Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

Did the Holy Spirit leave


Recommended Posts

  • Members

To Scott, Wretched and Dave,

Thank you for your input.  I will consider it more in depth and respond accordingly.  Basically this is not the first time I have read of the lost fellowship with God and in fact it does make sense.  I need to dwell on your responses before replying.  I am not opposed to my understanding being enlightened causing change after all the goal is biblical truth, but like many I am comfortable where I now stand.  lol 

Thanks again

Edited by Orval
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
25 minutes ago, Orval said:

To Scott, Wretched and Dave,

Thank you for your input.  I will consider it more in depth and respond accordingly.  Basically this is not the first time I have read of the lost fellowship with God and in fact it does make sense.  I need to dwell on your responses before replying.  I am not opposed to my understanding being enlightened causing change after all the goal is biblical truth, but like many I am comfortable where I now stand.  lol 

Thanks again

Certainly.  It is only right that an individual should search the Scriptures BEFORE making a change in doctrinal position.  Our authority for true doctrine is NOT another individual's well-sounding argument, no matter how much it may appear to "make sense" and no matter how much we may respect that individual as a student of God's Word.  Rather, our authority for true doctrine is ALWAYS the teaching of God's own Word on the matter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Brother Orval,

As a support for my position, I present the following passages for your consideration.  These passages are intended to reveal either that all living human individuals possess a "spirit-part" of their essential existence, or that unbelievers still possesses a "spirit-part" of their essential existence.  (Note: I purposely attempted not to include any passages wherein the word "spirit" seems to be employed for the human "spirit-attitude," but only to include passages wherein the word "spirit" seems to be employed for the human "spirit-essence.")

Numbers 16:22 - "And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?"

Numbers 27:16 - "Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation."

Psalm 76:12 - "He shall cut off the spirit of princes: he is terrible to the kings of the earth."

Proverbs 16:2 - "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits."

Ecclesiastes 8:8 - "There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it."

Ecclesiastes 11:5 - "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

1 Corinthians 2:11 - "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."

James 2:26 - "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 11:46 AM, wretched said:

I wonder if the Spiritual third of Adam and Eve were not original from God in their creation. Vice, the substitutionary indwelling we receive when born again from God the HS Himself who quickens and seals us until the day of redemption. Which indicates to me that something else occurs after the day of redemption. Perhaps the Spiritual third independent of the HS is once again reinstated with our glorified bodies.

Nevertheless, interesting topic. 

Brother wretched,

Forgive me for not answering your consideration.  I believe the "day of redemption" is the day our bodies will be changed.1 Cor. 15:54.  my primary question deals with the spirit of man in conjunction with the Holy Spirit and mans decision making process. 

Edited by Orval
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
2 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Orval,

As a support for my position, I present the following passages for your consideration.  These passages are intended to reveal either that all living human individuals possess a "spirit-part" of their essential existence, or that unbelievers still possesses a "spirit-part" of their essential existence.  (Note: I purposely attempted not to include any passages wherein the word "spirit" seems to be employed for the human "spirit-attitude," but only to include passages wherein the word "spirit" seems to be employed for the human "spirit-essence.")

Numbers 16:22 - "And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?"

Numbers 27:16 - "Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation."

Psalm 76:12 - "He shall cut off the spirit of princes: he is terrible to the kings of the earth."

Proverbs 16:2 - "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits."

Ecclesiastes 8:8 - "There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it."

Ecclesiastes 11:5 - "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

1 Corinthians 2:11 - "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."

James 2:26 - "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Thanks so much for the verses Scott.  I have been trying to look at the "spirit of man" the last couple of days and am now reading Shafer's doctrinal summarization of the human body.  I have allowed myself to be side tracked on a couple of other threads (lol) and have not done my due diligence to my own post.  These verses will be a great help in that I did not consider the plurality of spirit.  Several thoughts are going through my mind currently but the primary thought is that its pretty clear that the spirit of man did not depart with the fall of Adam and Eve.  Therefore, I must ask myself if the spirit of fallen man effects the decision making process of the soul of man?  The primary point of my post has not changed, how the believer makes decisions before salvation and after salvation is of great concern. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
9 minutes ago, Orval said:

Thanks so much for the verses Scott.  I have been trying to look at the "spirit of man" the last couple of days and am now reading Shafer's doctrinal summarization of the human body.  I have allowed myself to be side tracked on a couple of other threads (lol) and have not done my due diligence to my own post.  These verses will be a great help in that I did not consider the plurality of spirit.  Several thoughts are going through my mind currently but the primary thought is that its pretty clear that the spirit of man did not depart with the fall of Adam and Eve. 

Brother Orval,

You are more than welcome for what help I was able to be.

