Did the Holy Spirit leave

[Orval]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 7:39 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Orval,

I would agree that the Holy Spirit is involved in regenerating the spirit of the lost sinner.  In fact, I might provide the following outline:

1.  God the Father is the Provider of regeneration, through His love, grace, and mercy - as per Ephesians 2:4-5; Titus 3:4-6; & 1 Peter 1:3.
2.  God the Son is the Source of regeneration, through our union with His death, burial, and resurrection - as per John 1:12-13; Romans 6:3-11; Ephesians 2:5-6; Titus 3:6; & 1 Peter 1:3.
3.  God the Holy Spirit is the Power of regeneration, through His internal birthing work within us - as per John 3:5-8 & Titus 3:5.
4.  God's Holy Word is the Seed of regeneration, engrafted (rooted) in our hearts by the birthing work of the Holy Spirit - as per 1 Peter 1:23-25.

However, this was not precisely my question.  Rather, I am seeking to know if you view the regenerate spirit of the believer as a separate entity from the indwelling Holy Spirit (although the Holy Spirit certainly birthed it in the believer and now dwells continually with and in the regenerate spirit)?

__________________________________________

I also wish to challenge two of your comments in your above posting:

1.  "The washing of regeneration is the completeness of the rebirth indicating nothing is lacking in the rebirth, the whole of man is included and renewing of the Holy Spirit which was shed or poured out on us abundantly."

So then, do you believe that at the moment of regeneration a believer receives a brand new (regenerated) spirit, soul, and body?

2.  "The whole context in my opinion is not just regeneration but in conjunction with the rebirth the restoration of the Holy Spirit within each saved person is resumed." 

So then, do you believe (as you seemed to indicate in your opening post) that original man (Adam and Eve) possessed the continual indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

In addition, I would ask another question:

Do you believe that Old Testament believers experience God's work of regeneration upon their spirit?  (Note: I recognize that this is a controversial question among Independent Baptists, and that many among Independent Baptists would answer "no."  I myself strongly believe that they did, and I know that this reveals that I am not very good at following the "party line.")

It has been a few weeks Brother Scott and I have had several things on my mind as well as my to do list. 

 

This topic is very important to me and so I want to take a few minutes this afternoon and address your last post.

You asked first, if I thought the rebirth included spirit, soul and body and the answer to that question is no.  The soul (IMO) is continually conforming after salvation and the body will not be reborn as it were until we arrive in heaven. (1 Cor. 15) But our spirit I believe is indwelt and resurrected (as it were) at the moment of salvation.  So yes, I do believe that Adam and Eve had the continual indwelling Spirit of God in them.  

There are no verses to my knowledge that speak specifically to Adam and Eve being indwelt by the Holy Spirit.  Nonetheless it is reasonable to me to believe they were for the following reasons. 

If Christ is referred to as the second Adam and we would agree (I think) that Christ was indwelt by the Holy Spirit (he breathed on them and said, receive ye the Holy Ghost) then it also makes sense that the first Adam had the Holy Spirit as well.

Secondly if fellowship was broken with God as part of the dying of Genesis and fellowship is reinstated as part of our salvation and indwelling of the Holy Spirit then it would make sense that Adam and Eve lost the indwelling Holy Spirit and the ability to fellowship with God at the fall. 

The difficulty in this view for me is that I cannot prove these things where of I speak. 

 

You also asked if I believed Old Testament peoples were indwelt by the Holy Ghost?  To that I have to say I believe the Holy Spirit came upon them or indwelt if you choose, but only for the accomplishment of tasks that were beyond their natural human skills.  Once what needed to be accomplished was accomplished I believe the Holy Spirit removed himself from their lives. 

Since I have spent very little time studying this topic I must claim ignorance and a willingness to be taught. 

