alan

 

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Celina, I would counsel you to ignore pretty much anything Invicta says about prophecy.

His position on such matters is certainly not Baptist, and it is also not Biblical.

He will lead into false interpretive practices, and therefore to false conclusions.

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27 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Celina, I would counsel you to ignore pretty much anything Invicta says about prophecy.

His position on such matters is certainly not Baptist, and it is also not Biblical.

He will lead into false interpretive practices, and therefore to false conclusions.

And I would counsel you to ignore anything DaveW says about prophecy  His teachings are not Baptist but Plymouth Brethren. I have been there, I know.

Edited by Invicta

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1 hour ago, Invicta said:

And I would counsel you to ignore anything DaveW says about prophecy  His teachings are not Baptist but Plymouth Brethren. I have been there, I know.

What is this? Childishness day?

This is nothing more than a false accusation and a slander.

I do not even know the teachings of the Plymouth Brethren, but I know you constantly lie about many issues and make up your own histories to suit yourself.

I gave a just a warning, and one that would be supported by many here, and can be plainly shown to be true - and has been on occasion.

Now how about you leave the thread for some useful information.

 

Edited by DaveW

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19 hours ago, Celina Capalad said:

I've read the book of Revelation and Daniel at least twice before, but I wasn't really able to understand the prophecies therein.
I know that the Holy Spirit will guide you of all truth but I don't really know how to understand it.

I can read some opinions from other Christians but how will I know if they are right?

How were you guys able to finally understand those books?
 

One thing to keep in mind is that you do not have to understand everything right now.

2Pe 3:16
(16)  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
 

It is a hard thing to do, but we sometimes need to just accept the fact that we are not ready to understand a passage fully. Let it be, and maybe next time your come to read it you will understand something more.

In the debate section there is a lengthy debate regarding Daniel chapter 9 where many aspects are brought forth. You could do far worse than taking the time to read it. You will see in there two vastly differing styles of interpretation, and that in itself will help you with your study, aside from the information included.

It is here.

 

The thing to keep in mind is that the Bible says what it means and means what it says.

Compare everything that you are told about prophecy with the Bible.

Read every passage that is referenced and see if it really is saying what the writer or teacher says it means.

Use your Bible search program (I use e-sword) to find other passages that talk about the same sorts of things, but remember that just because the same word is used, that doesn't mean that it is the exactly the same thing. When you read a "Cross-reference" from a writer, you may find that it is talking about a similar sounding battle, but when you read the full passages that describe the battle, you find it is actually a different battle in each passage. (or whatever event you are researching).

I rarely teach about prophecy because there is so much I do not understand properly. When I do teach, I am always careful to let people know when I am in area that I am unsure about, and I present it only on that basis.

I have no problem at all in letting people know that I am still learning when it comes to the Bible. I do my best, but I still have a long way to go.

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3 hours ago, DaveW said:

One thing to keep in mind is that you do not have to understand everything right now.

2Pe 3:16
(16)  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
 

It is a hard thing to do, but we sometimes need to just accept the fact that we are not ready to understand a passage fully. Let it be, and maybe next time your come to read it you will understand something more.

In the debate section there is a lengthy debate regarding Daniel chapter 9 where many aspects are brought forth. You could do far worse than taking the time to read it. You will see in there two vastly differing styles of interpretation, and that in itself will help you with your study, aside from the information included.

It is here.

 

The thing to keep in mind is that the Bible says what it means and means what it says.

Compare everything that you are told about prophecy with the Bible.

Read every passage that is referenced and see if it really is saying what the writer or teacher says it means.

Use your Bible search program (I use e-sword) to find other passages that talk about the same sorts of things, but remember that just because the same word is used, that doesn't mean that it is the exactly the same thing. When you read a "Cross-reference" from a writer, you may find that it is talking about a similar sounding battle, but when you read the full passages that describe the battle, you find it is actually a different battle in each passage. (or whatever event you are researching).

I rarely teach about prophecy because there is so much I do not understand properly. When I do teach, I am always careful to let people know when I am in area that I am unsure about, and I present it only on that basis.

I have no problem at all in letting people know that I am still learning when it comes to the Bible. I do my best, but I still have a long way to go.

Thank you!

I'm currently reading the debate now.
Thanks!

 

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Celina,

Very happy to hear that you are reading the debate between Pastor Markle and Covenanter on Daniel 9:24-27

At times the debate is hard to understand and follow. Do not get discouraged. Pastor Markle uploaded a PDF file on the debate. I would suggest you get the PDF and study it at your leisure. Pastor Markle was correct in his interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 Here is the link to his PDF files:

In interpreting Daniel (and other prophetic prophecies of the Old Testament, remember that all of the prophecies are literal (with some descriptive symbolism on occasion), and primarily directed to the physical blessings to the nation of Israel. 

