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Early church eternal security


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16 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I think that I agree to an extent (verse 18 appears to start a new line of thought); however, if 18 doesn't start a new line of thought, verse 17 lends even more credence and cements the fact...

No one (including ourselves) can pluck us from his hand. Yet, if one willingly walks away, they certainly weren't "plucked", yet 1 John is clear that if one walks away, they weren't truly saved...in my understanding.

As to verse 17...what is the will of God? I'm not asking you to answer...just giving food for thought. :)

I don't think your assessment is very far off...

I said before that I am "skeptical" about OSAS, not that I'm dyed-in-the-wool against it.

I'm being treated by some as though I am....but that's another matter.

John provides us the answer though, I think in vs. 22 and I think my initial assessment is correct:

He identifies those "anti-Christs" those who (were not of us)...in vs. 22

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

I am not yet convinced that those who can walk away are those who were never truly believers....

That argument is dangerously close to a "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I don't think all OSAS believers who use that verse are guilty of it, because they believe in an a-priori impossibility of falling away (such as yourself I would guess).

But, I think the context is, frankly....the entire book, not just a few preceding verses...and those spoken of who are "anti-Christ"...who never were "of us"...are, and always were, genuine non-believers....wolves in sheep's clothing...not those who may have genuinely believed and have abandoned the faith.

The non-OSAS position (the only reasonable one) provides that a person who may have GENUINELY believed at some point can walk away....I think John is indeed speaking of those who CLEARLY never did...

And he's warning us against wolves who never believed...

Frankly, I believe he's warning against Docetism which already infected the faith by then.

See I John 4:2

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

I think that's a better way to understand the passage.

Thank you for your insight :)

 

Edited by Heir of Salvation
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2 minutes ago, Heir of Salvation said:

I don't think your assessment is very far off...

I said before that I am "skeptical" about OSAS, not that I'm dyed-in-the-wool against it.

I'm being treated by some as though I am....but that's another matter.

John provides us the answer though, I think in vs. 22 and I think my initial assessment is correct:

He identifies those "anti-Christs" those who (were not of us)...in vs. 22

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

I am not yet convinced that those who can walk away are those who were never truly believers....

That argument is dangerously close to a "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

I don't think all OSAS believers who use that verse are guilty of it, because they believe in an a-priori impossibility of falling away (such as yourself I would guess).

But, I think the context is, frankly....the entire book, not just a few preceding verses...and those spoken of who are "anti-Christ"...who never were "of us"...are, and always were, genuine non-believers....wolves in sheep's clothing...not those who may have genuinely believed and have abandoned the faith.

I think that's a better way to understand the passage.

Thank you for your insight :)

 

I agree with your "whole book" reference. Thank you for the kind exchange. I need to attend to other things...plus I despise pecking out one letter at a time on my phone...

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26 minutes ago, Roselove said:

I think Heir of Salvation made some interesting points. I would be interested in seeing what someone thinks about what he was saying. It made sense, to me. 

 

 

On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 11:45 AM, Roselove said:

I get it. I know what the eternal means, what was confusing to me, though, was for instance, like in John 3:16, they were saying that in the Greek for believeth, was implying a continuance of beleiving, which they were trying to say meant that if you stopped believing, you would not inherit wternal life, after death. 

I'm much more open-minded to osas, now. I have been given information that makes sense to me. I was just needing some mentoring, on this matter. That's why i find it quite saddening, that people were accusing me of not believing the Bible, i felt like they were saying I was trying to be a heretic or something. I was just trying to get help.

Roselove, I know it may be after the fact but, you did look at Strongs Concordance as a source for defining the "believeth" in John 3:16? I don't know Greek so I have to use my Strong's. Just didn't want to leave a stone unturned.

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23 hours ago, Heir of Salvation said:

I am not yet convinced that those who can walk away are those who were never truly believers....

 

But please consider the following:

Eph.1:13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph.4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

There are numerous other passages like this. It is regeneration (born again) of the Spirit that indwells and that seals us until Heaven my friend.

