Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

Recommended Posts

  • Members
7 hours ago, John Young said:

It seems to me his Mid-trib position came about as a result of his prison ordeal. Some Pre-trib believers hold to the false idea that they and "the church" won't endure ANY tribulation and then when they do endure persecution for the cause of Christ they try to find a reason for it and flip to the other extreme, believing Israel's tribulation is actually for them and "the church". In so doing they grasp at historically Catholic doctrines to formulate their own.

I never heard of a "Pre-trib" believer say that they or the church would never endure any tribulation. It goes with the territory. 

1 hour ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Does anyone know of a good Creation ministry other than the first three on my list in my previous post? 

Not a ministry per se but here's some decent material:

http://evolutionfacts.com/index.htm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
21 minutes ago, fastjav390 said:

I never heard of a "Pre-trib" believer say that they or the church would never endure any tribulation. It goes with the territory. 

Not a ministry per se but here's some decent material:

http://evolutionfacts.com/index.htm

There are mid and post tribbers who use verses speaking of the general tribulation that is part of everyday life, and they use that to "prove" that Christians will go through THE Tribulation.

Thanks for the link.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

First let me say, I'm not offended by any posts for or against Hovind or his ministry or the way he conducts himself. I can certainly see a bit more of, I don't know, an anger in the way he speaks of atheists and such. We should do what we can as lovingly as we can. So no need to clarify anything-we are where we are.

That being said, I saw Hovind a couple times before he went to prison, kept up with his activities and adventures, as it were, while behind bars, and know somewhat of the court case against him. I believe he was unfairly targeted and his triial was a mess. I have also seen many people who have said that his ministry helped bring them to Christ, and turned many away from evolution and toward Christ. We've used his old videos many times over and I still learn things from it. 

Since he came out of prison, he has had a rough row to hoe-his wife left him, his son took his entire ministry and property from him and separated from him, both apparently at the behest of a lawyer who told them they should distance themselves from him. Familial betrayal is a difficult thing to deal with. He remarried and a lot of people have castigated him over it, but I have seen no issue with it-I don't want to argue the why's and wherefors here, it has been done before. As for his becoming a "post-tribber" (Really, post-trib/pre-wrath), well, I am too, and was before he made the switch, but again, that isue has been done to death and I don't want to use this post to start it back up.

PERSONALLY, I think in some ways he has lost his direction, somewhat. I can't blame him: ten years in federal prison can do that to a person. He was abandoned by many who supported him at the first, because, Lord forbid they should have dealing with an ex-con; too many have listened to false information about why he went to prison at the first. He lost many friends, supporters, and family when he was sent to prison, and I, to this day, believe he went to prison because of his ministry and he wasn't afraid to speak some things that are dangerous things to speak. So I see him as a Paul kind of character, who was also abandoned by many of the brethren when he was imprisoned, but like Paul, he continued to preach Christ while there.

1 hour ago, fastjav390 said:

I never heard of a "Pre-trib" believer say that they or the church would never endure any tribulation. It goes with the territory. 

 

I spoke once with a pastor who told me that he could never worship a God who would make a man of God watch as his family was put to death, and be helpless to do anything. I wondered if he had any sense od the history of Christianity. That sort of thinking does exist, but it is primarily an American idea, I think. Let them spend some time in China or the Middle East and they'll change their tune.

However, I don't believe that the persecutions we suffer today have anything to do with justifying a post-trib/pre-wrath position; I just happen to believe the Bible speaks it very clearly, and also, very gives no clear teaching to the pre-trib view. Again, it has been done a lot, we don't need to here. If someone wants to pursue it we can do so in another post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

First let me say, I'm not offended by any posts for or against Hovind or his ministry or the way he conducts himself. I can certainly see a bit more of, I don't know, an anger in the way he speaks of atheists and such. We should do what we can as lovingly as we can. So no need to clarify anything-we are where we are.

That being said, I saw Hovind a couple times before he went to prison, kept up with his activities and adventures, as it were, while behind bars, and know somewhat of the court case against him. I believe he was unfairly targeted and his triial was a mess. I have also seen many people who have said that his ministry helped bring them to Christ, and turned many away from evolution and toward Christ. We've used his old videos many times over and I still learn things from it. 

Since he came out of prison, he has had a rough row to hoe-his wife left him, his son took his entire ministry and property from him and separated from him, both apparently at the behest of a lawyer who told them they should distance themselves from him. Familial betrayal is a difficult thing to deal with. He remarried and a lot of people have castigated him over it, but I have seen no issue with it-I don't want to argue the why's and wherefors here, it has been done before. As for his becoming a "post-tribber" (Really, post-trib/pre-wrath), well, I am too, and was before he made the switch, but again, that isue has been done to death and I don't want to use this post to start it back up.