There are two general verses in the New Testament that are given to us in order to help us understand prophecy. If you study Daniel and Revelation with these two general thoughts in mind, it will be a beginning in your understanding of the prophecies of the scriptures.

I will briefly use the debate between Pastor Markle and Covenanter as an example. Pastor Markle believed that the promises in the Old Testament of the coming Kingdom of God on the earth was given to the Jews and Covenanter believes that all of the promises in the Old Testament were either fulfilled in the Old Testament, given to the church in the New Testament, or symbolically fulfilled in the New Testament church. Covenanter was in error concerning the prophecies of the Old Testament.

Although Pastor Markle may not mention these verses, you may notice how he uses the concept of these two verses in his interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27

1. "Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God." 1 Corinthians 10:32 the Apostle Paul clearly differentiates between the Jew, the Gentiles and the church of God (the saved saints in the church age). In the physical blessings of the coming (and last), kingdom on the earth, as revealed in Revelation 20:4-6 and Daniel 7:9-14 and 27, Pastor Markle was able to differentiate between the passages of scripture dealing with the Jews, Gentiles and the saved saints. Covenanter believed that God will not bless the Jews with a restored nation and was not able to differentiate between the  promises in the Bible given to the Jews, the Gentiles, and the saints.

2. "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15 In the debate between Pastor Markle and Covenanter, Pastor Markle was able to 'rightly divide' the scriptures while Covenanter was not able to 'rightly divide' the scriptures.

Hope the above thoughts will help you in your walk with the Lord as you study Daniel and Revelation.

Alan

 

 

Edited by Alan
added the scripture reference

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Celina,

I have a little more time on my hands and I wanted to explain why I had previously said that, "There are no prophecies concerning the church in the Old Testament."

And, I wanted to give you some more material for you in your study of how to understand the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.

On 2017/4/26 at 7:06 PM, Alan said:

There are no prophecies concerning the church in the Old Testament.

 

The Apostle Peter said the saints in the dispensation of the church age are to receive spiritual blessings in lieu of the physical blessings that the nation of Israel is to receive. In the New Testament, there is not one physical promise given to the church. For example. The Jews were promised land; the Church is promised no land. The total inheritance of the Gentile saints in reserved for us in heaven; in eternity we are given a new body, a home in the New Jerusalem, and other blessings in eternity.

"To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you... Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." 1Peter 1:4 and 9 The end of the blessings, and promises of all the Gentile saints, is the salvation of our souls.

The  Apostle Paul stated concerning the blessings that the saints in the church were to receive (all spiritual none are physical). Also, please take careful note, these blessing within the dispensation of the church was 'hidden' from the past generations, or the generations of the Old Testament saints, and the prophets. "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Where I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to the saints." Colossians 1:24-26 

The church is not promised the physical blessings of the restored kingdom of God on the earth, Revelation 20:4-6, nor is the promises given to the Jews in the Old testament given to the church.

In the Larkin thread, I discussed these matters more fully in the context of Daniel and Revelation. Here are two links that you may use:

On 2015/10/7 at 7:14 AM, Alan said:

I do hope that the discussion on Jeremiah 29 and 30 and its relationship of the time of Jacob's trouble as prophesied in Jeremiah 30:7-9 has been a blessing to all of you. If there are any other topics that need to be discussed concerning the book of Revelation by Larkin please let me know.

One fact that some brethren often overlook when studying chapter Revelation 6:1-19:10, the 7 Year Tribulatian Period, is that all the signs given by the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24 (discussed by Larkin on pages 62-64) are given to the Jews and not to the saints in the church age. We need to remind ourselves what the Lord Jesus told the early church.

The Lord Jesus plainly stated to the disciples concerning His coming again and restoring the kingdom to Israel, (see Acts 1:6), "And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." Acts 1:7 None of the signs of the times listed in the scriptures are for the church; they are all for the Jews.

Alan

 

 

On 2015/10/13 at 3:40 PM, Alan said:

Invicta,

Thank you. Your friend is correct; the tribulation period will happen sometime. Give my regards to Ian.

“Revelation 6:1-19:21, Overview.”

By Clarence Larkin

Review by Alan

Four review notes by Alan.

  1. The charts in this review are copied from my own book. As there is not a page number on some of the doubled charts, I am giving the reader the page number before and after the chart in question.

