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Brother Stafford

Hovind Hypocrisy

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On 3/7/2017 at 10:57 PM, DaveW said:

Ummm - you would only have to find a single instance where a ministry was done WITHOUT a (local) church being behind it.......

I sort of mentioned that in the first sentence:

If I am wrong, you should be able to come up with an easy example.... the burden is to find something contrary to my statement in the Bible.

We do not find a command for it, but for instance, Paul started many churches, and he went out under the authority of the church at Antioch.

Authority is evident.

For that matter, I don't see ANY MINISTRY other than (local) churches being started in the Bible.

So there you are - although I have not presented "a scripture" to support it, I have presented a Bible character for you to study.

Since mine is a statement of "Exclusion" so to speak, if I am wrong you should be able to present any number of examples that show a ministry started outside a (local) church and without the authority of a(local) church behind it. But one would be enough.

____________________________________________________________________________________

I have just re-read this and I think it could be perceived as me being a little "short" with my response.

Please let me assure you that I do not intend for it to sound mean, short, or sarcastic in any way - but I am not sure how to re-word it at this stage. 

Sorry if it does come across that way, but it is not intentional..........

John the Baptist had a ministry. Jesus had a ministry and he said this...

Luke 9

49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Kent Hovind claims to be a preacher and, no doubt he must have been "ordained" somewhere. But my biggest issue with Mr. Hovind is not "local church authority" which I am <<<<NOT denying is valid>>>>. My biggest issue is his false teaching on stuff. So I would also ask, DaveW, along with "potato chip", where is chapter and verse? He/she wasn't wrong in asking you to provide that.

 

Edited by heartstrings

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Shootsie said, "I believe government problems ..."

The government, the IRS, of the United States did not have any problems in the prosecution of Kent Hovind. The government of the United States was correct in the prosecution of Kent Hovind as Mr. Kent Hovind knew exactly, I repeat, knew exactly, what crimes he was committing against the IRS. All of the problems that Mr. Kent Hovind had with the IRS, his wife, his family, and his time in jail was 100 % Hovind's fault. To this day, Kent Hovind is an embarrassment to the cause of the Lord Jesus and the saints. The two failed marriages are entirely Kent Hovind's fault.

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Here is a copy of the 58 count Structuring indictment on Kent Hovind:

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

v.

KENT E. HOVIND
and
JO D. HOVIND

———————————————————

THE GRAND JURY CHARGES:

COUNTS ONE THROUGH TWELVE


A. INTRODUCTION

At all times relevant to this indictment:

1. In general, employers must withhold, deposit, report, and pay federal income tax as well as Social Security and Medicare taxes from employee wages. The amount of federal income tax withheld is based on an employee’s martial status and the withholding allowances as reported by the employee to the employer on the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) Form W-4. Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) taxes provide a federal system of old age, survivors, disability, (Social Security tax) and hospital insurance (Medicare tax). Employers are required to withhold FICA taxes from employee’s wages and pay a matching amount of these taxes. During the times relevant to this indictment, the employee tax rate for Social Security was 6.2% of the employees’ gross wages which was withheld from the employees’ wages, and the employer tax rate was also 6.2% (12.4% total). The employee tax rate for Medicare was 1.45% of the employees’ gross wages, which was withheld form the employees’ wages and the employer tax rate for Medicare was also 1.45% (2.9% total). Employers were required to deposit federal income tax withheld along with FICA taxes by submitting quarterly payments to the IRS. Each quarter, all employers who paid wages subject to federal income tax withholding and FICA taxes were required to file Form 941, Employer’s Quarterly Federal Tax Return, by the last day of the month that follows the end of the quarter. This return reported the among of federal income tax and FICA tax withheld from employee wages as well as the employer’s share of FICA tax due and owing.

