Members swathdiver Posted April 3, 2017 Members Share Posted April 3, 2017 On 3/13/2017 at 5:19 PM, Ukulelemike said: despite their hatred toward the Catholics, they do business almost exactly as the Catholics do: the message is prepared and sent to ALL halls, for use that same Sunday, as well as the reading. Jesuits helped to write their bible. Poor saps, all that work to get into heaven with only 144,000 openings... That's what they taught in the late 1980s, not sure what manure they are pushing now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaveW Posted April 3, 2017 Members Share Posted April 3, 2017 Basically: 144000 = super special place in heaven grade 1. Regular faithful JW = spot in regular grade heaven. And here's the interesting bit: Sincere religious folk who are not JW's = grade three heaven, which I think is actually "new earth". The rest just stop being anything or anywhere - no hell, no other judgrment. When I was told that I said "If you are right, I still get there because I have a sincere faith; but if am right, you spend eternity in Hell. Why would I change for that?" That is a good path to take - tell them that you are a faithful Christian and ask them what happens to people like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potatochip Posted April 3, 2017 Author Members Share Posted April 3, 2017 7 hours ago, DaveW said: Basically: 144000 = super special place in heaven grade 1. Regular faithful JW = spot in regular grade heaven. And here's the interesting bit: Sincere religious folk who are not JW's = grade three heaven, which I think is actually "new earth". The rest just stop being anything or anywhere - no hell, no other judgrment. When I was told that I said "If you are right, I still get there because I have a sincere faith; but if am right, you spend eternity in Hell. Why would I change for that?" That is a good path to take - tell them that you are a faithful Christian and ask them what happens to people like you. I didn't know they had 3 grades of heaven. That second one is a new one on me. The gospel saves in my opinion. I guess you can contend the facts. I like it when preacher gets on TV say in a secular interview and slips bible verses about salvation into the conversation. Debating is interesting but tiring to me in many ways its goes round and round with this misnomer and that one until the words of the gospel are added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ukulelemike Posted April 3, 2017 Moderators Share Posted April 3, 2017 I was under the impression that ONLY the 144,000 go to Heaven, or even ever see the face of God. All other good JW's will be resurrected into the new (renovated) earth and will dwell there forever. They don't believe in an actual NEW heaven and NEW earth, just that earth will be made back like Eden. Those who die lost will be resurrected for their judgment, then cast into the lake of fire to be quickly burned up and blink from existence. This is what I've gotten from local JW's. The doctrine seems to change often. I guess, like the Mormons, they have a 'progressive revelation'. Disciple.Luke and swathdiver 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jim_Alaska Posted April 3, 2017 Administrators Share Posted April 3, 2017 33 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said: I was under the impression that ONLY the 144,000 go to Heaven, or even ever see the face of God. All other good JW's will be resurrected into the new (renovated) earth and will dwell there forever. They don't believe in an actual NEW heaven and NEW earth, just that earth will be made back like Eden. Those who die lost will be resurrected for their judgment, then cast into the lake of fire to be quickly burned up and blink from existence. This is what I've gotten from local JW's. The doctrine seems to change often. I guess, like the Mormons, they have a 'progressive revelation'. This is true to the extreme, Mike. They are adamant that only 144,000 go to heaven, all other JW's get to spend eternity on what they call "Paradise Earth." This imaginary 144,000 are so special that only they get to actually partake of what we call the Lord's Supper, which they call "The Memorial." At their memorial service no one gets to actually partake of the wine and bread. They pass it out and you are supposed to just pass it to the person next to you. This si supposedly because no one can possibly know who is of the 144,000, and they don't want to leave out the possibility that one of the 144,000 might actually be in their congregation and therefore worthy to partake of the bread and wine. They get a tremendous amount of mileage out of the 144,000 that is nowhere to be found in Scripture. Disciple.Luke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ukulelemike Posted April 3, 2017 Moderators Share Posted April 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said: This is true to the extreme, Mike. They are adamant that only 144,000 go to heaven, all other JW's get to spend eternity on what they call "Paradise Earth." This imaginary 144,000 are so special that only they get to actually partake of what we call the Lord's Supper, which they call "The Memorial." At their memorial service no one gets to actually partake of the wine and bread. They pass it out and you are supposed to just pass it to the person next to you. This si supposedly because no one can possibly know who is of the 144,000, and they don't want to leave out the possibility that one of the 144,000 might actually be in their congregation and therefore worthy to partake of the bread and wine. They get a tremendous amount of mileage out of the 144,000 that is nowhere to be found in Scripture. I've thought about going to one of their memorials and partaking, with a knowing smile. Seriously, how could they know otherwise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ukulelemike Posted May 2, 2017 Moderators Share Posted May 2, 2017 Not sure why they would think the new heaven and earth are just the same heaven and earth, but 'fixed'. Don't they know that this earth, and all creation, has been permanently defiled by sin? They MUST be made