PERSONALLY, I think in some ways he has lost his direction, somewhat. I can't blame him: ten years in federal prison can do that to a person. He was abandoned by many who supported him at the first, because, Lord forbid they should have dealing with an ex-con; too many have listened to false information about why he went to prison at the first. He lost many friends, supporters, and family when he was sent to prison, and I, to this day, believe he went to prison because of his ministry and he wasn't afraid to speak some things that are dangerous things to speak. So I see him as a Paul kind of character, who was also abandoned by many of the brethren when he was imprisoned, but like Paul, he continued to preach Christ while there.

I spoke once with a pastor who told me that he could never worship a God who would make a man of God watch as his family was put to death, and be helpless to do anything. I wondered if he had any sense od the history of Christianity. That sort of thinking does exist, but it is primarily an American idea, I think. Let them spend some time in China or the Middle East and they'll change their tune.

However, I don't believe that the persecutions we suffer today have anything to do with justifying a post-trib/pre-wrath position; I just happen to believe the Bible speaks it very clearly, and also, very gives no clear teaching to the pre-trib view. Again, it has been done a lot, we don't need to here. If someone wants to pursue it we can do so in another post.

OK, I'm sure they're out there but I've never run into one. I did run into a charismatic book store owner (nice guy but a little loonie) who told me that he was never sad one time in his whole life. I thought to myself,  "If I know anything about scripture your sad day is coming." Sure enough, the American Indians who owned the land his store was located on told him he had to go. He was very depressed after that.

I also agree that Hovind has had a rough time of it. Way more than he ever deserved, IMO. As far as him getting remarried, personally I don't care. It wouldn't sway me one way or the other about what he says. Also, I don't like the way the whole thing went down with Becky Horton of Pensacola Bible College snitching on him about not paying employee taxes. I've heard some people close to the case from the Pensacola area say Mrs. Horton wanted his property that was adjacent to the college and he wouldn't sell out to her so it was a land grab from a moral high ground.

2 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

There are mid and post tribbers who use verses speaking of the general tribulation that is part of everyday life, and they use that to "prove" that Christians will go through THE Tribulation.

Thanks for the link.

Yeah, I'm not quite sure if John Young was referring to this or not.

Edited by fastjav390
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
23 minutes ago, fastjav390 said:

OK, I'm sure they're out there but I've never run into one. I did run into a charismatic book store owner (nice guy but a little loonie) who told me that he was never sad one time in his whole life. I thought to myself,  "If I know anything about scripture your sad day is coming." Sure enough, the American Indians who owned the land his store was located on told him he had to go. He was very depressed after that.

I also agree that Hovind has had a rough time of it. Way more than he ever deserved, IMO. As far as him getting remarried, personally I don't care. It wouldn't sway me one way or the other about what he says. Also, I don't like the way the whole thing went down with Becky Horton of Pensacola Bible College snitching on him about not paying employee taxes. I've heard some people close to the case from the Pensacola area say Mrs. Horton wanted his property that was adjacent to the college and he wouldn't sell out to her so it was a land grab from a moral high ground.

Yeah, I'm not quite sure if John Young was referring to this or not.

Thank you for that verification. I had heard that someone at that organization had done that. The funny thing was, he DID pay his taxes and was aquitted on all the tax evasion charges. This is where the 'fake news' aspect came in and really hurt him: so many people trumpeted the 'fact' that he went to prison for tax evasion, when in reality, he went for the non-crime of 'structuring', which itself is not a crime, but an indication there might be a crime. BAsically, (for those not in the know), Structuring is when someone or an organization often withdraws a large amount of cash, close to, but under $10,000, (I think that's the amount). This leads the IRS to investigate to see if you're doing it to not pay taxes, normally for money-laundering purposes, mob crime, basically. He did it because it covered his work expenses and staff, which he paid all in cash. BUT, he wasn't accused of, or found guilty of, money laundering, or not paying his taxes, he was found guilty of structuring...which isn't a crime.  And consider, the judge stated that what he did was worse than child molestation, in the courtroom. There were some real issues going on there.