  2. When I quote Larkin, I will quote him as he wrote; i.e., Capitalization, bold print, punctuation and COMPLETE WORD CAPITALIZATION.     

  3. I have changed my title of this overview from, “Revelation 6:1-19:10,” to, “Revelation 6:1-19:21,” to reflect Larkins’ rendering of Daniel’s Seventieth Week.[1]

  4. The charts are not given a number designation.

“Daniel’s Seventy Weeks.”

Clarence Larkin, from page 48-52, convincingly proves that the events from Revelation 6:1-19:21, are in fulfillment of the prophecy given to Daniel in Daniel 9:1-27.

Larkin says, “The Vision of the “SEVENTY WEEKS” is the most important revelation, in many ways, made in the Scriptures. We are here told that this Period of “SEVENTY WEEKS” was determined upon Daniel’s people ( the Jews ), and upon the HOLY CITY ( Jerusalem ). This is very important. It discloses the fact that the “SEVENTY WEEKS” have nothing to do with the Gentiles, or the Church, but only with the JEWS and JERUSALEM. It also discloses another important fact that the “SEVENTY WEEKS” only cover the period when the Jews are DWELLING IN THEIR OWN LAND, and does not cover the present period of their Dispersion. We are told in verse 24 that those “SEVENTY WEEKS” were determined for a SIX-FOLD purpose.”[2]

Larkin then goes into suitable detail to prove his interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 and the fulfillment thereof in Revelation 6:1-19:21

Larkin sets the foundation of the fulfilled prophecy in Revelation according to the prophecy given to Daniel in Daniel 9:1-27 Larkin proceeds to interpret each statement in Daniel 9:24-27 with the proper relationship with the nation of Israel according to Old and New Testament scripture. For example: Romans 11:26 & 27; Zechariah 12:10, 13:1; Isaiah 66:8; Habakkuk 2:14; Ezekiel 41; Zechariah 6:12 & 13, etc...

Larkin goes into the necessary detail with the dating involved in Daniel 9:24-27

Larkin’s, “The Tribulation Period or Daniel’s

  Seventieth Week” the Reign of the Antichrist.” Chart.

 

Larkin 70 Week Chart.jpg

 

 

The above chart is located between page 48 and 49

Coupled with the above chart, Larkin then proceeds with another chart to show the relationship of the timing of Daniel’s Seventy Weeks as compared with the, “Times of the Gentiles.”

Larkin’s, “SEVENTY WEEKS” “Times of the Gentiles,” chart

 

 

Larkin 70th. Week Chart Page 51.jpg

 

The above chart is on page 51.

Matthew 24 and Revelation 6

Immediately after his dissertation on Daniel 9 Larkin gives us some interesting similarities between the, “Olivet Discourse,” of the Lord Jesus and the order of fulfillment in Revelation 6.

Larkin’s, “Comparison of Christ’s “Olivet Discourse” and “Revelation Six,” charts.

 

Larkin Matt. 24 Chart Page 62 & 63.jpg

 

 

 

The above chart (one of two charts), in found on page 62 & 63

 

Larkin Matt 24 Chart Page 64.jpg

 

 

This chart (number two of two charts), is found on page 64.

 

 

[1] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d., Page 48

[2] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d., Page 49

 

 

 

Celina,

Here is the link to the Larkin thread:

Edited by Alan
grammer spelling not to no

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On 4/26/2017 at 5:00 AM, Celina Capalad said:

I've read the book of Revelation and Daniel at least twice before, but I wasn't really able to understand the prophecies therein.
I know that the Holy Spirit will guide you of all truth but I don't really know how to understand it.

I can read some opinions from other Christians but how will I know if they are right?

How were you guys able to finally understand those books?
 

Daniel 11:36-45 describes Ezekiel 38 & 39 and Revelation 6:1-17

Daniel 12:1-7 describes Revelation 12:1-17 And Zachariah 14:1-5 The earth will open and swallow the army of Antichrist as the Red sea swallowed the army of Egypt.

Reading and understanding all the prophets will help you understand Revelation.

 

Edited by Eric Stahl

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On 2017-4-27 at 2:09 AM, DaveW said:

I do not even know the teachings of the Plymouth Brethren, but I know you constantly lie about many issues and make up your own histories to suit yourself.

If you don't know them, how can you say you don't follow them?

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3 minutes ago, Invicta said:

If you don't know them, how can you say you don't follow them?

What a moronic question.....

I can't possibly "follow them" if I don't know what they are.

I may walk a similar path - that I wouldn't know - but I cannot follow if I don't know.

 But it is never beyond you to twist anything you like to try to make me look bad.

