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Brother Stafford

Hovind Hypocrisy

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I used to admire Kent Hovind.  A great deal of his work on Creation vs Evolution is very sound and helpful.    However, his integrity was called into question, for me, when he was sent to prison.  When he was released, he immediately and obsessively began the process of re-starting his Dinosaur Adventure Land.  By watching his daily videos, more and more of his quirkiness in conspiracy theories were becoming apparent.  His wife divorced him, he remarried a divorced woman (claiming God told him to) and has recommended others do the same

He obsesses about his court case and Dinosaur Adventure Land and he openly and unapologetically antagonizes and ridicules atheists and Theistic Evolution proponents.  He claims that the whole purpose for DAL is to share the Gospel with people, but his constant public belittling of others seems to suggest otherwise.  I have had a growing feeling that his real focus is on the business and success of DAL and book sales.

I just received a copy of his book, "The Kennel" which I ordered from him.  With few exceptions, I use fake names when I order things online in order to maintain as much anonymity as possible and I did so when I ordered The Kennel.  I mention this because he has no idea who I am or what my beliefs are.  Included with the book, was a "newsletter."  See if you can spot the things with which I take issue:

hovind-cse-letter.jpg

He has made it his priority to address the lost as "morons" in the very first sentence.  If I was skeptical or seeking, this would certainly not make me feel comfortable to contact him to ask him questions.

He then goes on to promote his Creation Science Evangelism ministry.

Next up, he boasts about upsetting atheists and evolutionists, calling it "hilarious."  A curious method of attempting to convince the lost of their error and to share the Gospel with them.

He spends the rest of the letter promoting DAL, asking for volunteers, asking for money, boasting about his videos and calling attention to his legal battle.

For someone who supposedly has such an undying passion for sharing the Gospel, he dedicates a total of five words, at the end of the letter, to evangelism: "Go win someone to Jesus!"  However, he made sure to spend some time to clarify his view on the post-trib/pre-trib issue and to promote his book on end times.

I spoke to him on the phone once and asked him why he never talks about going out soul-winning.  He told me that he tried it years ago and that it just doesn't work.  He said it's much easier and, he believes, much more effective, to have an attraction where they can "come to you and you can deal with them on your own turf."

He enthusiastically endorses the book, "The Shack" (you know, the book that portrays God as a black woman who doesn't need to punish sin) while promoting his suggestion to "eat the meat and spit out the bones."  What happened to, "(Matthew 16:6) "...Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees." To encourage people, especially the lost or new Christians, to read literature that mixes atrocious heresies with small bits of truth, and to tell them to take what's good and to leave the bad, is dangerous and unbiblical.

While Hovind has some accurate and helpful information on Creationism, he surrounds himself with and promotes enough poison that I feel the need to tell people to avoid him completely.

Edited by Brother Stafford

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That is about the most unprofessional newsletter I've ever read. It's pretty hypocritical to accuse other organizations of utilizing interns as slave labor and then ask for free laborers yourself. (It'd also be a good idea not to insult your intended helpers by calling grown women 'girls'.)

He actually endorses The Shack now? Wow.

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Hovind was good for entertaining the sheep. Don't get me wrong, a lot of his information is good; however, having seen him twice in two churches and having watched several of his videos in the past, my take-away from it was that he was a good entertainer for people who already believed in Creationism, but he wasn't...so...good for winning people over who didn't believe. He has always had a mocking spirit about him, always had a few strange beliefs, and always had a few conspiracy quirks...which is sad, because he really does have the ability to do great things. After seeing him twice, I lost interest in his work and turned my attention toward the Institute for Creation Research for that type of information. Then after hearing about his "changes" in prison (from his own words) and watching just a few of his post-prison videos...well...this might sound petty on my part, but he lost me completely when I saw a video; in which, he was asking for donations to help pay for his wedding.

I will now leave this bus stop before I've completely thrown him under the next motor coach.

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Well...I'm still at the bus stop. Sorry...

Here's my list of resources...in the order that I would reference them for scientific information.

  1. The Institute for Creation Research
  2. Creation Ministries International
  3. Ken Ham/Answers in Genesis
  4. Carl Baugh - Creation Evidence
  5. Ludwig Von Drake
  6. Kent Hovind

 

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He's a brother, who at one time stood shoulder-to-shoulder with us in the trenches. Yes, the enemy got to him, just as he could get to any one of us one day, and Hovind is now apparently another casualty of this horrible spiritual war we all fight to the bitter end. But let us be careful lest we be guilty of calously, self-righteously putting a bullet in the head of our own wounded comrade. But for the grace of God, there stand I.