It's like, going to court and being accused of wearing a black shoe and a red shoe at the same time. They produce evidence, pictures, witnessess, all verifying the fact that he was, and then, the jury finding him guilty of wearing a black and a red shoe, and then sentencing him to prison for it...with no one questioning whether it was actually a crime to do that. This is why he is so disillusioned with they system and wanting to see it changed. He literally went to prison for no crime. And then, as he was about due to be freed, they tried to put him away longer, for contempt of court, after he filed to keep his last properties from being taken and sold, something completely legal, which the court decided they didn't like. It sat for a while and he even went to court, but finally it was dropped. Had they succeded, he potentially could have gone to prison for life, since there is no limit in federal court for that crime.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
5 hours ago, DaveW said:

We don't see ministries in the Bible working outside (local) church authority.

If a ministry today is not overseen by a particular church it is not following Bible example and it will eventually go off the rails, assuming it was on the rails in the first place.

They are or become a law unto themselves.

(Local) church authority keeps that in check while the church involved stays biblical.

This is not specific to this case but to all "para-church" organisations.

Scripture for this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
1 hour ago, fastjav390 said:

Scripture for this?

Ummm - you would only have to find a single instance where a ministry was done WITHOUT a (local) church being behind it.......

I sort of mentioned that in the first sentence:

6 hours ago, DaveW said:

We don't see ministries in the Bible working outside (local) church authority.

 

If I am wrong, you should be able to come up with an easy example.... the burden is to find something contrary to my statement in the Bible.

We do not find a command for it, but for instance, Paul started many churches, and he went out under the authority of the church at Antioch.

Authority is evident.

For that matter, I don't see ANY MINISTRY other than (local) churches being started in the Bible.

So there you are - although I have not presented "a scripture" to support it, I have presented a Bible character for you to study.

Since mine is a statement of "Exclusion" so to speak, if I am wrong you should be able to present any number of examples that show a ministry started outside a (local) church and without the authority of a(local) church behind it. But one would be enough.

____________________________________________________________________________________

I have just re-read this and I think it could be perceived as me being a little "short" with my response.

Please let me assure you that I do not intend for it to sound mean, short, or sarcastic in any way - but I am not sure how to re-word it at this stage. 

Sorry if it does come across that way, but it is not intentional..........

Edited by DaveW
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Speaking for myself I don't usually get into it with atheists and evolution was simply an argument to justify slavery at that time period and continued on as a stubborn refusal to treat blacks as humans.  It continues on to day in all the KKK type web sites. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
  • Members
On 3/7/2017 at 10:57 PM, DaveW said:

Ummm - you would only have to find a single instance where a ministry was done WITHOUT a (local) church being behind it.......

I sort of mentioned that in the first sentence:

If I am wrong, you should be able to come up with an easy example.... the burden is to find something contrary to my statement in the Bible.

We do not find a command for it, but for instance, Paul started many churches, and he went out under the authority of the church at Antioch.

Authority is evident.

For that matter, I don't see ANY MINISTRY other than (local) churches being started in the Bible.

So there you are - although I have not presented "a scripture" to support it, I have presented a Bible character for you to study.

Since mine is a statement of "Exclusion" so to speak, if I am wrong you should be able to present any number of examples that show a ministry started outside a (local) church and without the authority of a(local) church behind it. But one would be enough.

____________________________________________________________________________________

I have just re-read this and I think it could be perceived as me being a little "short" with my response.

Please let me assure you that I do not intend for it to sound mean, short, or sarcastic in any way - but I am not sure how to re-word it at this stage. 

Sorry if it does come across that way, but it is not intentional..........

John the Baptist had a ministry. Jesus had a ministry and he said this...

Luke 9

49And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. 50And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Kent Hovind claims to be a preacher and, no doubt he must have been "ordained" somewhere. But my biggest issue with Mr. Hovind is not "local church authority" which I am <<<<NOT denying is valid>>>>. My biggest issue is his false teaching on stuff. So I would also ask, DaveW, along with "potato chip", where is chapter and verse? He/she wasn't wrong in asking you to provide that.

 

Edited by heartstrings
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...
  • Members

Shootsie said, "I believe government problems ..."

The government, the IRS, of the United States did not have any problems in the prosecution of Kent Hovind. The government of the United States was correct in the prosecution of Kent Hovind as Mr. Kent Hovind knew exactly, I repeat, knew exactly, what crimes he was committing against the IRS. All of the problems that Mr. Kent Hovind had with the IRS, his wife, his family, and his time in jail was 100 % Hovind's fault. To this day, Kent Hovind is an embarrassment to the cause of the Lord Jesus and the saints. The two failed marriages are entirely Kent Hovind's fault.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...