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Alan

Paul, Chosen of the Lord Jesus as the 12th Apostle.

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No Nicolaitans,

I noticed the wrong spelling of my name before, but, I had decided not to mention it.

Also, I am glad to know that I remind you of your friend. To me that is a compliment.

Brethren,

Also, just for the record, Oliver B. Greene's last name is spelled, 'Greene,' not, 'Green.'

For those brethren who are interested in reading good Bible exposition books, sermon books, tracts, and good audio tapes, I heartedly recommend Bro. Greene's materials. Most of his books can be found in most used Christian bookstores. Here is the link to the website for Bro. Green's materials, The Gospel Hour: http://www.thegospelhour.org/

May the Lord bless all of you.

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18 hours ago, Alan said:

fastjav390,

 

Are not the scriptures the final authority?   

Alan

 

 

They should be. It seems your whole argument starts off on the wrong foot by trying prove Paul wasn't the "13th apostle" but one of the twelve since there can't be more than twelve apostles. If you run the word through a lexicon you'll find there are more than twelve apostles and the calling depends on being personally with the Lord from the beginning of his ministry. Paul was the exception and this is why he had to argue for his apostleship many times.  Paul was the exception to the rulebut  because he spent nine years with the Lord down in Arabia receiving a revelation from the Lord he qualified. 

There's nothing to suggest that Matthias was not an apostle after Peter and the other apostles drew lots on him (something similar to the Urim and Thummim I assume). In fact, when Luke (Paul's traveling companion) continues to mention the apostles thereafter there's no doubt Matthias was included in the lot. Even Apollos is mentioned in a list of apostles and he only knew of John's baptism until Paul reached him.

I don't believe the issue is that much of a big deal as long as no one gets suckered into believing there are apostles today or believing in apostolic churches (Catholic, Church of God, etc) and ministries.

Also, be careful you don't find yourself trying to hard to come up with a new teaching or doctrine that maybe no one else has ever noticed before. 

 

Edited by fastjav390

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16 hours ago, John Young said:

Jesus, by Name, was ordained as God's Apostle. Jesus only ordained 13 Apostles, which by His mouth expelled Judas from the office as the son of Perdition and then by His mouth later ordained Paul. The NT Jerusalem Church ordained Apostles to fulfill particular head offices. They were Apostles ordained of the Church and not of Christ directly. Their offices were also limited in scope and authority by the Jerusalem Church. Christ did appoint other seventy also but they were not called apostles nor by name and "the twelve" were always noted separately. 

We all can agree that Mathias was given Judas's office by the CHURCH but the Lamb called Paul by name, not Matthias or any other. Revelation says the twelve are the LAMB's apostles not the church's. These twelve are unique to Christ alone. Regardless of who else is called an apostle, even by the Jerusalem church.

Notice here in Paul's letters he makes it clear that he is an Apostle appointed by Christ and when speaking about the foundations he does not distance his Apostleship at all.

2 Corinthians 11:5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

2 Corinthians 12:11-13 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. 13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:.....2:
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 for through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

John Young,

Thank you for your expostion of the scriptures. I also do appreciate how you stayed on the original intent of this thread. As I clearly stated, and was ignored, the apostle who replaced Judas Iscariot was in fulfillment of Psalm 109:8

I also want to thank you for bringing Ephesians 2:20 to our attention. "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone." Ephesians 2:20

As with the doctrine of the character, mission, words, and commandments, of the Lord Jesus, the chief cornerstone of the church, we should know who is the apostle that the Lord Jesus verbally chose to replace the office of apostleship of Judas Iscariot.

The knowledge of the apostle who replaced Judas Iscariot, as part of the foundation of the church, was the intent of this thread. Paul is clearly the replacement of the office of Judas Iscariot in fulfillment of Psalm 109:8, "Let his days be few; and another take his office."

Again, I want to thank you for your welcomed expostion of scripture. It was a breath of fresh air.

Alan  

Edited by Alan
deleted repetitive phrase

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As for the silly idea that the 12 apostles were not led by the Holy Spirit before pentecost - the Lord Jesus gave'm him - well, here, once again let God tell us - in John 20 -

21  Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22  And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

And as stated before, the actual English word means 'sent for a particular reason', then we all are apostles. For who would deny that the 'great commission' is not for us all?

19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And that is a direct quote from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ himself. 

Not Bro. Greene.

Nor Alan.

But as some here would deny even these things for a private interpretation, I guess we could just throw those verses out too.

 

 

 

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Genevanpreacher,

You are twisting the words of the Lord Jesus in an effort to defend your own personal interpretation of the scriptures. 

Too claim that since all have the Holy Spirit and since all are given the Great Commision in effect makes us all apostles, in my opinon, is heresy.

