Members Popular Post AdamL Posted February 16, 2017 Members Popular Post Share Posted February 16, 2017 Hello everyone. I have been away for quite a while. I am active duty in the Navy and was gone on deployment. I became aware of some issues before I left on deployment and had 7 months on a ship to dwell on them and mull them over. I am still seeing the same issues now that I am home. Let me preface this by saying I am active in my churches corporate evangelism efforts. I go out for door knocking weekly. I also evangelize as I go places. I talk to co workers, friends, family, strangers... I leave tracts with people and at places I visit. I have been actively engaged in evangelism since shortly after I got saved 5 and 1/2 years ago. The problem is there is no discernable fruit. A group goes out and knocks doors upon return there is a testimony that 9 souls were saved. Those 9 people never show up at church, don't get baptized, and are not interested in discipleship. Another group goes out, 6 souls are saved. 1 out of the six comes to church once, then doesn't come back and won't return phone calls. I see this over and over and over. Folks get "saved" but you never see them again. We declare how we are doing the Lord's work but there is no fruit to show. I am not trying to sound results driven. I am trying to say that if a person gets saved something totally life altering has just happened. According to the Bible that person is now a new creature in Christ. However this is not what we are seeing. I have a friend that is a missionary in Papua New Guinea. He said people would listen to him and do what he said because he was white and from America. If he wanted them to pray a sinner's prayer they would do it. But there was no change. Nothing happened. Once they found out he wasn't going to give them money they were gone. I have read a lot of info on David Cloud's website. The first few times I read it I thought he was preaching lordship salvation. I have since changed my mind. I don't know that I agree with 100% of what he says but I think he has identified a problem for sure. I have gone soulwinning with some people that I thought were way too quick to get someone to pray a prayer for salvation. I have been with others that have clearly talked about sin, hell, and Jesus Christ. They have told the person that praying a prayer won't save them but only what they believe in their heart. But out of all these people that I have personally seen pray the prayer I have seen zero fruit from any of them. I have seen zero interest in discipleship that has been offered. I think there is a serious problem with our evangelistic efforts. Unfortunately I don't know what to do about it. What have you seen? What have you done differently? Have you had different results from the same methods I am describing? I am very interested in hearing everyone's thoughts. God Bless. 1Timothy115, Alan, Jim_Alaska and 3 others 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Popular Post Alan Posted February 16, 2017 Members Popular Post Share Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) Welcome home! All of us appreciate your duty in the Navy and your sacrifice. We did miss you and are looking to some fine discussions. I suspect most of us have sometime in our soul winning experienced the lack of visible results and the lack of fruit after an individual says a salvation prayer. At times, even after we have dealt with an individual for awhile, and went past the Romans Road, and dealt with the clear issues of hell, repentance, sin and the need to true belief, we may not see much fruit. We need to remember that it is our responsibility to adequately present the full gospel story. The salvation of the soul is between God and the individual we talk too. Here are some of my thoughts that I tend to keep in mind. I tend to think of the story of the Parable of the king who made a great supper (Luke 14:15-24), and, after many people refused, commanded his servants to, "... Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be full." Luke 14:23 Even though most people rejected the servants, the king still told the servants to go: the servants simply obeyed the Kings command. My responsibility is to go. Most of the people we deal with we spend a lot of time with. We tend to read the scriptures that we are talking about and not quote them. It does help when the individual you are dealing with actually see the words you are talking about. The average time limit is 45 minutes and we try to explain fully the message of salvation, a heart belief, we read the scripture where the Rich Man is hell telling folks they need to repent (Luke 16:30), and to trust in the work of Christ on Calvary (1 Cor. 15:1-6). Most people reject what we have to say and some folks do decide to get saved but they do not come to church. But, thankfully, some folks do decide to trust in the Lord Jesus and we do see them in church. I just want to encourage you to keep on soul-winning and spreading the seed of salvation to the lost. "In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening withhold not thine hand: for thou knowest not whether shall prosper, either this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good." Ecclesiastes 11:6 I also tend to try and remember the real reward of soul-winning is in heaven: not in the church. Only God in heaven above knows the results of each gospel seed that we sow. Sometimes we see the result of a changed life, most times we do not, either way: "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." Proverbs 11:30 Edited February 16, 2017 by Alan spelling and grammer John Young, Disciple.Luke, ... and 3 others 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Disciple.Luke