Once again, the primary importance of my original post is to understand the workings between the spirit of man, the Holy Spirit and the soul of man.  Can the spirit of man apart from the Holy Spirit influence the soul of man to do, right?  Or can right only be the product of the Holy Spirit’s influence on the human

[Orval]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 7:39 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Orval,

I would agree that the Holy Spirit is involved in regenerating the spirit of the lost sinner.  In fact, I might provide the following outline:

1.  God the Father is the Provider of regeneration, through His love, grace, and mercy - as per Ephesians 2:4-5; Titus 3:4-6; & 1 Peter 1:3.
2.  God the Son is the Source of regeneration, through our union with His death, burial, and resurrection - as per John 1:12-13; Romans 6:3-11; Ephesians 2:5-6; Titus 3:6; & 1 Peter 1:3.
3.  God the Holy Spirit is the Power of regeneration, through His internal birthing work within us - as per John 3:5-8 & Titus 3:5.
4.  God's Holy Word is the Seed of regeneration, engrafted (rooted) in our hearts by the birthing work of the Holy Spirit - as per 1 Peter 1:23-25.

However, this was not precisely my question.  Rather, I am seeking to know if you view the regenerate spirit of the believer as a separate entity from the indwelling Holy Spirit (although the Holy Spirit certainly birthed it in the believer and now dwells continually with and in the regenerate spirit)?

__________________________________________

I also wish to challenge two of your comments in your above posting:

1.  "The washing of regeneration is the completeness of the rebirth indicating nothing is lacking in the rebirth, the whole of man is included and renewing of the Holy Spirit which was shed or poured out on us abundantly."

So then, do you believe that at the moment of regeneration a believer receives a brand new (regenerated) spirit, soul, and body?

2.  "The whole context in my opinion is not just regeneration but in conjunction with the rebirth the restoration of the Holy Spirit within each saved person is resumed." 

So then, do you believe (as you seemed to indicate in your opening post) that original man (Adam and Eve) possessed the continual indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

In addition, I would ask another question:

Do you believe that Old Testament believers experience God's work of regeneration upon their spirit?  (Note: I recognize that this is a controversial question among Independent Baptists, and that many among Independent Baptists would answer "no."  I myself strongly believe that they did, and I know that this reveals that I am not very good at following the "party line.")

Brother Scott,

Let’s look at death for a few minutes in relation to the question did the Holy Spirit indwell Adam and Eve.  Many if not most consider the word die found in Genesis 2:17 to mean that man will be separated from God immediately and will die physically in time.  Meaning that death is to be “separated from” something.  Spiritual death is to be separated from God and physical death is to be separated from physical life.

How is one separated from God ie die spiritually?  What is the separation from God?  Since God is omnipresent we cannot be separated from God in a true sense.  Psalm 139:8

Something happened specifically on the day of the fall that caused man to be separated from God.  If as you say man’s spirit is still intact then it seems logical that God’s influence on man’s spirit was separated at the fall.  This would indicate the likelihood that the Holy Spirit left man at that point and no longer indwelt man but simply came upon man for certain periods of time in order to give needed wisdom to fulfill God’s desires. 

We know that our iniquities have separated us from God, and sins could not be forgiven via the sacrificial system of the Old Testament.  Therefore, the Holy Spirit could never indwell the sinner whose sins were merely covered by the blood of bulls and goats. 

But Jesus Christ took away our sin by the shedding of His blood so that the Holy Spirit could return to man.  And he also defeated death insuring a reunion with God not just in spirit but in the flesh.  Both separations ie deaths, were done away with when Jesus lived, died and rose again. 

I very much believe that Adam and Eve were indwelt by the Holy Ghost at their creation and until they fell.     

 

 

 

[Ronda]

A very interesting scriptural topic! Rather than opine, I would like to just add some scripture into the mix which MAY have relevance.

1 Cor.15:45-47
45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven."

 

 

[wretched]

2 hours ago, Ronda said:

A very interesting scriptural topic! Rather than opine, I would like to just add some scripture into the mix which MAY have relevance.

1 Cor.15:45-47
45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven."

 

 

Now that is interesting....

[Orval]

3 hours ago, Ronda said:

A very interesting scriptural topic! Rather than opine, I would like to just add some scripture into the mix which MAY have relevance.

1 Cor.15:45-47
45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven."

 

 

Good scripture quote Ronda, I will need to dwell on it for a bit.  thanks.