10 minutes ago, Orval said:

Therefore, I must ask myself if the spirit of fallen man effects the decision making process of the soul of man?  The primary point of my post has not changed, how the believer makes decisions before salvation and after salvation is of great concern. 

Concerning your question -- I believe that the spirit of an individual is integrally involved in "the decision making process of the soul of man" for the purpose of all spiritual (in relation to God) matters.  I believe that the spirit of "fallen man" is completely dead (separated from God's fellowship and righteousness) "in trespasses and sins," and thus is completely given to ungodliness and sinfulness.  I believe that it is in this very manner by which a lost sinner is a child of the devil, a child of disobedience, and a child of spiritual darkness.  As such, I believe that it is this complete ungodliness and sinfulness of the lost sinner's spirit which plunges their entire soul in spiritual darkness, such that their minds are filled with spiritual vanity, their understanding is overcome by spiritual darkness, their hearts are bound by spiritual blindness, their emotion is without spiritual feeling, and their behavior is given to selfish lusts. (see Ephesians 4:17-19)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
1 minute ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Orval,

You are more than welcome for what help I was able to be.

Concerning your question -- I believe that the spirit of an individual is integrally involved in "the decision making process of the soul of man" for the purpose of all spiritual (in relation to God) matters.  I believe that the spirit of "fallen man" is completely dead (separated from God's fellowship and righteousness) "in trespasses and sins," and thus is completely given to ungodliness and sinfulness.  I believe that it is in this very manner by which a lost sinner is a child of the devil, a child of disobedience, and a child of spiritual darkness.  As such, I believe that it is this complete ungodliness and sinfulness of the lost sinner's spirit which plunges their entire soul in spiritual darkness, such that their minds are filled with spiritual vanity, their understanding is overcome by spiritual darkness, their hearts are bound by spiritual blindness, their emotion is without spiritual feeling, and their behavior is given to selfish lusts. (see Ephesians 4:17-19)

I agree!  I have a particular subject to write about but the foundation of my subject must be meticulously studied before the whole can be presented.  I must understand the spirit of man, the soul of man and the abiding work of the Holy Spirit and how they work in harmony, without any error on my part. 

It is my hope that others will join in this discussion and ask questions they have. 

      

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
23 minutes ago, Orval said:

I agree!  I have a particular subject to write about but the foundation of my subject must be meticulously studied before the whole can be presented.  I must understand the spirit of man, the soul of man and the abiding work of the Holy Spirit and how they work in harmony, without any error on my part. 

It is my hope that others will join in this discussion and ask questions they have. 

Well then, I pray that my postings may be of help to you in your research and writing.

Concerning the question that I asked earlier in the thread, allow me to adapt it a bit -- Do you believe that the Holy Spirit IS the regenerate spirit within a believer?

I myself do not believer so, primarily on the ground of Romans 8:16 -- "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."  With the reference to "the children of God," it would appear that the apostle Paul is definitely speaking concerning those who are regenerate believers.  Even so, in relation to regenerate believers, the apostle speaks of the indwelling Holy Spirit as a separate entity from "our spirit," such that the indwelling Holy Spirit bears witness WITH "our spirit."

Yet this does raise another question -- If the nature of the unregenerate spirit in lost sinner is as I have presented above, what is the nature of the regenerate spirit in a saved believer?  (Yes, I have an answer; yet I would have you to consider the question before I give my answer.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Proverbs 16:2 - "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits."

I too appreciate you bringing all of these verses together, it is very helpful on a topic which I never imagined. The one verse above is going to send me on a hunting mission. My brakes did an immediate halt. Did you or anyone following hesitate when they considered this verse. The more I think now without investigating, it appears to be speaking to the sinner and the saint.

I'm 63 yrs., and am just now understanding my seniors saying, "the more I know, the more I know I don't."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
1 hour ago, Orval said:

I agree!  I have a particular subject to write about but the foundation of my subject must be meticulously studied before the whole can be presented.  I must understand the spirit of man, the soul of man and the abiding work of the Holy Spirit and how they work in harmony, without any error on my part. 

It is my hope that others will join in this discussion and ask questions they have. 

      

Give me some time to catch my breath. For the most part I'm completely dumb founded by the entire context. However, I did see a scripture given above which I've already mentioned. It will cause me to do an independent study and lean on several commentaries, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Well then, I pray that my postings may be of help to you in your research and writing.

Concerning the question that I asked earlier in the thread, allow me to adapt it a bit -- Do you believe that the Holy Spirit IS the regenerate spirit within a believer?

I myself do not believer so, primarily on the ground of Romans 8:16 -- "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."  With the reference to "the children of God," it would appear that the apostle Paul is definitely speaking concerning those who are regenerate believers.  Even so, in relation to regenerate believers, the apostle speaks of the indwelling Holy Spirit as a separate entity from "our spirit," such that the indwelling Holy Spirit bears witness WITH "our spirit."