2. KENT E. HOVIND owned and operated “Creation Science Evangelism Enterprises/Ministry” (“CSE”), located in Pensacola, Florida. As part of CSE, KENT E. HOVIND operated “Dinosaur Adventure Land,” a children’s theme park on 5800 North Palafox Street in Pensacola, Florida which includes rides, a museum and science center. In addition KENT E. HOVIND, through CSE sold literature, videos, CDs, and other materials, and provided lecture services and live debates for a fee.

3. KENT E. HOVIND employed or caused to be employed salaried and hourly-wage workers at CSE and the various related business entities he controlled (hereafter referenced collectively as “CSE”).

4. As the owner/operator of CSE and its related entities, KENT E. HOVIND was responsible for the preparation of employee wages and withholding of federal income tax and FICA tax from employees’ bi-weekly paychecks. KENT E. HOVIND was likewise responsible for paying federal income tax and FICA tax withheld to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and filing the appropriate IRS Forms 941, Employer’s Quarterly Tax Returns, for SE, reporting amounts withheld and the employer’s share of the FICA tax to the IRS.

5. KENT E. HOVIND failed to obtain W-4 information from CSE employees and failed to withhold taxes from employee wages.

6. KENT E. HOVIND failed to file IRS Forms 941, Employer’s Quarterly Tax Returns, reporting federal income tax FICA tax from employee wages to the IRS.

7. When employers failed to withhold taxes from employee wages, the IRS calculated the income tax withholding rate, and thus income taxes due and owing at 20%.

 

B. CHARGE

That on or about the dates specified below, in the Northern District of Florida, the defendant,

KENT E. HOVIND

a resident of Pensacola, Florida, who owned and operated CSE in Pensacola, Florida and as such, was the person responsible for collecting and paying over federal income tax and FICA tax for CSE, and who, during the quarters of the tax years specified below, did willfully fail to deduct, collect, truthfully account for and pay over to the IRS federal income tax and FICA tax from the total taxable wages of CSE employees which were due and owing to the United States of America, in the approximate amounts enumerated below, by failing to file the appropriate IRS Form 941, Employer’s Quarterly Federal Tax Return for CSE and on the due dates, and failing to withhold and pay federal income tax and FICA tax to the IRS.

COUNT QUARTER ENDING DUE DATE OF RETURN TAX DUE AND OWING
ONE March 31, 2001 April 30, 2001 $29,400
TWO June 30, 2001 July 31, 2001 $33,757
THREE September 30, 2001 October 31, 2001 $37, 482
FOUR December 31, 2001 January 31, 2001 $31, 987
FIVE March 31, 2002 April 30, 2002 $40, 889
SIX June 30, 2002 July 31, 2002 $40, 889
SEVEN September 30, 2002 October 31, 2002 $40, 889
EIGHT December 31, 2002 January 31, 2003 $40, 889
NINE March 31, 2003 April 30, 2003 $36,463
TEN June 30, 2003 July 31, 2003 $44,967
ELEVEN September 30, 2003 October 31, 2003 $46,653
TWELVE December 31, 2003 January 31, 2004 $49,553

All in violation of Title 26 United States Code, Section 7202.

COUNTS THIRTEEN THROUGH FIFTY-SEVEN

That in the dates specified below, in the Northern District of Florida, the defendants,

KENT E. HOVIND
and
JO D. HOVIND

knowingly and for the purpose of evading reporting requirements of Section 5313(a) of Title 31, United States Code, and the regulations promulgated thereunder, structured, assisted in structuring, and caused to be structured the following transactions, each transaction being a cash withdrawal from AmSouth Bank, a domestic federally-insured financial institution:

