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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Well folks, I am once again without a church.  I have been attending a local Independent Fundamental Baptist church. There are four teenage girls and three women in their early thirties that dress very immodestly for church, or for anywhere else for that matter.  They wear skin tight yoga pants, low cut tight tops, miniskirts, loads of make up, a few of them have multi colored hair and they are often on their cell phones. Lately, they also all seem to enjoy sitting in the front two rows.  Being a new attendee, but not yet a member, I have tried to ignore it, but it is next to impossible, since they sit in the front.  I have had to look down at my knees or out the window the entire time, which makes it look like I am not paying attention.

The pastor approached me about three weeks ago and asked me, in a light hearted way, if his sermons were boring me, because I was always looking everywhere except at him.  I told him that it's because I don't want to look at the girls and women who are dressed in the way I described.  He chuckled and said that he's working on it, but they just don't seem to want to listen to his "suggestions" on the matter.  He said, "It's just not an issue I want to make a big deal about right now. At least they're coming, right?"

I spoke with him earlier today and I politely asked him if there was any way that he could at least get them to sit at the back of the church so the rest of us can attend services without having to avert our eyes the entire time.  Well, you would have thought that I had just called him a sodomite, by the way he responded.  He got red in the face and told me that he didn't need some "impatient, weak willed pervert" telling him how to run his church; especially when they're not even a member.  When he stopped speaking, I looked at him for a moment, stood up, put my coat on, said, "Goodbye, Pastor," and walked out of his office.

This is the third self-proclaiming IFB church, in my area, that I have tried and have found enough of an issue that I could not remain attending.  I have been trying to practice patience with certain things, knowing that there is no such thing as a perfect church, but churches that don't believe in soul-winning, allow pastor's wives to fill in when the pastor is ill, allow hyper-sensual dress in church &c. are not churches that I can attend in good conscience.

So, I'm on the hunt again.

Edited by Brother Stafford
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1 hour ago, Brother Stafford said:

This is the third self-proclaiming IFB church, in my area, that I have tried and have found enough of an issue that I could not remain attending.  I have been trying to practice patience with certain things, knowing that there is no such thing as a perfect church, but churches that don't believe in soul-winning, allow pastor's wives to fill in when the pastor is ill, allow hyper-sensual dress in church &c. are not churches that I can attend in good conscience.

So, I'm on the hunt again.

Just.... wow....

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
1 hour ago, Brother Stafford said:

Well folks, I am once again without a church.  I have been attending a local Independent Fundamental Baptist church. There are four teenage girls and three women in their early thirties that dress very immodestly for church, or for anywhere else for that matter.  They wear skin tight yoga pants, low cut tight tops, miniskirts, loads of make up, a few of them have multi colored hair and they are often on their cell phones. Lately, they also all seem to enjoy sitting in the front two rows.  Being a new attendee, but not yet a member, I have tried to ignore it, but it is next to impossible, since they sit in the front.  I have had to look down at my knees or out the window the entire time, which makes it look like I am not paying attention.

The pastor approached me about three weeks ago and asked me, in a light hearted way, if his sermons were boring me, because I was always looking everywhere except at him.  I told him that it's because I don't want to look at the girls and women who are dressed in the way I described.  He chuckled and said that he's working on it, but they just don't seem to want to listen to his "suggestions" on the matter.  He said, "It's just not an issue I want to make a big deal about right now. At least they're coming, right?"

I spoke with him earlier today and I politely asked him if there was any way that he could at least get them to sit at the back of the church so the rest of us can attend services without having to avert our eyes the entire time.  Well, you would have thought that I had just called him a sodomite, by the way he responded.  He got red in the face and told me that he didn't need some "impatient, weak willed pervert" telling him how to run his church; especially when they're not even a member.  When he stopped speaking, I looked at him for a moment, stood up, put my coat on, said, "Goodbye, Pastor," and walked out of his office.

This is the third self-proclaiming IFB church, in my area, that I have tried and have found enough of an issue that I could not remain attending.  I have been trying to practice patience with certain things, knowing that there is no such thing as a perfect church, but churches that don't believe in soul-winning, allow pastor's wives to fill in when the pastor is ill, allow hyper-sensual dress in church &c. are not churches that I can attend in good conscience.

So, I'm on the hunt again.

You actually asked the pastor of a church that you are not even a member of to try to get some folks in his church, whom I assume from your story were there before you, to move to sitting in the back rows because their immodest dress bothered you?!?

