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Problems with Soulwinning


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18 minutes ago, Bob Hutton said:

What I have put forward in my post is not "Calvinism" but simple Bible truth viz. Jesus in John 6 made it clear that a people have been given to Him by the Father (v37) and that no-one can come to Him unless it has been granted to them  (v65).

I would be interested to know why DaveW has warned against John Macarthur.  I don't agree with everything Dr Macarthur teaches but, as a general principle, his ministry has been extremely helpful to me.

Sir, please consider the following:

God's viewpoint is displayed in the context you quote dear friend. Not our viewpoint. The Lord knows all and sees all, knows who will believe and who will not throughout the ages. We see only free will and must warn everyone period. The spreading of Christ's Gospel is our earthly purpose.

So, to say that there is nothing wrong with witnessing is a gross understatement when you and I have no other purpose here, wouldn't you agree? God would logically just take us home upon the new birth if His seeds are spread and watered without us..make any sense? He gives the increase but we are tasked to seed and water.

Wouldn't you agree that no one can believe without hearing the Word of God. The Spirit and the Word work together as one to save and sanctify. It has never occurred spontaneously without hearing the Word in the Spirit's power. The more earnest, secret, private prayer that a believer puts in, the more of the Spirit's power will be present when they witness. Nor has any believer ever gotten close to Christlikeness from the standard 3/10% religion promoted by many pastors. It can only come by daily saturation in the Word, which enables believers to pray according to God's will.

This post's intention is not to address the calvin heresy. It is addressing the supreme purpose of witnessing and testifying the Gospel of Christ. I do agree that the sale's pressure should never be on a believer. The sincere burden to see souls escape hell should be however. We must warn them and tell them that we are warning them. The level of success however is in direct correlation with the amount of tears, prayer and fasting we commit to and never wisdom of our words; like sales tricks, etc. Just some thoughts without contention.

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21 minutes ago, wretched said:

Sir, please consider the following:

God's viewpoint is displayed in the context you quote dear friend. Not our viewpoint. The Lord knows all and sees all, knows who will believe and who will not throughout the ages. We see only free will and must warn everyone period. The spreading of Christ's Gospel is our earthly purpose.

So, to say that there is nothing wrong with witnessing is a gross understatement when you and I have no other purpose here, wouldn't you agree? God would logically just take us home upon the new birth if His seeds are spread and watered without us..make any sense? He gives the increase but we are tasked to seed and water.

Wouldn't you agree that no one can believe without hearing the Word of God. The Spirit and the Word work together as one to save and sanctify. It has never occurred spontaneously without hearing the Word in the Spirit's power. The more earnest, secret, private prayer that a believer puts in, the more of the Spirit's power will be present when they witness. Nor has any believer ever gotten close to Christlikeness from the standard 3/10% religion promoted by many pastors. It can only come by daily saturation in the Word, which enables believers to pray according to God's will.

This post's intention is not to address the calvin heresy. It is addressing the supreme purpose of witnessing and testifying the Gospel of Christ. I do agree that the sale's pressure should never be on a believer. The sincere burden to see souls escape hell should be however. We must warn them and tell them that we are warning them. The level of success however is in direct correlation with the amount of tears, prayer and fasting we commit to and never wisdom of our words; like sales tricks, etc. Just some thoughts without contention.

Thank you for your post, which is very helpful and informative.  However, I must disagree with your statement that the "level of success is in direct correlation with the amount of tears, prayer and fasting we commit to.."

The "success" of the Gospel's work in peoples' hearts is nothing to do with us.  God uses means, and witnessing and praying for the lost is vitally important. However, while it is a privilege  to be used of God the reason why people get saved is not because of us but wholly of God.  He is the One who draws and His purposes will never fail.  For biblical proof of that I would encourage you to read Job 42 v 2, Daniel 4 v 35, Psalm 115 v 3 and Psalm 135 v 6.  If God purposes to convert a person then nothing can thwart that purpose.  Again, I am not seeking to promote any particular line of theology but simply pointing out that, while evangelism is extremely important (and I do street evangelism 3-4 afternoons a week), the end result is not because of anything we do but what God does.

Once we accept that it is God who saves we should be even more zealous to witness knowing that we have a cause that cannot fail.