And this is, quite simply, nothing more than a deliberate attempt to belittle me. However, all you have succeeded in doing is to once again display the lack of basic logic that you show in many of your posts.

And it shows your propensity for false accusation and deliberate misrepresentation.

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I feel like this is not a place of love. Christians turn more people away from salvation by pointing fingers at each other and arguing about who has the correct interpretations of Gods words. Jesus invited the woman at the well to give him a drink of water. He was forgiving, he didn't tell her her belief in him was the wrong interpretation. He blessed her and told her to sin no more. He didn't say, here is what I mean by that. It was good enough that she believed he was the messiah.

Shame on you for bickering instead of walking in humility for the sake of humanity. No one knows what happens after we die. We do know Christ  wants us to believe he is the Son of God and have faith in him. Peace.

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Celina and the Brethren,

I had previously started a thread on, "Prophecy School of Interpretation." Here is the link:

Some of the comments on that thread may help you in understanding the various methods of interpreting scripture. The two main schools of interpreting the prophecies of the scripture is the 'Futuristic' and the 'Historical.' I considered "A-millennialism' as a third method in that thread as part of the initial discussion.  I will clarify that with the following statement: "The 'Allegorical' and the 'Symbolic' methods of interpretation usually fall under the 'Historical' method of interpretation and has produced the 'A-millennialism' doctrine concerning the prophecies in Revelation

The 'Futuristic' method has produced, I believe, the correct pre-millennial method of interpretation of the prophecies of the scriptures.

I hope this brief study, and reference to the link on, "Prophecy Method of Interpretation," will be a help to you and any of the other brethren. If you, or anybody else, would like to discuss different methods of interpretation on the other thread that is fine with me.

Alan

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22 hours ago, Alan said:

The 'Allegorical' and the 'Symbolic' methods of interpretation usually fall under the 'Historical' method of interpretation and has produced the 'A-millennialism' doctrine concerning the prophecies in Revelation

Not so.

The main interpretations, or understandings are.

1 Historical, or Continuous Historical.  The true understanding as always been taught by the non Catholics.

2, Preterist.  A Catholic teaching.

3. Futurist, with its many variations.  Another Catholic invention. As in Preterist, invented to counter the true teaching that the Pope is Antichrist.

4 Allegorical.  Or the Spiritual.  Teaches that Revelation has only a spiritual  application and various allegoric applications.

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14 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Not so. I disagree with this statement.

The main interpretations, or understandings are.

1 Historical, or Continuous Historical.  The true understanding as always been taught by the non Catholics. The Continuous Historical is the result of Historical and is not considered a true method. The Historical method is not true at all. I have proven it not true in my Revelation Bible Study thread on numerous occasions. The Historical method is false and is the method of the Preterist and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

2, Preterist.  A Catholic teaching. The Preterist method is a result of the Historical method.

3. Futurist, with its many variations.  Another Catholic invention. As in Preterist, invented to counter the true teaching that the Pope is Antichrist. The Futurist method is not, I repeat not, a Catholic invention. As other threads here on OnLine Baptist has already brought out, and I have brought out in my Revelation Chapter 19-22 Study, the futuristic method was the method of interpretation by the early church fathers long before the Catholic church taught a-millennialism.  Your post is a historical non-truth.

4 Allegorical.  Or the Spiritual.  Teaches that Revelation has only a spiritual  application and various allegoric applications. The Allegorical, or Spiritual, method falls under the heading of the Historical method.

Invicta,

In order to simplify the main methods of interpreting the scriptures to a relatively simple explanation, in my explanations I gave Celina, and all of the brethren, the two main methods of interpreting the scriptures: the Historical and Futurist methods that are commonly accepted among IFB brethren. And, I gave the results of those two methods. In your explanation you combined the results and added some thoughts which are in error. In fact, your post is somewhat confusing. I have put my thoughts in red fonts in your posts in reply.

Alan

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On 11/07/2017 at 0:29 AM, Alan said:

The Continuous Historical is the result of Historical and is not considered a true method. The Historical method is not true at all. I have proven it not true in my Revelation Bible Study thread on numerous occasions. The Historical method is false and is the method of the Preterist and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

No.  You have stated it, that is not proof..   It has nothing to do with Preterist which is mainly a literal interpretation.  They take the Rev, Temple as the literal temple before AD 70.  The Historical is mot false.

On 11/07/2017 at 0:29 AM, Alan said:

The Preterist method is a result of the Historical method.

Nonsense.  The Preterist was promoted by the Catholic Alcazar to challenge the true teaching that the Pope is Antichrist.