COUNT DATE OF CHECK AMOUNT WITHDRAWN
THIRTEEN July 20, 2001 $9,500
FOURTEEN July 23, 2001 $9,500
FIFTHTEEN July 26, 2001 $9,500
SIXTEEN August 2, 2001 $9,500
SEVENTEEN August 10, 2001 $9,500
EIGHTEEN August 23, 2001 $9,500
NINETEEN August 31, 2001 $9,500
TWENTY September 7, 2001 $9,500
TWENTY-ONE September 11, 2001 $9,500
TWENTY-TWO September 18, 2001 $9,500
TWENTY-THREE September 19, 2001 $9,500
TWENTY-FOUR September 27, 2001 $9,500
TWENTY-FIVE October 04, 2001 $9,500
TWENTY-SIX October 10, 2001 $9,500
TWENTY-SEVEN October 19, 2001 $9,500
TWENTY-EIGHT October 23, 2001 $9,600
TWENTY-NINE November 2, 2001 $9,600
THIRTY November 7, 2001 $9,600
THIRTY-ONE November 19, 2001 $9,600
THIRTY-TWO November 28, 2001 $9,600
THIRTY-THREE December 5, 2001 $9,600
THIRTY-FOUR December 11, 2001 $9,600
THIRTY-FIVE December 28, 2001 $9,600
THIRTY-SIX December 31, 2001 $9,600
THIRTY-SEVEN January 11, 2002 $9,600
THIRTY-EIGHT January 18, 2002 $9,600
THIRTY-NINE January 22, 2002 $9,600
FORTY February 2, 2002 $9,600
FORTY-ONE February 13, 2002 $9,600
FORTY-TWO February 20, 2002 $9,600
FORTY-THREE February 26, 2002 $9,600
FORTY-FOUR March 6, 2002 $9,600
FORTY-FIVE March 8, 2002 $9,600
FORTY-SIX March 11, 2002 $9,600
FORTY-SEVEN March 25, 2002 $9,600
FORTY-EIGHT April 19, 2002 $9,600
FORTY-NINE May 10, 2002 $9,600
FIFTY June 13, 2002 $9,600
FIFTY-ONE July 1, 2002 $9,600
FIFTY-TWO July 17, 2002 $9,600
FIFTY-THREE July 22, 2002 $9,600
FIFTY-FOUR July 29, 2002 $9,600
FIFTY-FIVE August 2, 2002 $9,600
FIFTY-SIX August 6, 2002 $9,600
FIFTY-SEVEN August 9, 2002 $9,600

All in violation of Title 31, United States Code, Sections 5324(a)(3) and 5324(d), Title 31, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 103.11, and Title United States Code, Section 2.

COUNT FIFTY-EIGHT

1. Part A of Counts One through Twelve is hereby realleged as if fully set forth herein.

2. That between in or about March 1996 up to and including the dates of the return of this indictment, in the Northern District of Florida, the defendant,

KENT E. HOVIND,

did corruptly endeavor to obstruct and impede the due administration of the internal revenue laws by acts which include the following:

a. Filing a petition for bankruptcy, and falsely listing the IRS as his only creditor, for the sole purpose of discharging this debt and forcing the IRS to release seized property;

b. Filing a false and frivolous lawsuit against the IRS in which he demanded damages for criminal trespass and other false allegations during the IRS execution of a lawful court-issued search warrant;

c. Filing a complaint for a preliminary injunction against an investigation IRS special agent and the Commissioner of the IRS;

d. Making threats of harm to those investigating him and to those who may consider cooperating with their investigation;

e. Filing a false complaint against investigating IRS agents with the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration;

f. Filing a criminal complaint against investigating IRS special agents falsely alleging, among other things, false arrest, false imprisonment, excessive use of force, and theft or property;

g. Destroying records; and,

h. Paying his employees in cash and labeling them “missionaries” rather than employees to avoid payroll tax and Federal Insurance Contributions Act requirements.

All in violation of Title, United States Code, Section 7212(a).

CRIMINAL FORFEITURE

1. The allegations contained in Counts Thirteen through Fifty-Seven of this Indictment are hereby realleged and incorporated by reference for the purpose of alleging forfeitures to the United States.

2. Upon convictions of any of the violations alleged in Counts Thirteen through Fifty-Seven of this Indictment, the defendants,

KENT E. HOVIND
and
JO D. HOVIND,

Shall forfeit to the United States, pursuant to Title, United States Code, Section 982(a)(1) and Title 31, United States Code, Section 5317(c), any and all property, real and personal, involved in the offense alleged in Counts Thirteen through Fifty-Seven and any property traceable thereto.