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23 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

He's a brother, who at one time stood shoulder-to-shoulder with us in the trenches. Yes, the enemy got to him, just as he could get to any one of us one day, and Hovind is now apparently another casualty of this horrible spiritual war we all fight to the bitter end. But let us be careful lest we be guilty of calously, self-righteously putting a bullet in the head of our own wounded comrade. But for the grace of God, there stand I.

If my post offended you, I apologize. Perhaps it was callous in its concept; however, I chose what I thought was a humorous way to show that I have withdrawn myself from someone who is unsound in their doctrine and in whom I have no trust. He mocks unbelievers; he also mocks believers who try to sincerely question him about his beliefs and/or changes in his beliefs. He brings shame upon the name of Christ in his approach and demeanor...he always has.  He has chosen to publicly do this.

However, I see your point. Whether he is a casualty...I'm not really sure about that. I think he has always been unsound in some areas...but that's me. He got a pass, because he was entertaining to us, offered some good information, uses the King James, and claimed to be Independent Baptist...even though he would do his shows in any type of church...including SDA churches...and that was before he was imprisoned. I look at it as he has finally publicly become what he has always been.

Still, I too, have brought shame upon the name of Christ with my poor choice of what I thought to be innocent and humorous. As I said in another thread, I often find my foot in my mouth instead of on the floor.

I pray the Lord will forgive me, I pray you will forgive me, I pray any readers will forgive me, and I pray Hovind will forgive me.

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I hope it goes without saying that I know that I am just as much of a sinner, if not more so, than Hovind.  I make no claim that what used to be my food now shares olfactorous similarities with roses.  The difference is that I am willing to acknowledge the reality that I am often wrong, perhaps even usually wrong, about many things of God and I am willing to be rebuked and corrected and I welcome it.  Hovind teaches many dangerous things and refuses correction.  We are told to be warn others of people like this and to be separate from them.

It is difficult to address such things without passion because he, and teachers like him, make our job more difficult.  I have made headway with friends in certain areas, only to find out that they discovered Hovind's teaching on the subjects and it reaffirms their convictions in false teachings.  It feels like building a house of cards and then along comes Hovind to knock it down.

I do pray that the Holy Ghost will convict him and that he will stop teaching his heresies, but I warn and separate as well.

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His divorce, subsequent remarriage nary a few months later, and then recently leading "church services" at the DAL over youtube was the thing that did it for me in deciding to part ways with him and his ministry. I'm not going to stand in condemnation of him and I'll let him "plow his row" for Christ and I'll "plow my row" for Christ, as he likes to say, but I'm not going to help him to do it by defending, promoting or participating in his ministry anymore.

Edited by John Young

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He has changed his position of eschatology. He believes now the church will go through the Great Tribulation. Actually, at times it sounds like he believes it's already going on. This ties into his egomania in that he thinks because he was in jail that was a sign that the "beginning of sorrows" was taken place (Rev. 2:10). 

He came to my church one time to speak for a whole week, at the local college to. He can come across as very arrogant and dismissive in his lectures.

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It seems to me his Mid-trib position came about as a result of his prison ordeal. Some Pre-trib believers hold to the false idea that they and "the church" won't endure ANY tribulation and then when they do endure persecution for the cause of Christ they try to find a reason for it and flip to the other extreme, believing Israel's tribulation is actually for them and "the church". In so doing they grasp at historically Catholic doctrines to formulate their own.

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40 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Does anyone know of a good Creation ministry other than the first three on my list in my previous post? 

I'm not really a fan of "Creation ministries" anymore.  Every one that I know of has made it the primary focus and has spend millions of dollars on, what I believe to be, unnecessary buildings, staff or gimmicks.  I don't see any biblical precedent for a creation ministry.  We are not called to go forth and disprove evolution or even to attempt prove the existence of God; scripture just assumes it.  We are called to spread the Gospel.  Giant models of Noah's ark or an infinite number of books refuting evolutionism or even young earth creationism, are a waste of time, money and other resources, in my opinion.