 

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4 minutes ago, Bob Hutton said:

Thank you for your post, which is very helpful and informative.  However, I must disagree with your statement that the "level of success is in direct correlation with the amount of tears, prayer and fasting we commit to.."

The "success" of the Gospel's work in peoples' hearts is nothing to do with us.  God uses means, and witnessing and praying for the lost is vitally important. However, while it is a privilege  to be used of God the reason why people get saved is not because of us but wholly of God.  He is the One who draws and His purposes will never fail.  For biblical proof of that I would encourage you to read Job 42 v 2, Daniel 4 v 35, Psalm 115 v 3 and Psalm 135 v 6.  If God purposes to convert a person then nothing can thwart that purpose.  Again, I am not seeking to promote any particular line of theology but simply pointing out that, while evangelism is extremely important (and I do street evangelism 3-4 afternoons a week), the end result is not because of anything we do but what God does.

Once we accept that it is God who saves we should be even more zealous to witness knowing that we have a cause that cannot fail.

 

I appreciate the kind reply sir. However, I can cite hundreds of NT Scriptures that demonstrate our purpose while here physically. Of course starting with our Lord's great commission to us. In addition all Scripture overwhelmingly points to absolute and total free will for men lost and saved (from men's perspective which is what this thread is all about and all that must matter to us). The scattered passages here and there that supports your view are always written from the Lord's perspective.  Not one instance exists otherwise in Scripture.

Please see that what you are claiming here is in fact making God's functional view of history your own functional view of history which is false and presumptuous. He knows exactly how much fruit we each will bring to perfection through obedience to God's commands to sow with tears and the power of His Spirit. However, if we cripple ourselves falsely from the start with this notion that God controls men's minds and hearts, we will never bear any fruit nor bring any to perfection. Street evangelism becomes merely academic and a stench in God's nose IMO. 

Revival (or as the OP stated - soulwinning) at all levels hinges solely on importunity my friend. Persistent, non-stop pleading to God for His Spirit's power. It won't be easy by any stretch. Real prayer is the hardest thing to do and double hard if you fast as our Lord demonstrated.

Look at it this way friend, if God cannot force us to feed on His Word daily and lose our earthly ambitions completely to Him as saved people do you honestly think He forces anyone to believe to begin with?

Study Luke 11:5-13 and please reconsider.....

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34 minutes ago, wretched said:

I appreciate the kind reply sir. However, I can cite hundreds of NT Scriptures that demonstrate our purpose while here physically. Of course starting with our Lord's great commission to us. In addition all Scripture overwhelmingly points to absolute and total free will for men lost and saved (from men's perspective which is what this thread is all about and all that must matter to us). The scattered passages here and there that supports your view are always written from the Lord's perspective.  Not one instance exists otherwise in Scripture.

Please see that what you are claiming here is in fact making God's functional view of history your own functional view of history which is false and presumptuous. He knows exactly how much fruit we each will bring to perfection through obedience to God's commands to sow with tears and the power of His Spirit. However, if we cripple ourselves falsely from the start with this notion that God controls men's minds and hearts, we will never bear any fruit nor bring any to perfection. Street evangelism becomes merely academic and a stench in God's nose IMO. 

Revival (or as the OP stated - soulwinning) at all levels hinges solely on importunity my friend. Persistent, non-stop pleading to God for His Spirit's power. It won't be easy by any stretch. Real prayer is the hardest thing to do and double hard if you fast as our Lord demonstrated.

Look at it this way friend, if God cannot force us to feed on His Word daily and lose our earthly ambitions completely to Him as saved people do you honestly think He forces anyone to believe to begin with?

Study Luke 11:5-13 and please reconsider.....

John 6:43  Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

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33 minutes ago, wretched said:

I appreciate the kind reply sir. However, I can cite hundreds of NT Scriptures that demonstrate our purpose while here physically. Of course starting with our Lord's great commission to us. In addition all Scripture overwhelmingly points to absolute and total free will for men lost and saved (from men's perspective which is what this thread is all about and all that must matter to us). The scattered passages here and there that supports your view are always written from the Lord's perspective.  Not one instance exists otherwise in Scripture.