On 11/07/2017 at 0:29 AM, Alan said:

The Futurist method is not, I repeat not, a Catholic invention. As other threads here on OnLine Baptist has already brought out, and I have brought out in my Revelation Chapter 19-22 Study, the futuristic method was the method of interpretation by the early church fathers long before the Catholic church taught a-millennialism.  Your post is a historical non-truth.

No Sir,  You are wrong.  You can check this by reading writings such as Cardinal Belarmine and others about the same time, which are available on line..  The futurist teaching is not the teaching of the early church "fathers".  Also long before the Catholic church taught futurism..  They taught for instance, that the Anthrist would be revealed on the fall of the Roman Empire and the Emperor., that the temple in Revelation was the church, that after the Antichrist was destroyed would be the end of all things.

On 11/07/2017 at 0:29 AM, Alan said:

Your post is a historical non-truth.

I am sorry Brother, but I  can only think that you have not read the history, only what people have said about it.  Very dangerous.It is very obvious that you have not studied the "fathers"

On 11/07/2017 at 0:29 AM, Alan said:

The Allegorical, or Spiritual, method falls under the heading of the Historical method.

It that wasn't so sad I would consider it laughable.  David Cloud says that and he should know better. Historical is as Rev 1 says, signified, or figurative  or as we would say, symbolic.  Allegorical, means that there is no actual fulfillment just spiritual truths.

 

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Invicta,

I am not going to argue the matter and let my two posts stand as they are.

Celina,

All of the above material, talked mentioned by Invicta and I, has been discussed numerous times here on OnLine Baptist and I do not want to continue the discussion on your thread. I will give you, and anybody else, who wants to research whether or not the early church fathers were pre-millenial, the following website for reference: http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918

Alan

 

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3 hours ago, Invicta said:

No.  You have stated it, that is not proof..   It has nothing to do with Preterist which is mainly a literal interpretation.  They take the Rev, Temple as the literal temple before AD 70.  The Historical is mot false.

Nonsense.  The Preterist was promoted by the Catholic Alcazar to challenge the true teaching that the Pope is Antichrist.

No Sir,  You are wrong.  You can check this by reading writings such as Cardinal Belarmine and others about the same time, which are available on line..  The futurist teaching is not the teaching of the early church "fathers".  Also long before the Catholic church taught futurism..  They taught for instance, that the Anthrist would be revealed on the fall of the Roman Empire and the Emperor., that the temple in Revelation was the church, that after the Antichrist was destroyed would be the end of all things.

I am sorry Brother, but I  can only think that you have not read the history, only what people have said about it.  Very dangerous.It is very obvious that you have not studied the "fathers"

It that wasn't so sad I would consider it laughable.  David Cloud says that and he should know better. Historical is as Rev 1 says, signified, or figurative  or as we would say, symbolic.  Allegorical, means that there is no actual fulfillment just spiritual truths.

 

I would simply ask folks to consider both sides of this argument from the point of view of the two people involved:

Alan is known as a thorough teacher who uses a large amount of Bible in his posts.

Invicta is known as one who presents false histories to suit his own point of view. One only has to search out the name Darby on this site to find Invicta falsely attributing all sorts of doctrines to him and also to find refutations of his false claims.

 

Of these, I would far more inclined to trust Alan's information than anything Invicta posts.

 

And I know for a certainty that much of what Invicta has posted here is false.

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2 hours ago, DaveW said:

I would simply ask folks to consider both sides of this argument from the point of view of the two people involved:

Alan is known as a thorough teacher who uses a large amount of Bible in his posts.

Invicta is known as one who presents false histories to suit his own point of view. One only has to search out the name Darby on this site to find Invicta falsely attributing all sorts of doctrines to him and also to find refutations of his false claims.

 

Of these, I would far more inclined to trust Alan's information than anything Invicta posts.

 

And I know for a certainty that much of what Invicta has posted here is false.

If you are referring to my differing from Alan regarding the ECF.  Then you have never read them. 

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No - simply, I am referring to your consistent twisting of history and Bible to suit your own ideas, which has been seen many many times.

Alan on the hand most often writes thoughtful and biblically referenced material here.

THIS is the point I make - if people compare what you have written on this forum over the years with what Alan has written over the years they will quickly come to the conclusion that Alan is far, far, far more reliable than you are. 

In a simple matter of "he says vs he says" there is a no contest on past record: Alan has a far greater reliability than you.

You make stuff up and lie about stuff.

Proven, shown, and seen many times over.

If anyone doubts that, a quick search as I suggested above will supply ample proof. And I would encourage people to do said search and not just take my word for it.

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