I used to be very into that kind of thing, as well as very into apologetics.  I used to think, "If I can just make the right argument, then they'll finally understand." What I have found is that the only thing that has ever caught the attention of anyone with whom I have spoken, has been God's word.  When you show people irrefutable truths, if it conflicts with their world view, they will defiantly (and usually angrily and awkwardly) reject it outright; even when you can tell that they know they are wrong.  They do that with scripture as well, but scripture is the only thing that I have witnessed having any awakening affect on them.

When getting into a creation vs evolution discussion with someone, first ask them, "If I can give you compelling evidence that support my views, do you think you would change your mind?"  You will find that, more often than not, people will usually say, "No, probably not."  That is why I try to stay focused on scripture.

When focusing on gimmicks or off-the-cuff logical debate, it is your logic against theirs, and they know that.  When you focus on scripture, and especially when you stand next to them and read with them from an open King James Bible, they can still disagree and argue, but they are usually aware that it is not just your logic against theirs any longer, but rather, their logic against God's word.

(Romans 10:13-17) "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. {14} How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? {15} And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! {16} But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? {17} So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Edited by Brother Stafford

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7 hours ago, John Young said:

It seems to me his Mid-trib position came about as a result of his prison ordeal. Some Pre-trib believers hold to the false idea that they and "the church" won't endure ANY tribulation and then when they do endure persecution for the cause of Christ they try to find a reason for it and flip to the other extreme, believing Israel's tribulation is actually for them and "the church". In so doing they grasp at historically Catholic doctrines to formulate their own.

I never heard of a "Pre-trib" believer say that they or the church would never endure any tribulation. It goes with the territory. 

1 hour ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Does anyone know of a good Creation ministry other than the first three on my list in my previous post? 

Not a ministry per se but here's some decent material:

http://evolutionfacts.com/index.htm

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21 minutes ago, fastjav390 said:

I never heard of a "Pre-trib" believer say that they or the church would never endure any tribulation. It goes with the territory. 

Not a ministry per se but here's some decent material:

http://evolutionfacts.com/index.htm

There are mid and post tribbers who use verses speaking of the general tribulation that is part of everyday life, and they use that to "prove" that Christians will go through THE Tribulation.

Thanks for the link.

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First let me say, I'm not offended by any posts for or against Hovind or his ministry or the way he conducts himself. I can certainly see a bit more of, I don't know, an anger in the way he speaks of atheists and such. We should do what we can as lovingly as we can. So no need to clarify anything-we are where we are.

That being said, I saw Hovind a couple times before he went to prison, kept up with his activities and adventures, as it were, while behind bars, and know somewhat of the court case against him. I believe he was unfairly targeted and his triial was a mess. I have also seen many people who have said that his ministry helped bring them to Christ, and turned many away from evolution and toward Christ. We've used his old videos many times over and I still learn things from it. 

Since he came out of prison, he has had a rough row to hoe-his wife left him, his son took his entire ministry and property from him and separated from him, both apparently at the behest of a lawyer who told them they should distance themselves from him. Familial betrayal is a difficult thing to deal with. He remarried and a lot of people have castigated him over it, but I have seen no issue with it-I don't want to argue the why's and wherefors here, it has been done before. As for his becoming a "post-tribber" (Really, post-trib/pre-wrath), well, I am too, and was before he made the switch, but again, that isue has been done to death and I don't want to use this post to start it back up.

PERSONALLY, I think in some ways he has lost his direction, somewhat. I can't blame him: ten years in federal prison can do that to a person. He was abandoned by many who supported him at the first, because, Lord forbid they should have dealing with an ex-con; too many have listened to false information about why he went to prison at the first. He lost many friends, supporters, and family when he was sent to prison, and I, to this day, believe he went to prison because of his ministry and he wasn't afraid to speak some things that are dangerous things to speak. So I see him as a Paul kind of character, who was also abandoned by many of the brethren when he was imprisoned, but like Paul, he continued to preach Christ while there.

1 hour ago, fastjav390 said:

I never heard of a "Pre-trib" believer say that they or the church would never endure any tribulation. It goes with the territory. 

 

I spoke once with a pastor who told me that he could never worship a God who would make a man of God watch as his family was put to death, and be helpless to do anything. I wondered if he had any sense od the history of Christianity. That sort of thinking does exist, but it is primarily an American idea, I think. Let them spend some time in China or the Middle East and they'll change their tune.