Sorry, Brother. I would have run you off too.

Christ was a friend of publicans and sinner, he didn't relegate them to the back row because they didn't yet look like him. I thought we WANTED sinners and backsliders and the carnal Christian on the front row, where they can hear the preaching clear, direct and without distraction. "They that are whole have no need of the physician..."

We're not talking about someone serving, singing, teaching or leading. Just ... sitting.

I'm just completely flummoxed.

 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
39 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

You actually asked the pastor of a church that you are not even a member of to try to get some folks in his church, whom I assume from your story were there before you, to move to sitting in the back rows because their immodest dress bothered you?!?

Sorry, Brother. I would have run you off too.

He approached me.  I didn't include every aspect of the situation, step by step.  He called me into his office and asked me what my problem was when I was just minding my own business, trying to avert my eyes, specifically because I did not feel that I had the right to speak about the situation because I was not even a member.  I repeat:  HE came to Me.  Then, when I answered  his inquiry, he blew up at me.  Call me crazy, but I don't appreciate having names yelled at me for responding to a pastor's questions.

It saddens me to hear that you would have treated me inthe same manner.

 

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Brother Stafford... I am saddened that yet another pastor of a church evidently does not teach on modesty (which seems to be the case here though I don't have all the facts.)  Sadly, this is an area where pastors seldom tread....  Good churches that have correct doctrine and also correct practice are extremely hard to find.  So many want to keep one foot in the church and one foot in the world. That is not what God had in mind. See my signature.

Praying you can find a place to worship..  

 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
13 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

He approached me.  I didn't include every aspect of the situation, step by step.  He called me into his office and asked me what my problem was when I was just minding my own business, trying to avert my eyes, specifically because I did not feel that I had the right to speak about the situation because I was not even a member.  I repeat:  HE came to Me.  Then, when I answered  his inquiry, he blew up at me.  Call me crazy, but I don't appreciate having names yelled at me for responding to a pastor's questions.

It saddens me to hear that you would have treated me in the same manner.

 

First, there is a big difference between a pastor calling you in and asking you a question, and you going in and making such a request on your own. Re-read your post, and see which way your writing comes across.

Second, you said yourself that he "was working on it" and they were "refusing his suggestions". So 1611mac's sadness at this pastor's supposed failure to do his duty is also unfounded based on the information currently available.

Thirdly, you gave no indication wither these young ladies were saved, carnal church members or lost sinners who are attending for whatever reason.

I'm a little scratchy right now, 'cause the righteous indignation from the poor saint who is being put upon and persecuted for his righteousness and holiness is just dripping from both you and 1611mac. I have both lost and saved-but-badly-wounded female relatives back east whom I would rejoice to tears to see back in church, regardless of what they were wearing. Godly modesty comes first from inward righteousness, not external conformity. I hope they do not accidentally wind up in a church you are in, and get asked to set in the back row so that you can maintain your moral high ground.

I'm just a guy. A very cracked, plain, flawed vessel. Everyone on this forum knows that very well by now. I don't have any idea why God called me to preach, because I have none of the genteel qualities that are held in high esteem by my IFB brethren. I'm about as earthy (not earthly) and mud-on-you-boots as a man can get. But I do love sinners. I love and weep for broken, wounded, back-slidden Christians who are out of the fold and need to be brought back. I am eternally patient with the weak sheep, but I surely tend to go all Nehemiah on the saint who is more concerned with their own peace of mind than they are the needs of the strayed and lost.

I'm going to get off this forum for a while tonight and cool down. Because I am very angry right now. And if that's a problem for anyone, look up how many time Jesus got angry at the disciples, what he was angry at, and how he in contrast treated the whores, thieves and sinners.

We have become so defensive of our spirituality and morality today we no longer know "what spirit we are of".

 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
35 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

I hope they do not accidentally wind up in a church you are in, and get asked to set in the back row so that you can maintain your moral high ground.

Do you have a line you draw when it comes to the attire of women (or men) in your church?  Is there a point that you put the safety of your flock before the hospitality of the indecent?  At what point do you tell people that they cannot flaunt their flesh in front of the rest of a church who has gathered to worship the most holy and almighty God?  Would you allow your female members to sit in the front row in bikinis and weep that such broken women are at least willing to attend?  Would you allow them to flaunt themselves and ignore your preaching by giggling and playing with their phones?  If not, then where do YOU draw the line of decency in your church?

