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Churchless again


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18 hours ago, DaveW said:

Why not just sit further back where you can't see their bare shoulders ( all you could see from behind a seated lady, which they would be while the preacher is preaching), rather than making it so obvious that the Pastor is distracted from his preaching by your actions?

I have a hearing condition that requires me to sit near the preacher so that I can hear.  I am not intentionally "making it so obvious," I am just looking away.  Why should me looking away from indecency draw more attention from the pastor than half naked females seated directly in front of him?

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Our church was searching for a new Pastor for nearly a year. In between that time there was a small group in the church who started to become very concerned that the modesty standards were in decline. I ended up on the concerned side, because my mentor (he is also a deacon) was the one who was leading the push back against the problem.

For me it was more of a learning experience. Since I have only been a member of an IFB church for a couple years, it was a bit confusing because I wasn't around when the standards were higher. 

The three main complaints were women were starting to wear small tank tops that made the bra straps visible, and a few of the younger female members were starting to wear borderline skin tight yoga material dress pants.

We just voted in our new Pastor about a month ago, so I guess his opinion on the issue will be the deciding factor on what is appropriate.

I am 100% for modesty among church members, but as a "Newbie" IFB it's hard for me to understand where that fine line of modesty ends and immodest begins. As a middle aged guy I can tell you that the tight pants are very distracting and I don't of approve of them. 

So, I guess the question for my fellow forum members is - how do you decide what's modest and not, without getting into specific appropriate pant measurements and shirt sizes that turn into a "dress code"? Most of the younger female members always wear dresses. 

Our church has a K-12 school attached to our worship building and is a huge part of our ministry to the community. Everyday when I go in to pick my son up I always feel frustrated when I see non-member moms picking their kids up with tight pants and apparently shirts they had when they were the size of a 12 year old showing as much skin as possible.

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On 3/10/2017 at 4:05 PM, Brother S. said:

...He chuckled and said that he's working on it, but they just don't seem to want to listen to his "suggestions" on the matter.  He said, "It's just not an issue I want to make a big deal about right now. At least they're coming, right?"

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.  

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The Bible says that the Christian is not conformed to this world, but rather, transformed.  Dress should reflect this.  Modest means modest and that means covering up in a way that is not revealing.  I believe men understand what is modest better than women.  It is the man that has the "sight" problem. If they would be HONEST, most men could pretty easily tell you if a woman was dressed in a modest fashion or not. (Note: Some have not been taught yet and don't know better. But some ladies simply insist on "conforming to the world" in the matter of dress, even when that pastor teaches and requests modesty.)

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55 minutes ago, 1611mac said:

The Bible says that the Christian is not conformed to this world, but rather, transformed.  Dress should reflect this.  Modest means modest and that means covering up in a way that is not revealing.  I believe men understand what is modest better than women.  It is the man that has the "sight" problem. If they would be HONEST, most men could pretty easily tell you if a woman was dressed in a modest fashion or not. (Note: Some have not been taught yet and don't know better. But some ladies simply insist on "conforming to the world" in the matter of dress, even when that pastor teaches and requests modesty.)

Thank you for the reply. I think a few of the women fall into the category of not knowing any better. There is a group of 2 or 3 that always sit together, and they all dress very similar. They are probably near the age of 40 and always wear shirts that don't completely cover the shoulders so that part of the bra strap is visible occasionally. I personally don't feel any physical attraction to them, but I work in the media booth doing the slides so I'm sitting up higher than everyone else so it's easier to notice. 

I think part of the problem is that people have visited other churches before ours, and by far the majority of of them are so seeker friendly that they invite everyone to just "come as you are" believing that modesty at church is irrelevant today.

Edited by Disciple.Luke
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I think this is a constant struggle in churches - whether from the youth, or from new folks coming in. Sometimes it's regular members who have different views. A church can require a dress standard of active members, but it's rather difficult to enforce from nominal members or visitors. You can't really just make them sit in the back or send them home to change - treating adults like children in this fashion is a good way to make sure they never darken your doors again. I'm one of the kind of folk that figure one should just make a rule, and people will obey it - cause that's what I would do - but it (frustratingly) doesn't seem to work that way with the majority. Even with our youth, we can require a standard, but if it doesn't become their standard, they will just reject it (and church) when they get older.  It can't be required of by rules - it has to be taught by principle and example. As slow and painful as that is.

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I think it a given that we have a "mix" in the church due to visitors, new un-taught Christians, etc but my concern is that we are NOT teaching modesty and that in general churches are going "immodest" in wholesale....