3. If any of the property described above as being subject to forfeiture, as a result of any act or omission of the defendants:

a. cannot be located upon the exercise of due diligence;

b. has been transferred or sold to, or deposited with, a third person;

c. has been placed beyond the jurisdiction of the Court; and,

d. has been substantially diminished in value; or has been commingled with other property which cannot be subdivided without difficulty; it is the intent of the United States pursuant to Title 18, United States Code, Section 982(b)(1) and Title, United States Code Section 5317(c)(1)(B), to seek forfeiture of any other property of said defendants up to the value of the above-described property.

All in violation of Title 18 United States Code, Section 982(a)(1) and Title 31, Untied States Code, Section 5217(c).

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22 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

I already know about the court case.  I said you don't understand what you're talking about.  Links and cut-and-pastes don't show you understand.  In fact, just the opposite, you rely on a link and pasting because you don't understand it yourself.  I stand by what I said in my first reply, and you've show no evidence of understanding what I've said and therefore you have no understanding of Hovind's conviction. You just want to use the conviction to bash the man, without understanding it.

The material that I posted is an official court document. In November 2006 Kent Hovind was convicted on the complete 58 count indictment and in January 2007 Kent Hovind was sentenced to 10 years in Federal prison. I am not bashing Kent Hovind I am presently concrete facts that you do not agree with.

You are the one who does not understand what it was all about. Besides deliberately breaking the laws of the United States, Kent Hovind caused shame and reproach to the name of the Lord Jesus in other matters as  I clearly brought out in my March 11, 2015 posting which you ignored. In fact, you ignore any facts presented and twist what all is said in these studies. You are the one who is in ignorance of spiritual sins of Kent Hovind. In fact the spiritual sins of Kent Hovind are far worse than the actual crimes that he committed and was in prison for and  will be dealt at the Judgment Seat of Christ. 

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Just now, Shoostie said:

I'm familiar with the court document, you're not. Even if you read it, you've shown no understanding of it.  You can paste it here as many times as you like, you still wouldn't have shown any understanding of it.  

 

The official court documents stands on its own merit, facts of the case and is perfectly understandable.

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4 hours ago, Shoostie said:

All you've done is praise the conviction and point to some documents.  What you have not done is show any understanding of the case, nor any understanding of what I've said about the case. Unfortunately,  I believe it, because that's all some people can do.

All he has done is provide evidence, similar to what I did in the other thread when I posted every Bible verse that proves you wrong, but you seem to value your own opinion over any kind of evidence.

And you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of introducing yourself properly in the intro section. 

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16 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

He doesn't understand that the charges were purely statutory.  And, he probably doesn't understand what "purely statutory" means.  He condemns Hovind for fighting for religious freedom.  He's only delighted to see a Christian persecuted.  

 

 

Purely statutory......

statutory
/ˈstatʃʊt(ə)ri,ˈstatjʊt(ə)ri/
adjective
  1. required, permitted, or enacted by statute.

Oh you mean purely about a law made by government?

Yep it is a pure legal matter. He broke the law, and he paid for it.

In this matter Hovind was not fighting for religious freedom - he was fighting to not pay taxes - it was a money issue plain and simple.

And Alan would not be happy to see any Christian persecuted.

This is the verse that applies to his case:

1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

 

 

 

And you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself in the intro section, which is the standard practice of false teachers who come here to cause trouble.

Edited by DaveW

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2 hours ago, Shoostie said:

He doesn't understand that the charges were purely statutory.  And, he probably doesn't understand what "purely statutory" means.  He condemns Hovind for fighting for religious freedom.  He's only delighted to see a Christian persecuted.  

 

 

I understand the purely 'statutory' laws of the United States that Kent Hovind knowingly, and deliberately, broke.

