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What are the strong points of the Reformed system


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I believe one of the biggest issues that Calvinists reject or ignore, or just argue pointlessly against, is the drawing of God. Jesus said that only those who the father draws can come to Him. Okay, I get that and believe it. But who is drawn? Well, Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me." Now, if we believe that Jesus IS God, the Everlasting Father, then His drawing is sufficient to draw whoever He draws, and in His own word, He draws ALL men, (no qualifying statement to say that 'all' only means a certain number or group of 'all') unto Himself. So, literally, everyone is drawn. Someone tried to argue that this speaks of being drawn directly through the giving of the gospel-okay, then if that's the case, according to Calvinism, EVERYONE who ever hears the gospel is drawn, therefore has no choice but to receive. But this is clearly false-most who hear the gospel reject the gospel. So, while all are drawn, not ALL who are drawn are saved-ergo, some MUST have the bility to accept or reject that drawing.

Another point is, in John 1:9 we see Jesus is the light of the world who lightens every man THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD. Every. Man. That qualifying statement means, literally, everyone. Everyone is enlightened to the truth, given the ability to receive the truth of the gospel. yet according to Calvinism, they are NOT all given the ability to receive it. But since we see here that they ARE all lighteth by Christ, that means some can clearly reject Him.

I get that faith is of God-I believe this is what it speaks of in John 1:9-that Jesus gives to all men faith to be able te receive Him. But clearly not all do. So either Jesus gives ALL faith and draws ALL, then porposely REJECTS  some from being able to act upon those things, and then casts them to hell for doing what He didi not enable them to do, which I do not believe, or he gives all faith, draws all, and in His sovereignty, gives us the ABILITY to receive Him or reject Him. A free gift is just that: a free gift-a forced gift is not free, and a gift held out but yanked away, is no gift at all.

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They say that God's drawing is "Irresistable" but the Bible gives an account of a man who did just that while being dealt with by the Holy Ghost.

 

Acts 24

And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

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Sometimes semantics matter. Total Inability is much truer to what Calvinists teach because they go beyond Total Depravity and say even mankind's will is depraved. If a man's will was totally unable to place faith in Christ than Irresistable Grace would be true by default. That's why I mention this. Just like Perseverance of the Saints is more accurate to Reformed doctrine than Preservation of the Saints. It's important to get the terminally correct in this case.

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22 minutes ago, fastjav390 said:

Sometimes semantics matter. Total Inability is much truer to what Calvinists teach because they go beyond Total Depravity and say even mankind's will is depraved. If a man's will was totally unable to place faith in Christ than Irresistable Grace would be true by default. That's why I mention this. Just like Perseverance of the Saints is more accurate to Reformed doctrine than Preservation of the Saints. It's important to get the terminally correct in this case.

Ahhh, but you see -- I myself would AGREE that a spiritually dead and lost sinner's will IS depraved.  If you believe otherwise, then I would stand in disagreement with you on this particular point of "total depravity."

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2 hours ago, heartstrings said:

They say that God's drawing is "Irresistable" but the Bible gives an account of a man who did just that while being dealt with by the Holy Ghost.

 

Acts 24

And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

No one seems to consider that God, Himself, Jesus Christ, PERSONALLY walked the earth and preached the truth and called many to Himself for years, but in the end only 120 responded positively. So I guess Jesus was just playing with them and didn't really mean it. Also consider to your statement the rich young ruler, who willingly chose his riches over Jesus. A clear invitation was made, and a clear willing rejection.

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3 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

I believe one of the biggest issues that Calvinists reject or ignore, or just argue pointlessly against, is the drawing of God. Jesus said that only those who the father draws can come to Him. Okay, I get that and believe it. But who is drawn? Well, Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me." Now, if we believe that Jesus IS God, the Everlasting Father, then His drawing is sufficient to draw whoever He draws, and in His own word, He draws ALL men, (no qualifying statement to say that 'all' only means a certain number or group of 'all') unto Himself. So, literally, everyone is drawn. Someone tried to argue that this speaks of being drawn directly through the giving of the gospel-okay, then if that's the case, according to Calvinism, EVERYONE who ever hears the gospel is drawn, therefore has no choice but to receive. But this is clearly false-most who hear the gospel reject the gospel. So, while all are drawn, not ALL who are drawn are saved-ergo, some MUST have the bility to accept or reject that drawing.

Another point is, in John 1:9 we see Jesus is the light of the world who lightens every man THAT COMETH INTO THE WORLD. Every. Man. That qualifying statement means, literally, everyone. Everyone is enlightened to the truth, given the ability to receive the truth of the gospel. yet according to Calvinism, they are NOT all given the ability to receive it. But since we see here that they ARE all lighteth by Christ, that means some can clearly reject Him.