Yet this does raise another question -- If the nature of the unregenerate spirit in lost sinner is as I have presented above, what is the nature of the regenerate spirit in a saved believer?  (Yes, I have an answer; yet I would have you to consider the question before I give my answer.)

Bro. Scott, may I proffer this... 1 Cor. 15:1-6 . It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ which regenerates then, the Holy Spirit of Romans 8:16 bears record (as well as the other work attributed to the Holy Spirit.).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
8 minutes ago, 1Timothy115 said:

Bro. Scott, may I proffer this... 1 Cor. 15:1-6 . It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ which regenerates then, the Holy Spirit of Romans 8:16 bears record (as well as the other work attributed to the Holy Spirit.).

Brother "1Timothy115,"

May I request further clarification?  Were you presenting this in relation to my explanation concerning my first question above, or were you presenting this in relation to my closing question above?  In addition, were you seeking to separate "the Holy Spirit of Romans 8:16" from the regeneration process?  If so, in what manner or for what reason were you seeking to develop this separation?

Many responses came to mind when I read your statement; however, I do not wish to respond in a wrong "direction" due to a misunderstanding of your intent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Yes, I was speaking to your last comment. Having looked back at what I said, no, the comment was without thinking. The Holy Spirit was indeed very much involved in my regeneration and continuing teaching, reproof, and overall growth of my Christian walk. Yes, the Gospel must be heard and the Holy Spirit must work to convict and compel and indwell us. He is the regenerating, if I may... entity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Concerning the question that I asked earlier in the thread, allow me to adapt it a bit -- Do you believe that the Holy Spirit IS the regenerate spirit within a believer?

I do believe the Holy Spirit regenerates the spirit of man, how else could fellowship with God and Christ be re-established.   Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The washing of regeneration is the completeness of the rebirth indicating nothing is lacking in the rebirth, the whole of man is included and renewing of the Holy Spirit which was shed or poured out on us abundantly.  The whole context in my opinion is not just regeneration but in conjunction with the rebirth the restoration of the Holy Spirit within each saved person is resumed.  In essence the regeneration is not only the rebirth but the filling of the Holy Spirit. 

I hope we beat on this topic for a good while.  :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
22 hours ago, Orval said:

I do believe the Holy Spirit regenerates the spirit of man, how else could fellowship with God and Christ be re-established.   Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The washing of regeneration is the completeness of the rebirth indicating nothing is lacking in the rebirth, the whole of man is included and renewing of the Holy Spirit which was shed or poured out on us abundantly.  The whole context in my opinion is not just regeneration but in conjunction with the rebirth the restoration of the Holy Spirit within each saved person is resumed.  In essence the regeneration is not only the rebirth but the filling of the Holy Spirit. 

I hope we beat on this topic for a good while.  :)

Brother Orval,

I would agree that the Holy Spirit is involved in regenerating the spirit of the lost sinner.  In fact, I might provide the following outline:

1.  God the Father is the Provider of regeneration, through His love, grace, and mercy - as per Ephesians 2:4-5; Titus 3:4-6; & 1 Peter 1:3.
2.  God the Son is the Source of regeneration, through our union with His death, burial, and resurrection - as per John 1:12-13; Romans 6:3-11; Ephesians 2:5-6; Titus 3:6; & 1 Peter 1:3.
3.  God the Holy Spirit is the Power of regeneration, through His internal birthing work within us - as per John 3:5-8 & Titus 3:5.
4.  God's Holy Word is the Seed of regeneration, engrafted (rooted) in our hearts by the birthing work of the Holy Spirit - as per 1 Peter 1:23-25.

However, this was not precisely my question.  Rather, I am seeking to know if you view the regenerate spirit of the believer as a separate entity from the indwelling Holy Spirit (although the Holy Spirit certainly birthed it in the believer and now dwells continually with and in the regenerate spirit)?

__________________________________________

I also wish to challenge two of your comments in your above posting:

1.  "The washing of regeneration is the completeness of the rebirth indicating nothing is lacking in the rebirth, the whole of man is included and renewing of the Holy Spirit which was shed or poured out on us abundantly."

So then, do you believe that at the moment of regeneration a believer receives a brand new (regenerated) spirit, soul, and body?

2.  "The whole context in my opinion is not just regeneration but in conjunction with the rebirth the restoration of the Holy Spirit within each saved person is resumed." 

So then, do you believe (as you seemed to indicate in your opening post) that original man (Adam and Eve) possessed the continual indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

In addition, I would ask another question:

Do you believe that Old Testament believers experience God's work of regeneration upon their spirit?  (Note: I recognize that this is a controversial question among Independent Baptists, and that many among Independent Baptists would answer "no."  I myself strongly believe that they did, and I know that this reveals that I am not very good at following the "party line.")

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...