Did the Holy Spirit leave

[Orval]

At what point in the Genesis account of the fall did the Spirit of God leave man?  At what point were Adam and Eve left to embrace the decisions making process of the soul without the Holy Spirit.

I realize both questions are essentially the same.  This is a very important question to me as it deals with the dichotomy and the trichotomy of man.

I have left out what I believe at this point because I don’t want my own post to be derailed by questions that may lead the post astray.

Thanks for your time and wisdom. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Orval

[Ukulelemike]

I have never thought about this, so I am answering on the fly, so I may be incorreect, but I don't know that they HAD the holy Ghost, per se, not as believers do today. I believe that, in a sense, they were covered by God's glory, being created not perfect or 'saved', but in perfect innocence. I think when Adam sinned, (not Eve), that this glory left them, and this explains why they suddenly saw their nakedness.

The Lord told Adam that the day he ate of the fruit of the TOTKOGAE, he would die. That day. I believe they did, when Adam ate and willingly disobeyed God.

I think he became a Calvinist that day, too.  

[Orval]

lol to your last statement.

[1611mac]

I guess you could ask:

- Will we still have the indwelling Holy Spirit when we are Glorified, like Him,  and with Him in heaven.  
- Will the saved on earth who are taken into (perfect) eternity have the indwelling Holy Spirit? If not, at what point does he depart?

[Ukulelemike]

2 hours ago, 1611mac said:

I guess you could ask:

- Will we still have the indwelling Holy Spirit when we are Glorified, like Him,  and with Him in heaven.  
- Will the saved on earth who are taken into (perfect) eternity have the indwelling Holy Spirit? If not, at what point does he depart?

Them's some good questions.

This is why I like this board-Yes we argue some points sometimes, but occasionally, we get some very thought-provoking questions. I'd have never thought to even ask these questions.

[Orval]

17 hours ago, Orval said:

At what point in the Genesis account of the fall did the Spirit of God leave man?  At what point were Adam and Eve left to embrace the decisions making process of the soul without the Holy Spirit.

I realize both questions are essentially the same.  This is a very important question to me as it deals with the dichotomy and the trichotomy of man.

I have left out what I believe at this point because I don’t want my own post to be derailed by questions that may lead the post astray.

Thanks for your time and wisdom. 

Ok, I suppose I will need to state my position if I want to get the feedback I am looking for.

My belief is that man was created a trichotomy body, soul and Spirit but also that the soul itself is a trichotomy of emotion, logic and Spirit. 

When man fell because of sin, one of the many loses that was suffered was the departure of the Holy Spirit, thus leaving him a dichotomy body and soul but also a dichotomy of soul i.e. his decision-making ability was reduced to the use of emotion and logic. 

Many books have been written on the necessity of both emotion and logic in making decisions.  One of the better books I have read on the subject is, How We Decide, by Jonah Lehrer written in 2009.  Mr. Lehrer points out that man cannot decide without the use of both emotion and logic, and that strictly speaking Spock could only exist in science fiction for in real life he would never be able to decide because he would never come to an end of the possible pros and cons of a given topic.

When the word of God states we are fearfully and wonderfully made, we must conclude the statement is not meant to be simply expressing the physical aspect of the human creation but every aspect of the human being both known and unknown. 

A passage of scripture that I use in teaching the above hypothesis are the words of Paul found in Galatians 5:16,17. 

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The decision to do fleshly things is based on the operation of the soul, in that “it feels good” or “this is the best way to reach my objective” the summation being emotion or logic is the process by which one follows the desires of the flesh.  In these verses and others the difference between walking in the flesh and walking in the Spirit is that the spirit is now part of the decision making process thereby giving the believer a third option in the soul.  “so that ye cannot do the things ye would” here is expressed as a battle in the decision making process that takes place in the soul of a saved man.  This is a picture of the Trichotomy Soul at work. 

Perhaps I am the only person who thinks like this, but in my mind this is a clear concept of decision making.  Before salvation man emotion and logic are what he uses to decide the issues of life.  Those decisions are carried out by the will (the driving force) but once a man is saved the Holy Spirit enters the battle ground of the soul and the decision-making process now includes the input of God’s absolutes which are used to refute the desires of the flesh in deciding. 

The traditional understanding of man is that he is body and soul but at salvation he becomes body, soul and Spirit.

Within the soul decisions are made via emotion and logic prior to salvation.  At salvation, the soul now makes decisions based on emotion, logic and Spirit.  Essentially, we could say the Spirit completes a man.

I am very much interested in the thoughts of others on this topic?  Iron sharpeneth iron and in this case I need to be challenged.

Coming back to my post is the question did the Spirit of God leave Adam and Eve when they decided to sin or after they sinned?  I am leaning to after they sinned.  Because their eyes were opened and they knew they were naked.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Orval
removed video link

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Orval said:

Ok, I suppose I will need to state my position if I want to get the feedback I am looking for.

Brother Orval,

You and I would have a whole number of premise differences in our doctrinal position on this matter (which is as I thought might be the case).  Thus my answer to the question(s) of your original post would be based upon a completely different set of premises and a different doctrinal position.

[Orval]

4 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Orval,

You and I would have a whole number of premise differences in our doctrinal position on this matter (which is as I thought might be the case).  Thus my answer to the question(s) of your original post would be based upon a completely different set of premises and a different doctrinal position.

I look forward to your response Scott.  I truly want to be challenged on my view.  If the view is solid I should be able to defend it and if it needs to be tweaked so be it.  I promise I will consider all that is written in response.