When visiting churches I judge by the dress of the leadership, the teachers, the greeters, the choir members, the singers, etc etc.  If someone is dressed in-appropriately I try to assume they may be visiting or just haven't been taught yet.  (For example, dress in VBS is generally awful, the kids and the parents. We have to allow for that.) But sadly, teaching on "dress" is being removed from our churches overall. Yet, it is plainly taught in the Bible.

Edited by 1611mac
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5 minutes ago, Salyan said:

I think this is a constant struggle in churches - whether from the youth, or from new folks coming in. Sometimes it's regular members who have different views. A church can require a dress standard of active members, but it's rather difficult to enforce from nominal members or visitors. You can't really just make them sit in the back or send them home to change - treating adults like children in this fashion is a good way to make sure they never darken your doors again. I'm one of the kind of folk that figure one should just make a rule, and people will obey it - cause that's what I would do - but it (frustratingly) doesn't seem to work that way with the majority. Even with our youth, we can require a standard, but if it doesn't become their standard, they will just reject it (and church) when they get older.  It can't be required of by rules - it has to be taught by principle and example. As slow and painful as that is.

I absolutely agree. And most everything you've mentioned I've considered and have no idea what the appropriate but balanced way to deal with the issue is. I'm thankful it's not up to me to find the solution!

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Well, anyone who has read about any of the issues in our church of late, probably have an idea as to how that would have gone down.  Ideally, however, it should have been an older woman in the church to speak to thse girls and teach them the importance of modesty. As some know, we have a young woman in our church, I think 25, who still wants to pop in wearing yoga pants or, last Sunday evening when I picked her up from a friend's before evening service, she was in a skin tight shirt and shorts, (and she isn't a thin girl by any means), and I asked her if she needed to be dropped off at home to change and she said, "No, I'm good." So I said, "Yeah, maybe I should drop you off to change", and she got the idea and went and put on a skirt. And this is a continual issue. I have now placed it on the shoulders of her husband, (who was sick that day, or I'd have not said anythig to her directly) and if she dresses immodestly, I will go to him and he will be expected to go to her and take care of it. 

These girls being teens, did their parents attend the church? They are the ones the pastor should have spoken to about the dress, and as a pastor, I am not shy about telling young people, (or old I don't care), that they need to out their phones down during service.  I think this pastor was not doing his job-didn't sound as though he was even trying, and he will continue to lose new people and maybe older members if he doesn't teach modesty, or they will quickly become a modern, carnal church. Better to be out of there before that happens.

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On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 9:46 AM, 1611mac said:

The Bible says that the Christian is not conformed to this world, but rather, transformed.  Dress should reflect this.  Modest means modest and that means covering up in a way that is not revealing.  I believe men understand what is modest better than women.  It is the man that has the "sight" problem. If they would be HONEST, most men could pretty easily tell you if a woman was dressed in a modest fashion or not. (Note: Some have not been taught yet and don't know better. But some ladies simply insist on "conforming to the world" in the matter of dress, even when that pastor teaches and requests modesty.)

We do have the 'sight' problem and we don't need help for our thoughts to drift to areas they should not. We don't need more SIN! However, that doesn't excuse us from seeking hard after the Lord to give grace in this area.

To the immodest dresser... Romans 14:21 "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." To we men... Psalms 101:3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.

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Interesting posts.  Without understanding the criteria for immodest dress my first response would be to establish a biblical criteria for immodest dress.  And that would not be easy if one, the pastor is new to the church or two the ladies in question are visitors.  I would think the topic would be better handled in a teaching environment as opposed to a preaching service.  Also, age is likely to determine what is considered moral and immoral apart from bible teaching.  As I am nearing seven decades of age I tend to see dress in black and white either modest or immodest, but those under thirty years of age and apart from being raised in a home where modesty was driven my both mom and dad and explained why, do not consider anything short of being nude as immodest.  Culture has definitely impacted what we consider modest, and going beyond ones dress will bring you language which in my opinion is foul but is used by both men and women, this is the millennial culture and demonstrates that generations X and Y have dropped the ball in passing on moral prerogatives. 

There may come a time when a person has to be approached but that time should be prayed over earnestly and thought out carefully, because if the case of modesty is presented incorrectly the results can be horrible and you could lose the opportunity to impact one or more families. 

Concerning the pastor's behavior, I am not sure any of us are in a position to judge, because we do not have all the details nor do we have the facial expressions, tone of voice nor the accusations.  Best to leave that one alone, against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.  

I Brother S does not feel the church is for him, he should really keep looking for a church he can serve in.  Without speaking ill, at this point, I believe he might be looking for perfection in which case he will not find it or he might wish to research the common denominator of why he has not found a church he can serve the Lord in.

I hope this post is not hurtful but thoughtful. 

     

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