However, I don't believe that the persecutions we suffer today have anything to do with justifying a post-trib/pre-wrath position; I just happen to believe the Bible speaks it very clearly, and also, very gives no clear teaching to the pre-trib view. Again, it has been done a lot, we don't need to here. If someone wants to pursue it we can do so in another post.

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1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

First let me say, I'm not offended by any posts for or against Hovind or his ministry or the way he conducts himself. I can certainly see a bit more of, I don't know, an anger in the way he speaks of atheists and such. We should do what we can as lovingly as we can. So no need to clarify anything-we are where we are.

That being said, I saw Hovind a couple times before he went to prison, kept up with his activities and adventures, as it were, while behind bars, and know somewhat of the court case against him. I believe he was unfairly targeted and his triial was a mess. I have also seen many people who have said that his ministry helped bring them to Christ, and turned many away from evolution and toward Christ. We've used his old videos many times over and I still learn things from it. 

Since he came out of prison, he has had a rough row to hoe-his wife left him, his son took his entire ministry and property from him and separated from him, both apparently at the behest of a lawyer who told them they should distance themselves from him. Familial betrayal is a difficult thing to deal with. He remarried and a lot of people have castigated him over it, but I have seen no issue with it-I don't want to argue the why's and wherefors here, it has been done before. As for his becoming a "post-tribber" (Really, post-trib/pre-wrath), well, I am too, and was before he made the switch, but again, that isue has been done to death and I don't want to use this post to start it back up.

PERSONALLY, I think in some ways he has lost his direction, somewhat. I can't blame him: ten years in federal prison can do that to a person. He was abandoned by many who supported him at the first, because, Lord forbid they should have dealing with an ex-con; too many have listened to false information about why he went to prison at the first. He lost many friends, supporters, and family when he was sent to prison, and I, to this day, believe he went to prison because of his ministry and he wasn't afraid to speak some things that are dangerous things to speak. So I see him as a Paul kind of character, who was also abandoned by many of the brethren when he was imprisoned, but like Paul, he continued to preach Christ while there.

I spoke once with a pastor who told me that he could never worship a God who would make a man of God watch as his family was put to death, and be helpless to do anything. I wondered if he had any sense od the history of Christianity. That sort of thinking does exist, but it is primarily an American idea, I think. Let them spend some time in China or the Middle East and they'll change their tune.

However, I don't believe that the persecutions we suffer today have anything to do with justifying a post-trib/pre-wrath position; I just happen to believe the Bible speaks it very clearly, and also, very gives no clear teaching to the pre-trib view. Again, it has been done a lot, we don't need to here. If someone wants to pursue it we can do so in another post.

OK, I'm sure they're out there but I've never run into one. I did run into a charismatic book store owner (nice guy but a little loonie) who told me that he was never sad one time in his whole life. I thought to myself,  "If I know anything about scripture your sad day is coming." Sure enough, the American Indians who owned the land his store was located on told him he had to go. He was very depressed after that.

I also agree that Hovind has had a rough time of it. Way more than he ever deserved, IMO. As far as him getting remarried, personally I don't care. It wouldn't sway me one way or the other about what he says. Also, I don't like the way the whole thing went down with Becky Horton of Pensacola Bible College snitching on him about not paying employee taxes. I've heard some people close to the case from the Pensacola area say Mrs. Horton wanted his property that was adjacent to the college and he wouldn't sell out to her so it was a land grab from a moral high ground.

2 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

There are mid and post tribbers who use verses speaking of the general tribulation that is part of everyday life, and they use that to "prove" that Christians will go through THE Tribulation.

Thanks for the link.

Yeah, I'm not quite sure if John Young was referring to this or not.

Edited by fastjav390

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23 minutes ago, fastjav390 said:

OK, I'm sure they're out there but I've never run into one. I did run into a charismatic book store owner (nice guy but a little loonie) who told me that he was never sad one time in his whole life. I thought to myself,  "If I know anything about scripture your sad day is coming." Sure enough, the American Indians who owned the land his store was located on told him he had to go. He was very depressed after that.

I also agree that Hovind has had a rough time of it. Way more than he ever deserved, IMO. As far as him getting remarried, personally I don't care. It wouldn't sway me one way or the other about what he says. Also, I don't like the way the whole thing went down with Becky Horton of Pensacola Bible College snitching on him about not paying employee taxes. I've heard some people close to the case from the Pensacola area say Mrs. Horton wanted his property that was adjacent to the college and he wouldn't sell out to her so it was a land grab from a moral high ground.