[wretched]

2 hours ago, Orval said:

Coming back to my post is the question did the Spirit of God leave Adam and Eve when they decided to sin or after they sinned?  I am leaning to after they sinned.  Because their eyes were opened and they knew they were naked.

I wonder if the Spiritual third of Adam and Eve were not original from God in their creation. Vice, the substitutionary indwelling we receive when born again from God the HS Himself who quickens and seals us until the day of redemption. Which indicates to me that something else occurs after the day of redemption. Perhaps the Spiritual third independent of the HS is once again reinstated with our glorified bodies.

Nevertheless, interesting topic. 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

47 minutes ago, Orval said:

I look forward to your response Scott.  I truly want to be challenged on my view.  If the view is solid I should be able to defend it and if it needs to be tweaked so be it.  I promise I will consider all that is written in response.

Brother Orval,

One of the premises that you appear to be holding is that God the Holy Spirit IS Himself THE spirit in a human individual (when that human individual actually possesses a spirit)?  Am I correct in my understanding concerning your position?

Edited April 6, 2017 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Orval]

44 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Orval,

One of the premises that you appear to be holding is that God the Holy Spirit IS Himself THE spirit in a human individual (when that human individual actually possesses a spirit)?  Am I correct in my understanding concerning your position?

An interesting question Scott, as I had not considered fully that aspect.  While I do believe that the human spirit is dead or gone in unregenerate man, and that without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit the human spirit cannot live, be resurrected or return.

I have not contemplated my view much beyond this.  The human spirit is dead apart from the life of the indwelling Holy Spirit of regenerated man.  So why I do not believe the human spirit is indwelt by the Holy Spirit I do believe that the human spirit needs the Holy Spirit to operate correctly in man’s decision making process.   

This is exactly why I am asking to be challenged in this subject.  Thank you for the question. 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

29 minutes ago, Orval said:

An interesting question Scott, as I had not considered fully that aspect.  While I do believe that the human spirit is dead or gone in unregenerate man, and that without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit the human spirit cannot live, be resurrected or return.

I have not contemplated my view much beyond this.  The human spirit is dead apart from the life of the indwelling Holy Spirit of regenerated man.  So why I do not believe the human spirit is indwelt by the Holy Spirit I do believe that the human spirit needs the Holy Spirit to operate correctly in man’s decision making process.   

This is exactly why I am asking to be challenged in this subject.  Thank you for the question. 

Brother Orval,

Your answer above now leaves me with another "premise" question about your position (for the sake of understanding) --

You and I would both agree that a lost sinner is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.  It also appears that we would both agree that this spiritual deadness has its primary affect upon the spirit of the lost sinner.  Do you believe (for appear possibly to believe) that spiritual deadness means that a lost sinner does not possesses any spirit at all, that is -- that spiritual deadness means the complete non-existence of a spirit?  (You appear to be holding this view when you indicate that a lost sinner is a dichotomy, having only body and soul, but that a regenerated believer is a trichotomy, having body, soul, AND spirit.)

[Orval]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Orval,

Your answer above now leaves me with another "premise" question about your position (for the sake of understanding) --

You and I would both agree that a lost sinner is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins.  It also appears that we would both agree that this spiritual deadness has its primary affect upon the spirit of the lost sinner.  Do you believe (for appear possibly to believe) that spiritual deadness means that a lost sinner does not possesses any spirit at all, that is -- that spiritual deadness means the complete non-existence of a spirit?  (You appear to be holding this view when you indicate that a lost sinner is a dichotomy, having only body and soul, but that a regenerated believer is a trichotomy, having body, soul, AND spirit.)

That is correct sir.  As my understanding stands currently.  I  realize that puts me in a questionable position in that at death the spirit goes to be with the Lord.  Ecc. 12:7 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Orval said:

That is correct sir.  As my understanding stands currently.  I  realize that puts me in a questionable position in that at death the spirit goes to be with the Lord.  Ecc. 12:7 

Well then, that is the premise of disagreement with which we should begin.  Although I do NOT have a thorough presentation to give at this moment, I will provide my present position for your consideration --

1.  I definitely believe that a lost sinner is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, and I believe that this applies to the lost sinner's SPIRIT.

2.  However, I do NOT believe that this spiritual deadness means that the lost sinner's spirit is non-existent.  Rather, I believe that this spiritual deadness means that the lost sinner's spirit is "alienated [separated] from the life of God" (see Ephesians 4:18), that is -- is completely separated from any ability to experience fellowship with God.

As further foundational information concerning my position --

1.  I believe that a human individual is a trichotomy (whether lost or saved), being body, soul, and spirit, wherein the soul is the essence of the individual, wherein the body is the means by which the soul may interact with the physical world, and wherein the spirit is the means by which the soul may experience a fellowship-relationship with God.

2.  I believe that both the body and soul of the human individual contains multiple members, wherein the body encompasses such physical members as eyes, nose, hands, feet, bones, organs, etc., and wherein the soul encompasses such "soulish" members as the heart (the seat of motivation), the conscience (the seat of judgment), the mind (the seat of intellect), the emotion (the seat of attitude), the will (the seat of decision), and the "flesh" (the principle of selfishness).

[DaveW]

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Orval,

One of the premises that you appear to be holding is that God the Holy Spirit IS Himself THE spirit in a human individual (when that human individual actually possesses a spirit)?  Am I correct in my understanding concerning your position?

I also had this impression of Orval's position, and so I was reluctant to answer until more info was available.

I had always considered man to have a spiritual aspect, independent of the Holy Spirit.

In reading the OT we see men who were "spiritual" but the Holy Spirit came and left them. The most prominent in my mind is Samson.

The promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit was given by Jesus. I am not certain that it was so prior to that promise.