anew. Even Heaven itself was tainted when Lucifer fell and took some of the angels with him-so there needs to be a passing of the old and a making of a new. This is the same reason there was no pre-Adamic earth with a gap: because the taint of sin would have been upon that priginal earth, and no 'washing' of it could make a difference. Only by starting with a newly-created heaven and earth could God, at the completion, look at it all and declare it all very good: it would still have been tainted with sin, filled with the bones of the dead, not 'good' at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jim_Alaska Posted May 2, 2017 Administrators Share Posted May 2, 2017 On 4/3/2017 at 9:29 AM, Ukulelemike said: I've thought about going to one of their memorials and partaking, with a knowing smile. Seriously, how could they know otherwise? They would know because you are not a JW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invicta Posted May 2, 2017 Members Share Posted May 2, 2017 On 03/04/2017 at 7:29 AM, DaveW said: Basically: 144000 = super special place in heaven grade 1. Regular faithful JW = spot in regular grade heaven. And here's the interesting bit: Sincere religious folk who are not JW's = grade three heaven, which I think is actually "new earth". The rest just stop being anything or anywhere - no hell, no other judgrment. When I was told that I said "If you are right, I still get there because I have a sincere faith; but if am right, you spend eternity in Hell. Why would I change for that?" That is a good path to take - tell them that you are a faithful Christian and ask them what happens to people like you. JWs don't beleive in Hell they say it should read Hades and that is just the grave, which, they say, is what the ancient Greeks believed. which of course the ancient Greeks did not believe. I had quite a long discussion on that with some a few years ago. More recently, the week before last in fact, I had a knock on the door and there were two young women who wanted to discuss the bible with me. They did not offer any literature which was a first but one had the JW bible on a Samsung tablet. I said I would get my bible and they said which bible was it? and I sad it was the King James. I can't remember all the conversation as it was rather long, but I asked if they were saved. They said "We can't be sure". I answered that the bible says we can, and the younger one with the tablet quoted John 3:16. I think she implied that you only have eternal life while you believed, but I said, If it is eternal or everlasting, It cannot be everlasting if you can lose it. At some time during the converstion, the postie delivered a bundle of Evangelical Times for our churh, and I asked them if they would accept a copy and they said no. I said you expect me to read your publications but you won't read mine. They said "WE are firm in our beliefs." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Disciple.Luke Posted May 5, 2017 Members Share Posted May 5, 2017 On 5/2/2017 at 7:41 PM, Invicta said: JWs don't beleive in Hell they say it should read Hades and that is just the grave, which, they say, is what the ancient Greeks believed. which of course the ancient Greeks did not believe. I had quite a long discussion on that with some a few years ago. More recently, the week before last in fact, I had a knock on the door and there were two young women who wanted to discuss the bible with me. They did not offer any literature which was a first but one had the JW bible on a Samsung tablet. I said I would get my bible and they said which bible was it? and I sad it was the King James. I can't remember all the conversation as it was rather long, but I asked if they were saved. They said "We can't be sure". I answered that the bible says we can, and the younger one with the tablet quoted John 3:16. I think she implied that you only have eternal life while you believed, but I said, If it is eternal or everlasting, It cannot be everlasting if you can lose it. At some time during the converstion, the postie delivered a bundle of Evangelical Times for our churh, and I asked them if they would accept a copy and they said no. I said you expect me to read your publications but you won't read mine. They said "WE are firm in our beliefs." Watchtower literature says that the Jewish faith believed in a common grave (soul sleep), but they were influenced by the Greeks which led to the immortal soul belief. I have watched several YouTube videos of Christian's attempting to evangelize JWs, and it is unimpressive to say the least. I believe our approach is all wrong. Many Christians start conversations with JWs thinking that if they convince them that heaven is open to everyone not just 144,000, they will get excited and leave the Society. The problem is most JWs DONT want to go to heaven. They want to live on a paradise earth with their resurrected wives, moms,dads, children, etc.. To go to heaven for a JW means you transform into some weird immortal invisible "spirit creature" apart from their families. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ukulelemike Posted May 6, 2017 Moderators Share Posted May 6, 2017 On 5/2/2017 at 4:41 PM, Invicta said: JWs don't beleive in Hell they say it should read Hades and that is just the grave, which, they say, is what the ancient Greeks believed. which of course the ancient Greeks did not believe. I had quite a long discussion on that with some a few years ago. More recently, the week before last in fact, I had a knock on the door and there were two young women who wanted to discuss the bible with me. They did not offer any literature which was a first but one had the JW bible on a Samsung tablet. I said I would get my bible and they said which bible was it? and I sad it was the King James. I can't remember all the conversation as it was rather long, but I asked if they were saved. They said "We can't be sure". I answered that the bible says we can, and the younger one with the tablet quoted John 3:16. I think she implied that you only have eternal life while you believed, but I said, If it is eternal or everlasting, It cannot be