What about the men and women in your church that are doing everything within their power to keep their thoughts pure and who avoid indecency at all costs (Psalms 101:3)?  What about those members and visitors, who are bombarded with hyper sexuality absolutely everywhere they go in their public lives, and are counting the moments until they can gather with others who are thirsty for holiness and where they can get a respite from the open indecency of the world?  Would you require them to stare at the half naked flesh and the skin tight attire of intentionally provocative women who position themselves in the front of a house of worship? 

35 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

I'm going to get off this forum for a while tonight and cool down. Because I am very angry right now. And if that's a problem for anyone, look up how many time Jesus got angry at the disciples, what he was angry at, and how he in contrast treated the whores, thieves and sinners.

At what point did Jesus get upset at the disciples for asking whores to not attend church half naked?  At what point did I call the women at the church whores?  At what point did I say that lost whores outside of a place of worship should not be given the Gospel?

We obviously have different views on this subject, but I would not compare myself to Christ Himself because of how I feel about it.

Edited by Brother Stafford
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2 hours ago, weary warrior said:

I'm a little scratchy right now, 'cause the righteous indignation from the poor saint who is being put upon and persecuted for his righteousness and holiness is just dripping from both you and 1611mac.

Am I reading this right?  Because I believe that "modesty" should be taught in church that makes me "just dripping" with "righteousness and holiness?"  

I'll set the record straight.  I can say like Paul:  "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."  But that has nothing to do with the mandate for the church to be pure. Though I fail, I would still do my best to teach what the Scripture says. 

Eph 5:27* That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

-

 

Edited by 1611mac
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
9 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

This is the third self-proclaiming IFB church, in my area, that I have tried and have found enough of an issue that I could not remain attending.  I have been trying to practice patience with certain things, knowing that there is no such thing as a perfect church, but churches that don't believe in soul-winning, allow pastor's wives to fill in when the pastor is ill, allow hyper-sensual dress in church &c. are not churches that I can attend in good conscience.

So, I'm on the hunt again.

I'm not sure of your location in MI or how far you are willing to travel but I know myself, Brother Markle, and a few others may know of some Good modest soul winning churches.

My sending church in Kalamazoo, MI has a desire for sinners (that's what door to door soul winning is for!) but we also expected people to be clothed and in their right mind as well. While we welcome anyone to the services, the church house is ultimately for the believer to be edified. If these girls were new visitors kids or bus kids that inadvertently got picked up without being told to go back inside the house and change for church that is one thing (there is no reason to allow kids a ride to church not properly dressed) but if theses were church member kids it most definitely should have been addressed directly and taken care of by the church. 

Luke 8:35 Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesusclothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

1 Timothy 2:9-10 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 10 but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works

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Why not just sit further back where you can't see their bare shoulders ( all you could see from behind a seated lady, which they would be while the preacher is preaching), rather than making it so obvious that the Pastor is distracted from his preaching by your actions?

The preacher was working on the issue from your account......

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9 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Why not just sit further back where you can't see their bare shoulders ( all you could see from behind a seated lady, which they would be while the preacher is preaching), rather than making it so obvious that the Pastor is distracted from his preaching by your actions?

The preacher was working on the issue from your account......

The point that made him leave was not the dress but rather the way in which the pastor called him to the office and questioned him, then blew up at him for his reply.

Edited by John Young
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1 hour ago, John Young said:

The point that made him leave was not the dress but rather the way in which the pastor called him to the office and questioned him, then blew up at him for his reply.

Maybe you should carefully read the original post and keep in mind that there are three sides to every story......

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36 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Maybe you should carefully read the original post and keep in mind that there are three sides to every story......

Basically true, however, I can only speak to Brother Stafford's needs as only he can give his story as it pertains to him and his reasons. I find no need to question his side of the story or his motives for leaving. If this pastor wants Brother Stafford back at the church then I'm sure he would contact him and make the necessary apologies, rebukes, accommodations, or compromises.

 

10 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

He approached me.  I didn't include every aspect of the situation, step by step.  He called me into his office and asked me what my problem was when I was just minding my own business, trying to avert my eyes, specifically because I did not feel that I had the right to speak about the situation because I was not even a member.  I repeat:  HE came to Me.  Then, when I answered  his inquiry, he blew up at me.  Call me crazy, but I don't appreciate having names yelled at me for responding to a pastor's questions.

It saddens me to hear that you would have treated me inthe same manner.