I get that faith is of God-I believe this is what it speaks of in John 1:9-that Jesus gives to all men faith to be able te receive Him. But clearly not all do. So either Jesus gives ALL faith and draws ALL, then porposely REJECTS  some from being able to act upon those things, and then casts them to hell for doing what He didi not enable them to do, which I do not believe, or he gives all faith, draws all, and in His sovereignty, gives us the ABILITY to receive Him or reject Him. A free gift is just that: a free gift-a forced gift is not free, and a gift held out but yanked away, is no gift at all.

I believe the more we go over this the more sound our application of scripture becomes. Some things we've skipped over like a stone on smooth water. Just like the ALL you point to above.

Also, the gift you mentioned, Ephesians 2:8, that grace giving us faith. Just like the ALL above, is given to all by one Ephesians 2:13. Reading Ephesians chapter 2 is like getting saved all over again! I was once afar off and having no hope but the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary gave me opportunity and grace was opened to me. Praise God!

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49 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

No one seems to consider that God, Himself, Jesus Christ, PERSONALLY walked the earth and preached the truth and called many to Himself for years, but in the end only 120 responded positively. So I guess Jesus was just playing with them and didn't really mean it. Also consider to your statement the rich young ruler, who willingly chose his riches over Jesus. A clear invitation was made, and a clear willing rejection.

...and He said "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how often would I have gathered thee....?"

The word "would" is another form of the word "will": Effectively stating that it was His(God's) will that all of Jerusalem be saved.But then He says "But YE "would not"

Edited by heartstrings
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On 3/21/2017 at 9:23 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

 

By the way, Brother "Fundamental Faith," as I stated at the beginning of this posting, I myself do NOT hold unto ANY of the "five" points in Calvinistic soteriology.  As such, I must contend that "unconditional election" is NOT taught in John 6, John 10, Romans 8-9, or Ephesians 1

John 6:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

who is doing the giving? Who initiated the process? God

John6:63 actually says it's the spirit that gives life, not of the flesh

John 10:28 it is God that gives eternal life.

Romans 9:

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

You can not; I repeat CAN NOT, read this and come thinking anything other than that it is God' sovereignty at work here. How anyone could read this and think that it's man's house is salvation is either a liar or they are reading their traditions into the Scriptures

 

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17 minutes ago, Fundamental Faith said:

You can not; I repeat CAN NOT, read this and come thinking anything other than that it is God' sovereignty at work here. How anyone could read this and think that it's man's house is salvation is either a liar or they are reading their traditions into the Scriptures

I don't think anyone here believes that man has any part in obtaining salvation.

I have two questions...

  1. Will you please clarify your position regarding whether you are a Calvinist, Reformed, Doctrine of Grace follower, etc., or are you not?
  2. When you speak of God's sovereignty, do you therefore believe that God controls everything?
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5 hours ago, Fundamental Faith said:

John 6:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

who is doing the giving? Who initiated the process? God

John6:63 actually says it's the spirit that gives life, not of the flesh

John 10:28 it is God that gives eternal life.

Romans 9:

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

You can not; I repeat CAN NOT, read this and come thinking anything other than that it is God' sovereignty at work here. How anyone could read this and think that it's man's house is salvation is either a liar or they are reading their traditions into the Scriptures

 

Why are you being so aggressive, dear brother?  To accuse fellow believers of being "liars" because they don't see the Bible through the eyes of 5-point Calvinism is a touch naughty.

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10 hours ago, Fundamental Faith said:

John 6:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

who is doing the giving? Who initiated the process? God

John6:63 actually says it's the spirit that gives life, not of the flesh

John 10:28 it is God that gives eternal life.

Romans 9:

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

You can not; I repeat CAN NOT, read this and come thinking anything other than that it is God' sovereignty at work here. How anyone could read this and think that it's man's house is salvation is either a liar or they are reading their traditions into the Scriptures

 

The omniscience of God is the answer you miss my friend. The overwhelming weight of Scripture from cover to cover clearly proves that all people were born with and all angels were created with total and complete free will. There would have never been the first sins in Heaven and on earth if God controlled everything.

Please reread the passages you quoted only this time, reread them with the truth of God's foreknowledge of all things and not His manipulation of all things. If done honestly you will see the truth of this matter.

He sees all time at all times and knows all but rarely does He intervene except for His higher purposes and there have been times where importunistic prayer has changed His mind and other times where He entertained negotiation from servants to change His mind. (Moses at Mount Sinai; Abraham at Sodem; Nineveh repented after God already said He would destroy them in 40 days without caveat; Hezekiah for his own life, etc.) All God has ever wanted of man and angels was to be loved, praised and obeyed voluntarily. Certainly you can see this throughout Scripture?

Not even the crucifixion was orchestrated by God. He knew that when He sent Him, He would be slain by foreknowledge.

Acts.2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

calvinists are not hand picked and manipulated into anything against your own will. If a calvinist is born again, it is only because they responded in faith to God's drawing of their own free will.