everlasting if you can lose it. At some time during the converstion, the postie delivered a bundle of Evangelical Times for our churh, and I asked them if they would accept a copy and they said no. I said you expect me to read your publications but you won't read mine. They said "WE are firm in our beliefs." I would say, at that point, challenge them on whether they actually know their beliefs. I find many, when pressed, don't know and have to go to their extra books that explain why their Bible means something different from what it says. I have dealt with a local JW many times and have found him willing to blatantly lie about their beliefs just so as not to be shown to be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invicta Posted May 6, 2017 Members Share Posted May 6, 2017 Next time I shall ask them "What must I do to be saved?" and see their answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheSword1227 Posted June 21, 2017 Members Share Posted June 21, 2017 On 3/12/2017 at 9:28 PM, Disciple.Luke said: I accept their literature, and throw it away later so their theological poison doesn't end up in the hands of a biblically illiterate Christian. They are very nice people and I respect their zeal. They put much of the Christian world to shame when it comes to sharing their message, even though it false. You mentioned the gang (Governing Body) in Brooklyn, but their headquarters is now in Walkill and Patterson, New York. They sold all their Brooklyn buildings for millions of dollars. I like the fact that you toss out their literature. it's one of the ways Christians can help. I do this all the time as I see their literature everywhere. Those in a "works" theology always have much zeal. What they lack is assurance of where they will end up when this life is over. I once spoke with an elderly gentleman who was a JW his whole life. I asked him if he had assurance of salvation. He said: "I can only hope I have done enough." Sad. Disciple.Luke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheSword1227 Posted June 21, 2017 Members Share Posted June 21, 2017 On 5/2/2017 at 7:41 PM, Invicta said: JWs don't beleive in Hell they say it should read Hades and that is just the grave, which, they say, is what the ancient Greeks believed. which of course the ancient Greeks did not believe. I had quite a long discussion on that with some a few years ago. More recently, the week before last in fact, I had a knock on the door and there were two young women who wanted to discuss the bible with me. They did not offer any literature which was a first but one had the JW bible on a Samsung tablet. I said I would get my bible and they said which bible was it? and I sad it was the King James. I can't remember all the conversation as it was rather long, but I asked if they were saved. They said "We can't be sure". I answered that the bible says we can, and the younger one with the tablet quoted John 3:16. I think she implied that you only have eternal life while you believed, but I said, If it is eternal or everlasting, It cannot be everlasting if you can lose it. At some time during the converstion, the postie delivered a bundle of Evangelical Times for our churh, and I asked them if they would accept a copy and they said no. I said you expect me to read your publications but you won't read mine. They said "WE are firm in our beliefs." The JW organization forbids its members from accepting non JW literature. Makes it difficult to witness to them one on one as they foist all their material on us The late Walter Martin had a method that he claimed worked very well. When the JWs came to his door, he would insist on leading a prayer prior to any discussion. Before they even knew what was happening, in the prayer, he actually shared the gospel of Jesus Christ. Invicta and John Young 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jim_Alaska Posted October 10, 2017 Administrators Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) I put JW's in the category of a cult. Cults always have distinguishing marks that are dependent on what they believe. For instance, cults always hold to beliefs that are drastically different from what real Christians have held to for centuries. These differences are things such as; the deity of Christ; the Trinity; the Holy Spirit as a real person; The KJV as the Word of God. But probably the most telling indication of a cult for me is their refusal to use traditional word usage, and having to invent their own peculiar language or words. The JW's are good at this and take great satisfaction in changing the meanings of words and phrases. This is a tactic to confuse the meanings of real words and add to the mind control tactics of the JW governing body. I'll try to list a few words and phrases that they use that are drastically different from traditional Christianity. talk = sermon faithful and discreet slave = first this was their founder Charles Taz Russel, upon his death it became Judge Rutherford upon his death it then became the governing body. Faithful and discreet slave terminology is based on this scripture: Lu 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? witness = any time thy see the word witness in scripture they insist that this means Jehovah's Witnesses. This is how they supposedly date their origins back to Apostolic times. Kingdom Hall = Church. You will never hear them refer to their Kingdom Hall as a church. Bible study = actually a study from prepared literature provided to every Kingdom Hall for every service. These are just a few, i am pressed for time this morning so will end with this observation. In recent times they have made use of computer graphics and actual produced movies.in their study and presentations in their services. A nominal JW will not study the actual bible, but will always turn to the JW website to watch these movies about books of the bible. Other presentations are of a graphical nature, such as cartoon type lessons on certain people, books and subjects. Edited October 10, 2017 by Jim_Alaska Alan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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