Please see that what you are claiming here is in fact making God's functional view of history your own functional view of history which is false and presumptuous. He knows exactly how much fruit we each will bring to perfection through obedience to God's commands to sow with tears and the power of His Spirit. However, if we cripple ourselves falsely from the start with this notion that God controls men's minds and hearts, we will never bear any fruit nor bring any to perfection. Street evangelism becomes merely academic and a stench in God's nose IMO. 

Revival (or as the OP stated - soulwinning) at all levels hinges solely on importunity my friend. Persistent, non-stop pleading to God for His Spirit's power. It won't be easy by any stretch. Real prayer is the hardest thing to do and double hard if you fast as our Lord demonstrated.

Look at it this way friend, if God cannot force us to feed on His Word daily and lose our earthly ambitions completely to Him as saved people do you honestly think He forces anyone to believe to begin with?

Study Luke 11:5-13 and please reconsider.....

Thank you for your interesting reply.

I have never doubted the vital importance of evangelism which is why I spend so much time on seeking to win the lost to Christ.  However, I do not think that it is fair to say that my "own functional view of history is false and presumptuous".  Nor  do I think that it is fair to speak about "a stench in God's nostrils" - that was highly intemperate.

I find it rather intriguing that you are seemingly angry at me simply for believing that God, in His kindness, "shows mercy to whom He wishes to show mercy", which is exactly what happens when He converts anybody.

It  is God's business to save, it is ours to witness.  Nothing we do will change His purposes, we simply sow the seed and He gives the increase.

 

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1 hour ago, Invicta said:

John 6:43  Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

He further explains in the 12th chapter "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

It is all from His perspective still brother and not intended to ever be our perspective. There are a 100 to one passages commanding us to warn everyone.

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It seems to me that of the two arguments in process here both sides are contending for the same thing. One side contending for the necessity of planting and watering the seed which is our job and the other side contending the increase is wholly of God. Lest's be careful not to talk past each other in trying to understand different parts of the same process. Ultimately, the reward goes to the ones who are obeying the commands rather than those who understand them the best (though perfect understanding is always helpful when doing the work).

A perfect example of our heavenly partnership is the example of Cornelius. Though we are called to give the gospel to all people, there are those to whom God has a particular desier to save and draws the soul winner to. Those who are lost but are of a contrite and humble spirit. Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

We see in the life of Cornelius that he was without Christ but "a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway." (Acts 10:2) Therefor God divinely orchestrated the meeting with Peter so that Cornelius could receive the Gospel. The neat thing is that though Peter had to present the Gospel, it was said "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word." (Acts 10:44). It is great relief to my heart that though I must be a faithful witness of the Gospel it is still God that does the humbling, the convicting, and the drawing. "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34)

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On 21/02/2017 at 9:05 PM, wretched said:

Revival (or as the OP stated - soulwinning) at all levels hinges solely on importunity my friend. Persistent, non-stop pleading to God for His Spirit's power. It won't be easy by any stretch. Real prayer is the hardest thing to do and double hard if you fast as our Lord demonstrated.

Revival and soul winning are not the same.  Have you ever read accounts of Revival?

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On 2/15/2017 at 10:44 PM, AdamL said:

I have read a lot of info on David Cloud's website.  The first few times I read it I thought he was preaching lordship salvation.  I have since changed my mind.  I don't know that I agree with 100% of what he says but I think he has identified a problem for sure.  I have gone soulwinning with some people that I thought were way too quick to get someone to pray a prayer for salvation.

Just to be clear... David Cloud does not teach or preach lordship salvation. Not even a hint of it.  What he warns about frequently is the "123.. Pray after me." mentality.  See his free ebook "Fundamental Baptists and Quick Prayerism."  You can read it online (pdf viewer) or download in pdf, mobi (Kindle), and ePub formats.

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4 hours ago, Invicta said:

Revival and soul winning are not the same.  Have you ever read accounts of Revival?

Remember, I said at all levels. Revival as far as the Scriptures support would be primarily an upsurge of prayer for power resulting in true conversions. Remember that our Lord fasted 40 days to begin His ministry. That is an example that should be understood and followed at every level of ministry and every level of ministry must be geared toward converting, baptizing and discipling.

Edited by wretched
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