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Early church eternal security


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Okay, so I've seen some people say that I don't believe the Bible is all true. That is 100% incorrect. I do absolutely believe everything it says. The confusion that i was having, was what was the Bible actually saying. I was reading about the verb tenses in the greek which I DIDNT know were not from Textus receptus manuscripts. I understand this, now. Also i know people who don't beleive osas, and they showed me a bunch of verses that they say "prove" that it's incorrect. I was just trying to get clarification. I have no idea why I'm being accused of not believing the Bible, i was just trying to figure out what i had been told and was studying, if I was understanding it, right. 

Edited by Roselove
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Simplest ppint to look at is what the Lord calls it - it is "eternal life" and "everlasting life" that God calls it. How can something be everlasting if it doesn't last forever?

How can something be eternal if it can end?

I know this is a simplistic argument, but that doesn't make it an irrelevant argument.

This "simple point" must be answered by those who oppose "eternal" eternal life.

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5 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Simplest ppint to look at is what the Lord calls it - it is "eternal life" and "everlasting life" that God calls it. How can something be everlasting if it doesn't last forever?

How can something be eternal if it can end?

I know this is a simplistic argument, but that doesn't make it an irrelevant argument.

This "simple point" must be answered by those who oppose "eternal" eternal life.

I get it. I know what the eternal means, what was confusing to me, though, was for instance, like in John 3:16, they were saying that in the Greek for believeth, was implying a continuance of beleiving, which they were trying to say meant that if you stopped believing, you would not inherit wternal life, after death. 

I'm much more open-minded to osas, now. I have been given information that makes sense to me. I was just needing some mentoring, on this matter. That's why i find it quite saddening, that people were accusing me of not believing the Bible, i felt like they were saying I was trying to be a heretic or something. I was just trying to get help.

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Another possibly over simplification is this: Whose salvation is it? The answer of course is that it the The Lord's salvation. It is not mine to lose once I have received it. Although "the Greek" can be helpful at times, once we start listening to what others say "the Greek" means, we are getting out of the plain meaning of Scripture. Here is one "for instance" that has no human addition to it:

 John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 
 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 
 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 
 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

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Roselove,

I apologize for allowing that thought to enter in. Sometimes thoughts are best kept to ourselves until more information is available. In other words I inserted my foot into my mouth. Keep seeking after God in Spirit and in Truth and the answers will come. If not now then, in the life to come. Psalms 69:6b

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1 hour ago, 1Timothy115 said:

Roselove,

I apologize for allowing that thought to enter in. Sometimes thoughts are best kept to ourselves until more information is available. In other words I inserted my foot into my mouth. Keep seeking after God in Spirit and in Truth and the answers will come. If not now then, in the life to come. Psalms 69:6b

I accept your apology, thank you for saying this

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I get it. I know what the eternal means, what was confusing to me, though, was for instance, like in John 3:16, they were saying that in the Greek for believeth, was implying a continuance of beleiving, which they were trying to say meant that if you stopped believing, you would not inherit wternal life, after death. 

That's a legitimate understanding of that verse.

I'm much more open-minded to osas, now. I have been given information that makes sense to me. I was just needing some mentoring, on this matter. That's why i find it quite saddening, that people were accusing me of not believing the Bible,

Welcome to O.B....

Not toeing the company line will often automatically get you branded a Christ-hater, sinner, non-believer, and heretic in the minds of some.

Don't let that discourage you...

Continue in the Word, listen to the arguments presented, and most importantly read the Scripture with prayer. 

i felt like they were saying I was trying to be a heretic or something.

That's because some posters were sayinig that.  

Welcome to Christianity where no one is perfect and some are odious, contentious, proud and unrelentingly intransigent. 

I was just trying to get help.

There are knowledgeable and good posters here who can help you and present reasoned arguments......

Scott Markle is definitely one of them.

He's wise, and knowledgeable.

He'll land on the OSAS side of the argument.  Good.  I'm not sure I'd agree with him..............................but, he's definitely worth hearing and considering.  He can patiently and lovingly expound what he knows of Scripture and present an argument well thought-out and reasoned.

Some are just going to call you a "heretic" because you don't agree on every minor point of Doctrine, or even preference. 

Welcome to the Family.  

Ignore those who are unhelpful and learn from those who are.

Edited by Heir of Salvation
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8 hours ago, DaveW said:

Simplest ppint to look at is what the Lord calls it - it is "eternal life" and "everlasting life" that God calls it. How can something be everlasting if it doesn't last forever?

How can something be eternal if it can end?

I know this is a simplistic argument, but that doesn't make it an irrelevant argument.

This "simple point" must be answered by those who oppose "eternal" eternal life.

It can be both "everlasting" but also conditional.

It can be "eternal" but receipt of it can be conditional.

No one "opposes" "eternal" life....

They oppose non-conditionality.

Even you don't believe eternal life is granted unconditionally.  You believe that faith in Christ is necessary for receiving that gift to begin with.  The difference is that you view it as a Once-only proposition.

Those who disagree would contend that those who do not continue in the faith will not receive life eternal....

"Eternality" is not even the issue........it's conditionality that is at issue.

The point of the opposing argument is that "eternal" life is granted upon certain conditions.

This "simple point" must be answered by those who oppose "eternal" eternal life.

They don't oppose "Eternal" life...

they oppose a one-time-walk forward during the fifteenth verse of "Just as I am"- then live like the Devil-and believe whatever you want-and discontinue in belief at all-and still be a recipient of Eternal Life- even if you fall away from belief and begin practicing Buddhism.........................kind of Conditionality.................

