....Cursed be Canaan....

[Colin Stolzer]

Those verses say that Canaan was cursed, not that his whole lineage was to be cursed, could one of you show me how an individual being cursed some how applies that curse to all of his descendants?

C

[heartstrings]

Those verses say that Canaan was cursed, not that his whole lineage was to be cursed, could one of you show me how an individual being cursed some how applies that curse to all of his descendants?

C

Yes

And also show me how a backslid, winemaking. wine drinking man with a hangover had enough supernatural power from God to effect such a curse. The Bible says in chapter six that Noah was just, perfect in his generations, and walked with God. A drunk man is not walking with God and Noah, at this point, was not being just when he cursed his innocent grandson. Pro 20:1

[Guest Guest]

Yes

And also show me how a backslid, winemaking. wine drinking man with a hangover had enough supernatural power from God to effect such a curse. The Bible says in chapter six that Noah was just, perfect in his generations, and walked with God. A drunk man is not walking with God and Noah, at this point, was not being just when he cursed his innocent grandson. Pro 20:1

[heartstrings]

[Bakershalfdozen]

My question too.

Where do you find that there was no spoilage before the flood?

[Jerry]

There are many examples of how Seth's and Japheth's descendants have fulfilled those prophecies. It obviously shows that the descendants of Canaan/Ham are in view as well, and not just the individual.

[Colin Stolzer]

There are many examples of how Seth's and Japheth's descendants have fulfilled those prophecies. It obviously shows that the descendants of Canaan/Ham are in view as well' date=' and not just the individual.[/quote']
Show scripture please, that supports the descendants being cursed not just the individual. In other instances of a lineage being cursed it specifically says that they are cursed but in this case it only talks of the individual. So I'm gonna need to see the scripture please?

C

[Jerry]

History bears out both the blessings and cursings mentioned in Genesis 9, regardless of whether someone may be able to find another passage speaking about the same thing or not.

[Guest Guest]

My question too.

Where do you find that there was no spoilage before the flood?

There was a canopy of water above the earth that kept UV rays out of the earth's atmosphere, as well as created a greenhouse effect. From air pockets in amber (kinda like Jurassic Park) scientists have discovered that the air pressure used to be double what it is now, and the air had over 50% more oxygen than now. Also there is no mention of spoilage before the Flood; that's the first mention of anything of the sort in the Bible.

The same could be asked of you, honestly. :smile Where is evidence of fermented wine before the Flood? This is the first time it's mentioned at all. Therefore it's safe to assume that Noah had no idea what he was getting himself into by drinking the wine. As far as we can tell from Scripture, he didn't know the difference.

[Jerry]

You don't get drunk from fruit spoiling (you would just get sick). Wine is produced with yeast causing fermentation, not by spoiling. It is possible that Noah did not know what the effects would be when he allowed his wine to ferment.

[Bakershalfdozen]

I agree that the Scripture is silent either way. I mentioned this to my husband and he said that the kind of spoilage and fermentation we have today may have been slowed - even a great deal - because of the canopy. However, people and animals died pre-flood so there had to have been a degree of decay.

[Colin Stolzer]

History bears out both the blessings and cursings mentioned in Genesis 9' date=' regardless of whether someone may be able to find another passage speaking about the same thing or not.[/quote']
Then would you explain to me why in the other instances when a whole family or several generations were to be cursed it says so specifically but in this case it doesn't. Regardless of what history bears out, if it doesn't say so in scripture then you are just adding your assumption based on historical evidence not scriptural fact, no were does it say that all of the generations after Canaan were going to be cursed it only says Canaan was to be a servant.

C

[JerryNumbers]

You don't get drunk from fruit spoiling (you would just get sick). Wine is produced with yeast causing fermentation' date=' not by spoiling. It is possible that Noah did not know what the effects would be when he allowed his wine to ferment.[/quote']

I've seen animals get drunk from eating fruit that has fell off trees and laid their for a while. They are quite entertaining to watch.

Once on TV they showed a group of monkey who were eating fruit that had fallen from a tree, they were a very funny site, every last one of them was drunk. they had a very good time for a while, but pretty soon ever last one of them were passed out. They showed them where they started coming to, you could tell they had a very bad hangover.

In both cases there was no yeast present. So i feel that your theory on the fruit is not correct.

Doesn't the sugar in fruit cause it to ferment?

[heartstrings]

History bears out both the blessings and cursings mentioned in Genesis 9' date=' regardless of whether someone may be able to find another passage speaking about the same thing or not.[/quote']

This topic is about the specific curse of Noah on Canaan to be a "servant of servants".

Do you have an historical account of Canaanites, as a people, being "servants of servants"?
The entire Israelite nation (from Shem) was enslaved for about 500 years but I haven't seen any proof, biblical or historical, that the Canaanites ever were. matter of fact, can you show me any Canaanites today? If so, are they slaves??

[JerryNumbers]

Barnes Commentary

Gen_9:25-27

The prophecy consists of two parts - a malediction and a benediction. "Cursed be Kenaan." A curse Gen_3:14, Gen_3:17; Gen_4:11 is any privation, inferiority, or other ill, expressed in the form of a doom, and bearing, not always upon the object directly expressed, but upon the party who is in the transgression. Thus, the soil is cursed on account of Adam the transgressor Gen_3:17. It is apparent that in the present ease the prime mover was Ham, who is therefore punished in the prospect of a curse resting on his posterity, and especially on a particular line of it. Let us not imagine, however, that the ways of the Lord are not equal in this matter; for Kenaan and his descendants no doubt abundantly deserved this special visitation. And as the other descendants of Ham are not otherwise mentioned in the prophecy, we may presume that they shared in the curse pronounced upon Kenaan. At all events, they are not expressly included in the blessing pronounced on the other two divisions of the human family, It is proper to observe, also, that this prediction does not affirm an absolute perpetuity in the doom of Ham or Kenaan. It only delineates their relative condition until the whole race is again brought within the scope of prophecy.

A servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. - The curse here consists in servitude, which is in itself an inferiority, and, among the children of self-will, tends more and more to all the horrid ills of slavery. Slavery originated in war and conquest. The mere warrior put the captives to death, the cannibal devoured them, the economist fed them for their labor. Accordingly, slavery soon made its appearance in all countries which were trodden by the conqueror. A system of slavery, imposed without consent and for no crime, is a dire evil. Besides the direct injustice of robbing a fellow-man of his personal liberty, it dissolves wedlock, breaks the family tie, and disregards the conscience. It trades, therefore, in the souls as well as the bodies of mankind. It is a historical fact that the degradation of slavery has fallen especially upon the race of Ham. A portion of the Kenaanites became bondsmen among the Israelites, who were of the race of Shem. The early Babylonians, the Phoenicians, the Carthaginians, and Egyptians, who all belonged to the race of Ham, were subjugated by the Assyrians, who were Shemites, the Persians, the Macedonians, and the Romans, who were all Japhethites. And in modern times it is well known that most of the nations of Europe traded in African slaves. "A servant of servants" means a slave of the most abject kind. "Unto his brethren." If the doom of slavery be referred to the race of Ham, then his brethren are the descendants of Japheth and Shem, who have held many of the Hamites in bondage. If we limit the sentence to Kenaan, then his brethren may include the other descendants of Ham. It is said that the servile tribe is also the most tyrannical; and it is the fact that the Africans have lent themselves to the forcible seizing and selling into slavery in distant lands of their own kinsmen and fellow-countrymen