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Orval

Revelation 14:13

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Revelation 14:13 states “and their works shall follow them” speaking of the death of the tribulation saints.  1 Cor. 3 states that that we are building on the foundation of Christ and that the labor we expend on our spiritual structure will ultimately be represented as gold, silver and precious stones as well as wood, hay and stubble. 

 

I believe that the gold, silver and precious stones will make up the crown or crowns that we will lay down at the feet of Jesus in Revelation 4:10.  Their rewards do follow them would indicate that both positive rewards and negative rewards will be eternally acknowledged. 

 

While I do not believe 14:13 is simply a soul winning promise there is a crown for the one who has a passion to bring others into the kingdom of heaven.   In Philippians 1:4 and 1 Thess. 2:18-20 Paul refers to those he had led to Christ as his crown and his crown of rejoicing.  We also know that the bible clearly speaks of at least four other crowns that may be received by believers after death. 

 

I believe I am on solid ground comparing the two passages in the New Testament.  Here is my question, are the works that will follow the same works that will be tried by fire?  If they are, then are both rewards somehow eternal?  Meaning will the metal the crown is made of, gold or silver, mean anything eternally and will the lack of precious stones on those crowns be an eternal indicator to others of what we failed to do on earth?

 

Will the crowns be place at the feet of Christ as a token to what we have allowed the Spirit of God to accomplish through us and that will be the last we see of the crowns? 

 

I will be interested to read your thoughts on this question.  

 

 Thanks for taking your time to respond.

 

   

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So I'm not really disagreeing with you, but I want to pull some analytical threads...

You're comparing the activities and rewards of Church Age/present-day believers with respect to eternal rewards and crossing some major eschatological timeline boundaries so you have to answer a few questions before determining whether it's a valid comparison:

1) Who are the 24 Elders in Rev 4:10 that are casting the crowns at Jesus feet?

    1a) Do they include the tribulation saints? If not, what indication do you have that they will have crowns like we will have crowns?

2) When do you believe the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place wherein the works of the Church Age saints are tried? Will the tribulation saints go through the same process as we will?

3) How can Rev 14:13, which takes place sometime in the latter half of the tribulation, point back to Church Age believers that are already in heaven according to Rev 4:10 before the tribulation has begun?

4) When you say "their rewards do follow them...", to whom are you referring (church age saints or tribulation saints)?

5) You also say "...would indicate that both positive rewards and negative rewards will be eternally acknowledged." What is a negative reward and why do you say they will be eternally acknowledged?

6) What exactly do you believe is being tried by fire?

Before I can offer a thoughtful answer to your main question, I need to have a better understanding of what exactly you're asserting.

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22 hours ago, Orval said:

Revelation 14:13 states “and their works shall follow them” speaking of the death of the tribulation saints.  1 Cor. 3 states that that we are building on the foundation of Christ and that the labor we expend on our spiritual structure will ultimately be represented as gold, silver and precious stones as well as wood, hay and stubble. 

 

I believe that the gold, silver and precious stones will make up the crown or crowns that we will lay down at the feet of Jesus in Revelation 4:10.  Their rewards do follow them would indicate that both positive rewards and negative rewards will be eternally acknowledged. 

 

While I do not believe 14:13 is simply a soul winning promise there is a crown for the one who has a passion to bring others into the kingdom of heaven.   In Philippians 1:4 and 1 Thess. 2:18-20 Paul refers to those he had led to Christ as his crown and his crown of rejoicing.  We also know that the bible clearly speaks of at least four other crowns that may be received by believers after death. 

 

I believe I am on solid ground comparing the two passages in the New Testament.  Here is my question, are the works that will follow the same works that will be tried by fire?  If they are, then are both rewards somehow eternal?  Meaning will the metal the crown is made of, gold or silver, mean anything eternally and will the lack of precious stones on those crowns be an eternal indicator to others of what we failed to do on earth?

 

Will the crowns be place at the feet of Christ as a token to what we have allowed the Spirit of God to accomplish through us and that will be the last we see of the crowns? 

 

I will be interested to read your thoughts on this question.  

 

 Thanks for taking your time to respond.