 

Every verse in the Bible assures BELIEVERS of Eternal Life....No verse assures the "I once believed but have abandoned the Faith".

That's the question....Whether those who genuinely once believed can fall away into disbelief:

 

Luke8:13
 
 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
 
Heb. 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

 Heb 6:5

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

 Heb 6:6

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

Edited by Heir of Salvation
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Perhaps I'm too simple-minded in my understanding, reading, and study...

If the Lord Jesus Christ said that no man can pluck us from his (or the Father's hand), then "no man" would include ourselves (John 10:25-30).

That, together with the fact that if someone "goes out from us", it is proof that "they were not of us". If someone leaves the faith, they were never truly in the faith (1 John 2:19).

 

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11 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Perhaps I'm too simple-minded in my understanding, reading, and study...

If the Lord Jesus Christ said that no man can pluck us from his (or the Father's hand), then "no man" would include ourselves (John 10:25-30).

That, together with the fact that if someone "goes out from us", it is proof that "they were not of us". If someone leaves the faith, they were never truly in the faith (1 John 2:19).

 

No one can "pluck" them from the father's hand....

But, who would describe an errant sheep who willingly "leaves" the fold and walks away as having been "plucked"????

You "pluck" an apple off of a tree.

If it's over-ripe, and falls to the ground (of it's own accord).  You do not describe it as having been "plucked".

No one can "pluck" Christ's sheep from the fold...........

That says nothing about whether a sheep can walk away.

And that action cannot reasonably be described as "having been 'plucked' ".

I don't think that verse proves your point....especially in context:

Consider the preceding verse:

Jhn 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

That is a CONDITION for being a sheep....his sheep "follow" him. (Or that is at least a faithful and fair way to understand the passage).

Conceivably, those who do NOT continue to follow him...are no longer classified as "sheep".

 Jhn 10:28

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

If OSAS is true (and it may very well be) this passage doesn't, I think, prove the point.

 

 

 

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47 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Nice double-talk, but if it can be lost it is not eternal in that instance, and cannot therefore be called eternal until the end.....

In ANY instance........

You seriously just accused me of "double-talk"????

Really?

Because I presented fair arguments....and even conceded numerous points in favour of the OSAS position?

Points I didn't HAVE to concede.

Such as explaining that while it's indeed true  (and it is) that the ancient Fathers don't seem to support an OSAS position....that that should not be of significant concern to Roselove and that the Scriptures themselves should be consulted........

Let's see....

Please see if you can explain in any real detail and without sounding preposterous how I engaged in "double-talk"...

You are acting like precisely what Roselove is complaining about........

Someone genuinely asking questions...and seeking to hear contrary arguments held up with Scripture...

And you just condemn and insult and falsely accuse and scream "heresy".

I may be mistaken.

OSAS may be true...

But I've not engaged in "double-talk".

I presented my argument as fairly and reasonably as possible with my KJV verses quoted:

You responded as you did because.....

Your arguments simply aren't as good as mine......so you defaulted to insult and false accusation.

And you know it.

By the way "double-speak"....is preferable to "double-talk"...if that's what you want to accuse me of...just sayin'

 

Edited by Heir of Salvation
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27 minutes ago, Heir of Salvation said:

No one can "pluck" them from the father's hand....

But, who would describe an errant sheep who willingly "leaves" the fold and walks away as having been "plucked"????

You "pluck" an apple off of a tree.

If it's over-ripe, and falls to the ground (of it's own accord).  You do not describe it as having been "plucked".

No one can "pluck" Christ's sheep from the fold...........

That says nothing about whether a sheep can walk away.

And that action cannot reasonably be described as "having been 'plucked' ".

I don't think that verse proves your point....especially in context:

Consider the preceding verse:

Jhn 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

That is a CONDITION for being a sheep....his sheep "follow" him. (Or that is at least a faithful and fair way to understand the passage).

Conceivably, those who do NOT continue to follow him...are no longer classified as "sheep".

 Jhn 10:28

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

If OSAS is true (and it may very well be) this passage doesn't, I think, prove the point.

 

 

 

Hence my inclusion of the verses from 1 John.

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12 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Hence my inclusion of the verses from 1 John.

Maybe...

But preface it with vs. 17 only two verses earlier.................

and it could take on a whole new meaning:

1Jo 2:17

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

That could help to preface vs. 19............since it provides context.

It creates a condition....for who Christ's sheep are...

and mind you John is warning us about heretics who deny Christ...they, I would argue are those who are spoken of.  Genuine "anti-Christs" who deny Christ has come in the flesh.

 

 

 

Edited by Heir of Salvation
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1 minute ago, Heir of Salvation said:

Maybe...

But preface it with vs. 17 only two verses earlier.................

and it could take on a whole new meaning:

1Jo 2:17

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

That could help to preface vs. 19............since it provides context.

 

 

 

I think that I agree to an extent (verse 18 appears to start a new line of thought); however, if 18 doesn't start a new line of thought, verse 17 lends even more credence and cements the fact...

No one (including ourselves) can pluck us from his hand. Yet, if one willingly walks away, they certainly weren't "plucked", yet 1 John is clear that if one walks away, they weren't truly saved...in my understanding.

As to verse 17...what is the will of God? I'm not asking you to answer...just giving food for thought. :)

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