Backsliding is impossible for born again believers and this is why the word backsliding in any form does not appear in the NT. In the OT, backsliding never meant sins of the flesh and mind. Backsliding in the OT always meant turning of the heart from God to some other false god. It was the definition of adultery, a turning of the heart.

NT Chrisitans can certainly fall back into sin but they never forget they are saved and who God is. Here is a contrast in experience that I have seen over many years:

I know men and women and whole families that fall back into sin and out of church. Some many years but it simply destroys the life they had here on earth and they are miserable. Those either come back to the Lord at some point because they cannot stand the chastisement or they die from it.

I have known others who do the same thing but don't come back to the Lord and when I do hear of them they were doing fine.

According to:

Heb.12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth:

Heb.12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Who do you think between the two types truly believed?

Just food for thought

 

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1 hour ago, 1Timothy115 said:

 

Roselove, I know it may be after the fact but, you did look at Strongs Concordance as a source for defining the "believeth" in John 3:16? I don't know Greek so I have to use my Strong's. Just didn't want to leave a stone unturned.

I have never used that before, is that something that you can use online?

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7 minutes ago, Roselove said:

I have never used that before, is that something that you can use online?

Okay, i found a page on Bible Hub about it. It's a little confusing to understand. But I'm able to get a litte out of it, that i get. 

A lot of it is just in Greek, which makes it more confusing. Do you know of like a beginners website or something? Sorry, since I'm new to this, Idk how it works.

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6 minutes ago, Roselove said:

Okay, i found a page on Bible Hub about it. It's a little confusing to understand. But I'm able to get a litte out of it, that i get. 

A lot of it is just in Greek, which makes it more confusing. Do you know of like a beginners website or something? Sorry, since I'm new to this, Idk how it works.

I'm not a fan of Bible Hub, but it seems to be the easiest to use.

  1. Go to the link below.
  2. Click a book of the Bible that you want to read.
  3. Hover your mouse pointer over a word(s) to see the Strong's definition (not really sure if it's Strong's or not...sorry).

http://biblehub.com/kjvs/

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9 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I'm not a fan of Bible Hub, but it seems to be the easiest to use.

  1. Go to the link below.
  2. Click a book of the Bible that you want to read.
  3. Hover your mouse pointer over a word(s) to see the Strong's definition (not really sure if it's Strong's or not...sorry).

http://biblehub.com/kjvs/

Thanks! I looked it up, it was helpful! 

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19 hours ago, Roselove said:

Thanks! I looked it up, it was helpful! 

Sometimes I just assume everyone has the same information I do. I really am sorry I didn't mention the Strong's earlier. I have to use it for Old Testament Hebrew and New Testament Greek definitions. Now, good hunting.

NN, thanks for helping Roselove get the feel for it.

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On 3/19/2017 at 6:13 AM, 1611mac said:

Something simple to think about....  If something is known to be true and it is accepted fact then it usually doesn't get written about (and thus there is no "controversy" untill later when some apostate starts pushing false doctrine.   So silence on ANY subject MAY simply mean that it was generally accepted as truth.

I think this line of reasoning also applies to gifts  of the Holy Spirit. I imagine the early churches accepted faith hope and love as remaining gifts without needing to declare for a long time.  Then with Pentecostalism and Charismatic influence later you see the reasoning of the cessation of spiritual gifts aside from faith hope and love being written about.

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For Roselove,

Here is an inexpensive bible program that I have been using for many years   It is reasonable in price, is updated every couple of years and I have met the author of the program.  If you have a question and email him he will personally respond to the email which is incredible in this day and age.

You can down load it free of charge for thirty days.  http://www.swordsearcher.com/

 

Edited by Orval
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On April 6, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Orval said:

For Roselove,

Here is an inexpensive bible program that I have been using for many years   It is reasonable in price, is updated every couple of years and I have met the author of the program.  If you have a question and email him he will personally respond to the email which is incredible in this day and age.

You can down load it free of charge for thirty days.  http://www.swordsearcher.com/

 

Thank you, i will do that! I appreciate it! 

Sorry for the late response, I haven't been on, in a week or so!

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