1Pet.1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 

Please see that what you are claiming here is in fact making God's view of history your own view of history which is false and presumptuous. He knows exactly how much fruit we each will bring to perfection through obedience to God's commands to sow with tears and the power of His Spirit. However, if we cripple ourselves falsely from the start with this notion that God controls men's minds and hearts, we will never bear any fruit nor bring any to perfection. Any evangelism becomes merely academic, for show only and a stench in God's nose. 

Look at it this way friend, if God cannot force us to feed on His Word daily and lose our earthly ambitions completely to Him as saved people do you honestly think He forces anyone lost to believe to begin with? Why? So He can watch them disobey His commands again only now, the disobedience comes from HIS ELECT? Sadly this whole calvinite notion is ludicrous.

Sounds like a broken record but I say it again x5. It seems telling to me that every calvin follower that I have run across follow men's writings more than God's Word. TULIP cannot be garnered from the Word, it can only be learned through men. The Scriptural proof texts given always confuse God's foreknowledge with His manipulation.

stick with the Bible only, dump the heresies of men, start over again and let's saturate ourselves ONLY in the Word.  

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12 hours ago, Fundamental Faith said:

John 6:

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

who is doing the giving? Who initiated the process? God

John6:63 actually says it's the spirit that gives life, not of the flesh

John 10:28 it is God that gives eternal life.

Romans 9:

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

You can not; I repeat CAN NOT, read this and come thinking anything other than that it is God' sovereignty at work here. How anyone could read this and think that it's man's house is salvation is either a liar or they are reading their traditions into the Scriptures

 

Yes, God can choose whoever He wants to show mercy and compassion, because He is the supreme all-powerful Being. But I'm just thankful that Almighty God chooses to show compassion to ALL. The Bible says that He makes His rain to fall and the sun to shine on the just and the unjust and thereby showing that God loves His "enemies" and exhorts us to do the same so we can "be like our Father in Heaven". (Matthew 5:44-45). And, because He chooses to love and show mercy to all,  He also says it is His will that all be saved (2 Peter 3:9). However, about "sovereignty"? This is something God says about His sovereignty........

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

That means that you and I choose the path we take, whether it be to trust and follow God, or revel in sin. But God holds the ultimate consequences of whatever we choose. He will judge ALL, and He will judge Calvinists who insist on misrepresenting Him in false doctrine. That's God's "sovereignty" in this matter.

Edited by heartstrings
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Reply to Heartstrings: You are so right, brother. If we were incapable of believing in Christ then God wouldn't judge us for not doing so. The Lord convicts of sin  but we have to make the response.  We are then judged by that response.  That is why John 3 v 18 makes it clear that people who don't believe in Christ as the Son of God are condemned for their unbelief

It is really so simple, but unfortunately there are many who choose to listen to the words of men rather than seeking to come back to the Bible alone.

Edited by The real Bob Hutton
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On 3/23/2017 at 10:09 AM, heartstrings said:

Yes, God can choose whoever He wants to show mercy and compassion, because He is the supreme all-powerful Being. But I'm just thankful that Almighty God chooses to show compassion to ALL. The Bible says that He makes His rain to fall and the sun to shine on the just and the unjust and thereby showing that God loves His "enemies" and exhorts us to do the same so we can "be like our Father in Heaven". (Matthew 5:44-45). And, because He chooses to love and show mercy to all,  He also says it is His will that all be saved (2 Peter 3:9). However, about "sovereignty"? This is something God says about His sovereignty........

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

That means that you and I choose the path we take, whether it be to trust and follow God, or revel in sin. But God holds the ultimate consequences of whatever we choose. He will judge ALL, and He will judge Calvinists who insist on misrepresenting Him in false doctrine. That's God's "sovereignty" in this matter.

I see you don't address Eph 1 here. And for a lack of time, I'll address later. You are twisting what the Scriptures say

On 3/23/2017 at 3:09 AM, The real Bob Hutton said:

Why are you being so aggressive, dear brother?  To accuse fellow believers of being "liars" because they don't see the Bible through the eyes of 5-point Calvinism is a touch naughty.

I am not being aggressive. Sorry you took it as such.

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On 3/23/2017 at 1:11 PM, The real Bob Hutton said:

Reply to Heartstrings: You are so right, brother. If we were incapable of believing in Christ then God wouldn't judge us for not doing so. The Lord convicts of sin  but we have to make the response.  We are then judged by that response.  That is why John 3 v 18 makes it clear that people who don't believe in Christ as the Son of God are condemned for their unbelief

It is really so simple, but unfortunately there are many who choose to listen to the words of men rather than seeking to come back to the Bible alone.

This is a stretch in logic. Most of people in an independent Babptist churches are mostly following Scofeild. I know I know, you claim to be reading your Bible. But mostly it's through the lens of Scofeild. There is no Dispensationalism taught anywhere in church history before him.that is why most people in our churches, despise church history.

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