 

Edited by John Young
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1 Tm 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

Modest apparel is what the church should be teaching...  Yes, there are exceptions:  Visitors, Christians not taught yet, etc.  (That should be understood and not have to be said here but it seems it does.) Dress at VBS time is often horrible because of the guests who don't know better.  Dress at RU meetings will probably not be modest.  We make some allowances but in the church we teach modesty. If parents are doing right in raising their kids they should expect modesty when they attend church.  The pastor who does not teach modesty is not protecting these children.  Children need to know and see that the Church is not the world.  It is different.  It is separate. And again, I guess I should say the obvious... This is all done in Christian love and patience. Not high minded or haughty.  "Modesty" is found in the Bible just like all the other doctrines we teach.  But when is the last time you heard a lesson or sermon on Modesty?  No long ago I pray......

Edited by 1611mac
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Balance.

We don't know all of the particulars.

We don't know all that may have been done to correct the situation...or what hasn't been done to correct the situation.

We don't know.

Without knowing all of the particulars, I think leniency should be afforded in most cases; after all, we are all still growing. I didn't adopt all of my beliefs or convictions the day that I was saved. Some things changed immediately; some didn't. The Lord has grown me and groomed me as I've grown in the knowledge of Christ...and he continues to do so. I was a "rocker" when I got saved. Long hair, rebellious attitude, and so forth. I replaced worldly rock music with so-called "Christian-rock" after I was saved. It took a while for me to realize what I was doing and accepting...but at the time...and in my understanding at the time...I thought I was doing well. For example, I gave up television, drinking, and foul language immediately...no problem...didn't even notice those things had disappeared at first...but the music took a while to get fixed and get straight.

In my current place...and looking at my own situation, I would afford the new Christian, carnal Christian (to a lesser extent), or non-Christian grace in their current state. I certainly didn't become who I am today on the day that I was saved. I, and all of us, are still growing. I'm not saying that my situation was perfect or one to be copied by anyone...

...I'm just saying that that's me. :)

Edited by No Nicolaitans
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
18 hours ago, DaveW said:

Why not just sit further back where you can't see their bare shoulders ( all you could see from behind a seated lady, which they would be while the preacher is preaching), rather than making it so obvious that the Pastor is distracted from his preaching by your actions?

I have a hearing condition that requires me to sit near the preacher so that I can hear.  I am not intentionally "making it so obvious," I am just looking away.  Why should me looking away from indecency draw more attention from the pastor than half naked females seated directly in front of him?

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  • 2 weeks later...
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Our church was searching for a new Pastor for nearly a year. In between that time there was a small group in the church who started to become very concerned that the modesty standards were in decline. I ended up on the concerned side, because my mentor (he is also a deacon) was the one who was leading the push back against the problem.

For me it was more of a learning experience. Since I have only been a member of an IFB church for a couple years, it was a bit confusing because I wasn't around when the standards were higher. 

The three main complaints were women were starting to wear small tank tops that made the bra straps visible, and a few of the younger female members were starting to wear borderline skin tight yoga material dress pants.

We just voted in our new Pastor about a month ago, so I guess his opinion on the issue will be the deciding factor on what is appropriate.

I am 100% for modesty among church members, but as a "Newbie" IFB it's hard for me to understand where that fine line of modesty ends and immodest begins. As a middle aged guy I can tell you that the tight pants are very distracting and I don't of approve of them. 

So, I guess the question for my fellow forum members is - how do you decide what's modest and not, without getting into specific appropriate pant measurements and shirt sizes that turn into a "dress code"? Most of the younger female members always wear dresses. 

Our church has a K-12 school attached to our worship building and is a huge part of our ministry to the community. Everyday when I go in to pick my son up I always feel frustrated when I see non-member moms picking their kids up with tight pants and apparently shirts they had when they were the size of a 12 year old showing as much skin as possible.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
On 3/10/2017 at 4:05 PM, Brother S. said:

...He chuckled and said that he's working on it, but they just don't seem to want to listen to his "suggestions" on the matter.  He said, "It's just not an issue I want to make a big deal about right now. At least they're coming, right?"

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.  

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The Bible says that the Christian is not conformed to this world, but rather, transformed.  Dress should reflect this.  Modest means modest and that means covering up in a way that is not revealing.  I believe men understand what is modest better than women.  It is the man that has the "sight" problem. If they would be HONEST, most men could pretty easily tell you if a woman was dressed in a modest fashion or not. (Note: Some have not been taught yet and don't know better. But some ladies simply insist on "conforming to the world" in the matter of dress, even when that pastor teaches and requests modesty.)

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