If you would have read carefully my March 11, 2015 post that you ignored, you would have understood that the most serious of Hovind's sins was not against the laws of the United States, but against the Holiness and Righteous commands as set forth in the scriptures. Kent Hovind miss-used the office of a minister of God, miss-used the leadership of the husband, was not faithful in the work of God, was a liar, a deceiver, and was not blameless in the sight of God nor in the sight of man.

Kent Hovind was not, repeat, was not, fighting for religious freedom in my eyes. In my eyes Kent Hovind was fighting against the laws of the United States. Whether or not we agree with those laws is a separate debate, but, as long as the tax laws, and other laws Kent is fighting against, is on the books of the laws of the United States of America than he must obey them.

If Kent Hovind is a 'sovereign' citizen, and does not want to get a 'Wedding Certificate' and wants to destroy the blessings of God that God has bestowed us in the United States than it is my hope that he leaves the United States and finds some other country to spew out his venomous hatred towards the United States. 

For those on this board who know me personally, they understand that I was a firm follower of Kent Hovind before he lied, deceived, started to speak against the United States, and changed his doctrinal beliefs concerning prophetic doctrine.

I have seen other Christians, in communist China, persecuted by a totalitarian government. And, in small way, have  personally experienced  persecution in China. So, in my heart, it pains me to see, or even hear, a Christian being persecuted by a Government official. But, in my understanding, and I have studied the issue, Kent Hovind is the cause of his legal and family problems and is not suffering for the cause of Christ nor religious freedom.

Edited by Alan
added 'commands'

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32 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

You also have no clue what "purely statutory" means.  Not one iota of understanding.

Oh so the dictionary quote is wrong?

So now, the Bible is wrong, my experience is wrong, God is wrong, and the dictionary is wrong, but you are right because you say so.

 

And you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of introducing yourself properly in the intro section, just the way that every false teacher who has come to this site has refused to do for the past couple of years.

23 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

You still appear completely unaware of the nature of the charges against Hovind, as you can never talk about any of them specifically.  You just throw around vague and unsupported accusations against him, as if you blindly believe the beast that has persecuted him.   What lies did he tell?

I don't agree with you that he deliberately broke the law.  I don't think he knew much about the law before the fact. And, what little he thought he knew, he thought the Constitution was on his side.  

 

 

Unsupported accusations......

You really are unbelievable. He supported everything with official documents.

You have supported nothing (in any discussion on this board by the way), and you whole argument appears to based on "I'm right and you're wrong" and nothing else.

 

 

And you still refuse to give this board the basic courtesy of a proper introduction in the intro section, just like every other event false teacher...

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I've been sitting back admiring the posts.

We've had some doozies on this board, but I think Shoostie is the top doozie...

He pulled the moderator card, but when confronted with his error...crickets were chirping.

He pulled the "no evidence" card when evidence was given...countless times.

He pulled the "I'm right; you're wrong" card...countless times...but provided no evidence as to why he is/was right other than the "I said so" card.

He ignored "the COMMONWEALTH of Israel" quote from DaveW...which makes me wonder if he's familiar with its meaning.

He ignores the mountain of evidence against Hovind that's available from Alan and elsewhere.

He ignores...well, we get the picture.

He's right...because he's right. He doesn't have to prove it; we just have to accept it.

Perhaps he's a good candidate for my "Nonsense Church" based on Colossians 2:21?

Sorry to be so gruff...but Shoostie is a doozie...

Carry on...

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I will give one lie at this time. Once we discussed this lie we can go onto the next. If you refuse to acknowledge this lie, or not be honest, nor sincere, in your answer, than I will decide what to do next. Based on your previous avoidance of telling the truth, nor acknowledged the truth that was presented, I need to take some precautions in dealing with you.

In my March 11, 2019 post I stated, "But, he knowingly failed to pay taxes on his employees at his creation museum at Pensacola, and called his employees, students from PCC, 'missionaries.'

The employees at that “Creation Science Evangelism Enterprises" hereafter known as 'CSE 'were not missionaries; most of them were students and all of them did work as an employee in a business. The CSE was a business and the IRS, and the Pensacola Court,  rightly treated it as a business.