Posted February 16, 2017 Members Share Posted February 16, 2017 I am very passionate about personal evangelism as well, and I have wrestled with the same questions. I've noticed that many people try to share the Gospel as a presentation instead of a conversation. When people feel like we are giving them a presentation they seem to want to just agree, and say or pray whatever it takes to get it over with. Of course, that's not always the case. Just toward the end of last year I lead a close friend of mine to the Lord, and he even showed up at church the following Sunday. After that he never came back, and quickly went back to his friends and lifestyle like nothing ever happened. I remember feeling like I had failed my friend somehow. I eventually met with our outreach Pastor to express my frustrations and concerns to him. He reassured me that I had done my part, and that I was in no way responsible for my friends spiritual growth since he refused my offer to help guide him in discipleship. In some cases it takes a person years to start attending church and bearing fruit after they become saved. I've seen it happen with others and that was my own personal experience as well. I was saved for almost three years before I gained a love for reading the Bible, but slowly the desire to learn the Word of God eventually came. Soon after I began a serious study of the Bible I started attending church, became a member, and today I understand what it means to be a new creation. John Young, ..., Alan and 1 other 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaveW Posted February 16, 2017 Members Share Posted February 16, 2017 We can't see a man's heart of course, but what you describe makes you wonder. Here in Australia we don't have it so much - Aussies tend to be a bit more up front and just dispense with politeness and tell you outright they are not interested. What that means is that you get less initial "response", but unfortunately we don't get a better % of success. Still lots of people who get "saved" who are never heard from again..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1611mac Posted February 16, 2017 Members Share Posted February 16, 2017 (edited) The most "successful" (by that I mean that it was God working through this person) soul winner I ever saw broke every rule in the book! God blessed him and blessed him by allowing him to lead many to Christ but his means was the most unconventional I have ever seen. Very direct. In my view almost to the point of being offensive but he grew a church almost by himself! It was an amazing thing to see. He was heavily involved in an RU ministry so many of those he witnessed to needed some "direct" talk. But he was no different when witnessing to anyone else and the response was the same. People trusting Christ, joining the church, and serving. I am not advocating this "technique" or any other.... It's obvious to me that God's hand was simply on this man. Edited February 16, 2017 by 1611mac clarity John Young 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Popular Post wretched Posted February 16, 2017 Members Popular Post Share Posted February 16, 2017 11 hours ago, AdamL said: Hello everyone. I have been away for quite a while. I am active duty in the Navy and was gone on deployment. I became aware of some issues before I left on deployment and had 7 months on a ship to dwell on them and mull them over. I am still seeing the same issues now that I am home. Let me preface this by saying I am active in my churches corporate evangelism efforts. I go out for door knocking weekly. I also evangelize as I go places. I talk to co workers, friends, family, strangers... I leave tracts with people and at places I visit. I have been actively engaged in evangelism since shortly after I got saved 5 and 1/2 years ago. The problem is there is no discernable fruit. A group goes out and knocks doors upon return there is a testimony that 9 souls were saved. Those 9 people never show up at church, don't get baptized, and are not interested in discipleship. Another group goes out, 6 souls are saved. 1 out of the six comes to church once, then doesn't come back and won't return phone calls. I see this over and over and over. Folks get "saved" but you never see them again. We declare how we are doing the Lord's work but there is no fruit to show. I am not trying to sound results driven. I am trying to say that if a person gets saved something totally life altering has just happened. According to the Bible that person is now a new creature in Christ. However this is not what we are seeing. I have a friend that is a missionary in Papua New Guinea. He said people would listen to him and do what he said because he was white and from America. If he wanted them to pray a sinner's prayer they would do it. But there was no change. Nothing happened. Once they found out he wasn't going to give them money they were gone. I have read a lot of info on David Cloud's website. The first few times I read it I thought he was preaching lordship salvation. I have since changed my mind. I don't know that I agree with 100% of what he says but I think he has identified a problem for sure. I have gone soulwinning with some people that I thought were way too quick to get someone to pray a prayer for salvation. I have been with others that have clearly talked about sin, hell, and Jesus Christ. They have told the person that praying a prayer won't save them but only what they believe in their heart. But out of all these people that I have personally seen pray the prayer I have seen zero fruit from any of them. I have seen zero interest in discipleship that has been offered. I think there is a serious problem with our evangelistic