 

   

I am also curious about Rev 4:10 but I am not convinced we (church age folk) are included in this event. The passage itself specifically states the 24. I believe this casting of crowns is a display of reverence for the Lord more than anything else and not a permanent losing of reward for these 24. The original tribesmen of Israel and the Apostles of the Lamb would be my thoughts on who these 24 are (Rev 21:12-14 is one clue IMO).

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

**on a side note, I seriously doubt Matthias' name will be there :)

Scripture indicates in numerous passages that rewards are "eternal", example would be Luke 12:33.

Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

It also indicates in places that there will rank among God's people for eternity, one example would be Matt 5:19.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It would make complete sense to me that this rank would be indicated in some way also as you mention (number of crowns, missing stones, silver or gold, etc). 

 

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20 hours ago, wretched said:

I am also curious about Rev 4:10 but I am not convinced we (church age folk) are included in this event. The passage itself specifically states the 24. I believe this casting of crowns is a display of reverence for the Lord more than anything else and not a permanent losing of reward for these 24. The original tribesmen of Israel and the Apostles of the Lamb would be my thoughts on who these 24 are (Rev 21:12-14 is one clue IMO).

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

**on a side note, I seriously doubt Matthias' name will be there :)

Scripture indicates in numerous passages that rewards are "eternal", example would be Luke 12:33.

Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

It also indicates in places that there will rank among God's people for eternity, one example would be Matt 5:19.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It would make complete sense to me that this rank would be indicated in some way also as you mention (number of crowns, missing stones, silver or gold, etc). 

As Brother "Wretched" has communicated, I myself also am NOT convinced that the event of Revelation 4:10 is intended to indicate that we ALL will cast our "crowns" at our Lord's feet (although If we shall, I have NOT complaint against it, since He is CERTAINLY worthy).

However, concerning Matthew 5:19 (and similar passages), I have to wonder if "the kingdom of heaven" is intended more as a reference to the millennial kingdom of Christ upon the earth, than upon "the new heaven and new earth" of eternity.

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Just now, Pastor Scott Markle said:

As Brother "Wretched" has communicated, I myself also am NOT convinced that the event of Revelation 4:10 is intended to indicate that we ALL will cast our "crowns" at our Lord's feet (although If we shall, I have NOT complaint against it, since He is CERTAINLY worthy).

However, concerning Matthew 5:19 (and similar passages), I have to wonder if "the kingdom of heaven" is intended more as a reference to the millennial kingdom of Christ upon the earth, than upon "the new heaven and new earth" of eternity.

Howdy Bro. Scott,

Just to be clear, are you wondering if obedience to the sermon on the mount determines reward for church age believers during the Millennium only and perhaps not in eternity that follows.

Or are you wondering the general applicability of Christ's teachings in the Gospels to us as church age believers?

 

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34 minutes ago, wretched said:

Howdy Bro. Scott,

Just to be clear, are you wondering if obedience to the sermon on the mount determines reward for church age believers during the Millennium only and perhaps not in eternity that follows.

Or are you wondering the general applicability of Christ's teachings in the Gospels to us as church age believers?

Brother "Wretched,"

I have NO question in my mind or doctrinal position AT ALL that the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ in the gospels, and in the Sermon on the Mount in particular, has application unto us New Testament believers.  I believe that it certainly DOES.

My "wondering" would be closer to your first question.  To be precise, I have to wonder whether the specific phrase, "the kingdom of heaven," sometime refers more to the millennial kingdom than to eternity, especially in "future reward" contexts.  (I pray that that explanation was clear enough, and not just more confusing.)

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6 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother "Wretched,"

I have NO question in my mind or doctrinal position AT ALL that the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ in the gospels, and in the Sermon on the Mount in particular, has application unto us New Testament believers.  I believe that it certainly DOES.

My "wondering" would be closer to your first question.  To be precise, I have to wonder whether the specific phrase, "the kingdom of heaven," sometime refers more to the millennial kingdom than to eternity, especially in "future reward" contexts.  (I pray that that explanation was clear enough, and not just more confusing.)

Crystal clear brother, thanks for clarifying.

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Daniel 12:1-3

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

 

(Your shine will show your faithfulness forever. I believe this applies to all saved through out our time on earth.)

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