Also, in my September 16, 2019 posting in this thread, the Pensacola Court document, 'Section  H,' Kent Hovind told the lie that the employees were missionaries to the Federal authorities and was included in the indictment. Below is the copy Section H in the indictment:

KENT E. HOVIND,

did corruptly endeavor to obstruct and impede the due administration of the internal revenue laws by acts which include the following:

a. Filing a petition for bankruptcy, and falsely listing the IRS as his only creditor, for the sole purpose of discharging this debt and forcing the IRS to release seized property;

b. Filing a false and frivolous lawsuit against the IRS in which he demanded damages for criminal trespass and other false allegations during the IRS execution of a lawful court-issued search warrant;

c. Filing a complaint for a preliminary injunction against an investigation IRS special agent and the Commissioner of the IRS;

d. Making threats of harm to those investigating him and to those who may consider cooperating with their investigation;

e. Filing a false complaint against investigating IRS agents with the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration;

f. Filing a criminal complaint against investigating IRS special agents falsely alleging, among other things, false arrest, false imprisonment, excessive use of force, and theft or property;

g. Destroying records; and,

h. Paying his employees in cash and labeling them “missionaries” rather than employees to avoid payroll tax and Federal Insurance Contributions Act requirements.

All in violation of Title, United States Code, Section 7212(a).

Again, the employees of CSE were not, repeat, missionaries. This lie is a public shame and Kent Hovind deliberately called his employees missionaries in order to avoid paying taxes.

Edited by Alan
re-phrased two sentences CES to CSE

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11 hours ago, Alan said:

For those on this board who know me personally, they understand that I was a firm follower of Kent Hovind before he lied, deceived, started to speak against the United States, and changed his doctrinal beliefs concerning prophetic doctrine.

Hovind can talk and spin his case to the point of people disregarding the evidence as frivolous: of his Federal conviction The evidence of his infidelity to both wives, the great struggle of his wife and sons trying to help him get right. I defended him as well in his federal convictions because I believed him but when I looked into the events surrounding his wife and Son Eric in trying to help him I realized he was being manipulative to his and other Christians own hurt. 
 

1 hour ago, Shoostie said:

You have no understanding of anything.

Shoostie, you are only hurting yourself and showing your ignorance by believing the spin that Kent Hovind has spoon fed you. I still like Kent but he needs help.

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As I have mentioned before; I have been to Mr. Hovind's creation museum, in Pensacola, at which time I was deeply disturbed to see images of the "Loch Ness Monster", "Mokele Mbembe" and other dubious crypto stuff as "proofs" for whatever it was he was trying to prove. When one is trying to preach Truth, that's just not a good idea, to say the least. I also, there, heard with my own ears Mr. Hovind complaining about "taxes". Mr. Hovind needs to repent and get his act together, like all of us do.

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(Deleted photo)

Um, heartstrings, I think you may have put this in the wrong thread? Can you delete it and move it to the appropriate forum? (or better yet, let's let this topic die a quick death. It's incredibly distasteful). 🙂

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Enough. Shoostie, you will treat the other members of this board with respect. 

 

Regarding the original subject, I have to say that while I don't agree with all Hovind's ideas (particularly the comet/ice age one), I absolutely believe that Mokele Mbembe and the Loch Ness Monster are/were real creatures. (They could both be extinct by now.)  There are too many solid historical accounts of water monsters in the lochs for there to have been nothing there.  I also like the accounts of pterodactyls nesting in an old Welsh castle, and migrating inland for storms, or of the thunderbirds/pterodactyls on the Pacific coast and American Southwest. The book 'After the Flood', although more focused on genealogy than dragon sightings, has some incredible accounts gleaned from medieval records.

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20 minutes ago, Salyan said:

Um, heartstrings, I think you may have put this in the wrong thread? Can you delete it and move it to the appropriate forum? (or better yet, let's let this topic die a quick death. It's incredibly distasteful). 🙂

I deleted it but it's still in here....  😜

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