efforts. Unfortunately I don't know what to do about it. What have you seen? What have you done differently? Have you had different results from the same methods I am describing? I am very interested in hearing everyone's thoughts. God Bless. Interesting. I think you will find most (there is that word again) on this forum will agree with you. James and Paul both simply echo and rephrase the teaching of our Lord in all the Gospels. The only saving faith is that which produces works for God. No works (no interest in baptism or the milk of the Word, or growth, or sanctification, etc.), no saving faith....period. What new born baby fresh out of their mother's womb does not want milk immediately? Multiple millions claim faith in our Lord but very few demonstrate faith to our Lord. The Gospels and Epistles all proclaim this truth that is so often ignored. In every instance of the faith hall of fame of Hebrews 11 the saving faith was demonstrated to God by works. How many times did Jesus tell people though-out the Gospels not to "tell Me" but to "show Me". Example: No man having put his hand to the plough and looking back (at their old life), is FIT for the Kingdom of God. The early churches fell quickly into the apostasy of "dead faith" or what we call easy believe-ism/easy prayerism and this is what God used James to correct. Sadly apostates even within IFB circles continue to spread this unrepentant "gospel". It amazes me that many times the lost (who don't want to hear it) seem to know naturally what supposed "Christians" don't know about the true Gospel. It will change their hearts, minds, attitudes and their lives in every aspect. Enter satan who taught IFB "soulwinners" to dance around that to simply get a quick prayer out of people so they can report baloney numbers to each other or to falsely console themselves over lost loved ones. They actually have replaced Christ's teaching completely and are spreading a false (albeit easy) substitute for the Gospel. It is a cost counting substitute that Christ warned everyone about repeatedly throughout the Gospels. These "soulwinners" sell a quick prayer and never mention the necessity of baptism and discipleship. Christ's command to us is another of the hidden 3 in 1's in the Bible. Faith, baptism and growth to Christlikeness. Anything short of that is failure. Failure as in the parable of the sower's 3 failures to one true conversion. Why do they not include baptism and growth, you ask? because they don't want to know the reactions and answers to that from these false converts. They sold this person the all you have to do is say these words "gospel". This way they can report large numbers and look like a hero to the rest of their church. It is TARES trying to make more TARES IMO. Not so much many of the ignorant members but those in authority that teach this method of witnessing (despicable heresy). The world calls being born again things like: Finding religion or finding Jesus or becoming a Jesus freak or a Bible Thumper or a holy roller. They know it changes the person's life, the devils know it changes a person's life, God most assuredly knows it changes people's lives. Seems everyone knows it except modern professing "Christians". Mental acknowledgement of the Gospel produces no works for sure. Saving faith in the Gospel produces works without exception. One sows, another waters BUT ONLY GOD GIVES THE INCREASE. Prayerfully and carefully witness with gravity and tears and let the lost say to you "what must I do to be saved". You know, treat all people like you would your own relatives. Who sells their loved ones an un-convicted prayer? AdamL, Jim_Alaska, Chase Tallent and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bob Hutton Posted February 21, 2017 Members Share Posted February 21, 2017 AdamL has raised a very interesting point which was taken up by John Macarthur in his book "The Gospel according to Jesus" and the follow up book "The Gospel according to the Apostles". In these books Dr Macarthur seeks to highlight a clear difference between people who merely profess faith, and those who are truly saved. A person "gets saved" not because they have "prayed a prayer", at the insistence of an evangelist, but because God has moved upon them by His Spirit and drawn them to call out to Him in repentance and faith. Of course, there is nothing wrong with a Christian leading someone to the Lord, neither is there anything wrong with Gospel booklets that have a prayer of repentance and committment at the end. However, we need to be very cautious as there are many who "pray a prayer" but never evince any fruit. This is exemplified by the "results" at Billy Graham meetings. Many go forward to "receive Christ" but very few actually stay the course. In accordance with 1st John 2 v 19, those who merely profess faith were never truly saved in the first place. In conclusion, we need to remember that "salvation is of the Lord". We don't actually convert people, it is God who does that when He grants the gift of faith to people who have been given to Jesus - John 6 v 37 and v 65. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaveW Posted February 21, 2017 Members Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) Look at Paul's gospel presentation in Athens compared to elsewhere. In Athens his approach is different although the Gospel is the same. There is no such thing as a "one size fits all" Presentation method. You need to assess the person and convdrsation and vary your approach to suit. Note that I am talking about method and approach, not gospel. There is, was, and always will be only one Gospel. And I would warn people to be very wary with Macarthur..... Edited February 21, 2017 by DaveW John Young, wretched and Jim_Alaska 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alimantado Posted February 21, 2017 Members Share Posted February 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Bob Hutton said: In conclusion, we need to remember that "salvation is of the Lord". We don't actually convert people, it is God who does that when He grants the gift of faith to people who have been given to Jesus - John 6 v 37 and v 65. Just mentioning that few on this board hold to Calvinism or reformed doctrine. Salyan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1611mac Posted February 21, 2017 Members Share Posted February 21, 2017 Two phrases I avoid when leading someone to the Lord... 1.) How do you feel? 2.) Just pray this prayer. NatalieLynn, John Young and Disciple.Luke 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bob Hutton Posted February 21, 2017 Members Share Posted February 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Alimantado said: Just mentioning that few on this board hold to Calvinism or reformed doctrine. What I have put forward in my post is not "Calvinism" but simple Bible truth viz. Jesus in John 6 made it clear that a people have been given to Him by the Father (v37) and that no-one can come to Him unless it has been granted to them (v65). I would be interested to know why DaveW has warned against John Macarthur. I don't agree with everything Dr Macarthur teaches but, as a general principle, his ministry has been extremely helpful to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Salyan Posted February 21, 2017 Moderators Share Posted February 21, 2017 21 minutes ago, Bob Hutton said: What I have put forward in my post is not "Calvinism" but simple Bible truth viz. Jesus in John 6 made it clear that a people have been given to Him by the Father (v37) and that no-one can come to Him unless it has been granted to them (v65). Calvinism teaches the idea of 'irresistible grace' - that God has predetermined (as opposed to merely pre-knowing) those that shall be saved, and that they will be drawn to God and saved through no choice of their own. What you're saying sounds rather like that, which is probably why Alimantado is cautioning you. Although discussion is encouraged, any strong promotion of Calvinism is not permitted is not permitted on this board. Just wanted to let you know so you're not blindsided later on. :-) I'm going to say this now to prevent the thread being hijacked. (This is for everyone, Bob, not just you.) The topic of this post is soulwinning, so let's try to keep it to that, shall we? Any discussion of Calvinism should be deferred to another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members weary warrior Posted February 21, 2017 Members Share Posted February 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, Bob Hutton said: What I have put forward in my post is not "Calvinism" but simple Bible truth viz. Jesus in John 6 made it clear that a people have been given to Him by the Father (v37) and that no-one can come to Him unless it has been granted to them (v65). I would be interested to know why DaveW has warned against John Macarthur. I don't agree with everything Dr Macarthur teaches but, as a general principle, his ministry has been extremely helpful to me. I agree with Bob Hutton on this. The Bible is very clear that it is the Spirit of God that draws us to himself, and opens our heart to the truth. That is not Calvinism or Reformed doctrine, but simple Bible truth. Man has the free will to accept or reject that drawing and revelation, but we don't get saved without the conviction of God. Disciple.Luke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1611mac Posted February 21, 2017 Members Share Posted February 21, 2017 27 minutes ago, Bob Hutton said: -snip- I would be interested to know why DaveW has warned against John Macarthur. I don't agree with everything Dr Macarthur teaches but, as a general principle, his ministry has been extremely helpful to me. Not debating... offering for consideration only... http://www.wayoflife.org/reports/john_macarthur_and_cultural_liberalism.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bob Hutton Posted February 21, 2017 Members Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Salyan said: Calvinism teaches the idea of 'irresistible grace' - that God has predetermined (as opposed to merely pre-knowing) those that shall be saved, and that they will be drawn to God and saved through no choice of their own. What you're saying sounds rather like that, which is probably why Alimantado is cautioning you. Although discussion is encouraged, any strong promotion of Calvinism is not permitted is not permitted on this board. Just wanted to let you know so you're not blindsided later on. :-) I'm going to say this now to prevent the thread being hijacked. (This is for everyone, Bob, not just you.) The topic of this post is soulwinning, so let's try to keep it to that, shall we? Any discussion of Calvinism should be deferred to another thread. Salyan, many thanks for your comments. I wish to put your mind at rest. It was not my intention to promote any particular brand of theology, but rather to point out that it is the Lord who does the saving. This is relevant to evangelism as we can so easily think that we contribute in some way to people getting saved when, in fact, it is a work of God. Once we accept that salvation is of the Lord it takes the pressure off us and removes the temptation to water down the call to repentance lest it causes offence. Regards Bob Edited February 21, 2017 by Bob Hutton of should be off. weary warrior, John Young and Invicta 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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