Yeah, I'm not quite sure if John Young was referring to this or not.

Thank you for that verification. I had heard that someone at that organization had done that. The funny thing was, he DID pay his taxes and was aquitted on all the tax evasion charges. This is where the 'fake news' aspect came in and really hurt him: so many people trumpeted the 'fact' that he went to prison for tax evasion, when in reality, he went for the non-crime of 'structuring', which itself is not a crime, but an indication there might be a crime. BAsically, (for those not in the know), Structuring is when someone or an organization often withdraws a large amount of cash, close to, but under $10,000, (I think that's the amount). This leads the IRS to investigate to see if you're doing it to not pay taxes, normally for money-laundering purposes, mob crime, basically. He did it because it covered his work expenses and staff, which he paid all in cash. BUT, he wasn't accused of, or found guilty of, money laundering, or not paying his taxes, he was found guilty of structuring...which isn't a crime.  And consider, the judge stated that what he did was worse than child molestation, in the courtroom. There were some real issues going on there.

It's like, going to court and being accused of wearing a black shoe and a red shoe at the same time. They produce evidence, pictures, witnessess, all verifying the fact that he was, and then, the jury finding him guilty of wearing a black and a red shoe, and then sentencing him to prison for it...with no one questioning whether it was actually a crime to do that. This is why he is so disillusioned with they system and wanting to see it changed. He literally went to prison for no crime. And then, as he was about due to be freed, they tried to put him away longer, for contempt of court, after he filed to keep his last properties from being taken and sold, something completely legal, which the court decided they didn't like. It sat for a while and he even went to court, but finally it was dropped. Had they succeded, he potentially could have gone to prison for life, since there is no limit in federal court for that crime.   

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Let's not get into gossip and hearsay about Hovind's case.  I have heard and read as much as anyone else and I have my opinions, but I wasn't there, I wasn't in court and I'm not Kent Hovind.  All I said, at the beginning of my OP was that the fact that I started questioning his integrity when he went to prison, not because he went to prison.  The event caught my attention and caused me to explore him and his teachings further.

I have tried to focus on the things that can be known as a fact from his writings, his statements in his own videos and my own personal experience with him.  This is about Hovind, and his defense and promotions of his behaviors and teachings, not the IRS or the government.

As Frère du ukulélé mentioned, this isn't the thread for discussing positions on the tribulation either.

Edited by Brother Stafford

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5 hours ago, DaveW said:

We don't see ministries in the Bible working outside (local) church authority.

If a ministry today is not overseen by a particular church it is not following Bible example and it will eventually go off the rails, assuming it was on the rails in the first place.

They are or become a law unto themselves.

(Local) church authority keeps that in check while the church involved stays biblical.

This is not specific to this case but to all "para-church" organisations.

Scripture for this?

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1 hour ago, fastjav390 said:

Scripture for this?

Ummm - you would only have to find a single instance where a ministry was done WITHOUT a (local) church being behind it.......

I sort of mentioned that in the first sentence:

6 hours ago, DaveW said:

We don't see ministries in the Bible working outside (local) church authority.

 

If I am wrong, you should be able to come up with an easy example.... the burden is to find something contrary to my statement in the Bible.

We do not find a command for it, but for instance, Paul started many churches, and he went out under the authority of the church at Antioch.

Authority is evident.

For that matter, I don't see ANY MINISTRY other than (local) churches being started in the Bible.

So there you are - although I have not presented "a scripture" to support it, I have presented a Bible character for you to study.

Since mine is a statement of "Exclusion" so to speak, if I am wrong you should be able to present any number of examples that show a ministry started outside a (local) church and without the authority of a(local) church behind it. But one would be enough.

____________________________________________________________________________________

I have just re-read this and I think it could be perceived as me being a little "short" with my response.

Please let me assure you that I do not intend for it to sound mean, short, or sarcastic in any way - but I am not sure how to re-word it at this stage. 

Sorry if it does come across that way, but it is not intentional..........

Edited by DaveW

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Speaking for myself I don't usually get into it with atheists and evolution was simply an argument to justify slavery at that time period and continued on as a stubborn refusal to treat blacks as humans.  It continues on to day in all the KKK type web sites. 

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