The Lord Jesus verbally called Paul as the Apostle to replace the office of Judas Iscariot in order to fulfill Psalm 109:8

Alan 

Edited by Alan
grammer

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19 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

But as some here would deny even these things for a private interpretation, I guess we could just throw those verses out too.

Its not about throwing verses out or private interpretations. As many have pointed out:

1. There are more than 12 apostles.

2. Only 13 were called Apostles by Jesus. 1 being removed.

3. The others were apostles of the church.

4. There are only 12 Apostolic foundations and only 12 Apostles of the Lamb.

5. Jesus is an Apostle of God (only 1), Matthias is an apostle of the church for the twelfth position among them, as are any other added "aposles".

6. Paul is Jesus's twelfth Apostle, appointed by Jesus and not the church.

If Peter and the church had not appointed a substitute (when they were not asked to do so) by casting lots for one of only two options, then there would be no doubt as to who the new 12th Apostle of Christ was. 

Edited by John Young

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On ‎2017‎年‎1‎月‎29‎日 at 10:47 PM, Alan said:

 

Here is the portion of that study in Titus that deals with the issue whether or not Paul was the 12th Apostle.

Revelation 21:14, and Matthew 19:28, is very clear that there are only 12 apostles. To say that Matthias is the apostle for the nation of Israel and that Paul was just the apostle to the Gentiles is a private interpretation. Is Paul the 13th Apostle as some folks say? If so, than Revelation 21:14 and Matthew 19:28 is not true. Yes, Paul was called the apostle to the Gentiles but they does in absolutely no way, in any manner, mean that there was going to be a new man called to the Jews and one to the Gentiles.

  1. Paul was indeed chosen personally by the Lord Jesus Christ both in presence and by voice on the road to Damascus. Matthias was not chosen by the Lord Jesus: Matthias was chosen by the casting of lots, Acts "And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." Acts 1:26. Matthias was chosen by lots cast by the 120 early disciples.

  2. Psalm 109:8, “Let his days be few; and let another take his office.” The 12th. apostle to replace the office, or Apostleship, of Judas Iscariot, was only one office. There is no, may I repeat, no, scripture references in the Old Testament that there would be a 13th Apostle, nor any scripture prophesying that there would be an office to the Jews and one to the Gentiles. To differentiate between the office to the Jews and one to the Gentiles is a private interpretation, (hyper-dispensation), and not scriptural truth.

  3. The Lord Jesus plainly stated concerning the 12 apostles, and then to the individual who replaced Judas Iscariot, “And Jesus said unto them, verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of Man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Matthew 19:28 If there are 13 apostles, who is the 13th. Tribe?

  4. To qualify as an apostle the Lord Jesus had to call "chose," the individual by name: Matthew 10:1 & 2; Mark 3:13 & 14 “And he[Jesus] goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him.” "Paul, and apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.") Galatians 1:1 The Lord Jesus called Paul He did not call Matthias. Matthias was called by "man." Paul was chosen by the Lord Jesus, when the Lord Jesus gave the vision to Ananias in Acts 9: 10-18 we hear these very carefully selected words by the Lord Jesus Himself, "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he [Paul] is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel."
  5.            Paul was not only chosen by the Lord Jesus Himself, Jesus said Paul was "chosen," Furthermore, the Lord Jesus said that Paul was, "...to bear my name before the Gentiles,and kings, and the children of Israel." The Lord Jesus said, "... and the children of Israel."

Alan

 

The facts concerning the calling of Paul to replace Judas Iscariot, in his office of an Apostle, are as I wrote them in accordance to the doctrines of the scriptures.

Alan

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6 hours ago, Alan said:

The facts concerning the calling of Paul to replace Judas Iscariot, in his office of an Apostle, are as I wrote them in accordance to the doctrines of the scriptures.

Alan

Nope.

Not one verse you quoted said that.

Not one time does the scriptures say that Paul replaced Judas...not once!

Yet Alan says it does. 

Keep looking though. Maybe it's there...maybe.

Or maybe you believe a man made doctrine. 

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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12 hours ago, Alan said:

Genevanpreacher,

You are twisting the words of the Lord Jesus in an effort to defend your own personal interpretation of the scriptures. 

Too claim that since all have the Holy Spirit and since all are given the Great Commision in effect makes us all apostles, in my opinon, is heresy.

The Lord Jesus verbally called Paul as the Apostle to replace the office of Judas Iscariot in order to fulfill Psalm 109:8

Alan 

Alan, if you would read a little in more detail, you would see that I am not arguing that Paul was not an apostle, but I do say he was not, nor ever shall be, one of the 12 disciples, which the Lord Jesus called 'apostles' - And not 'Apostles', as a title.

You say the Lord called him, (or called him to be), one of the 12 apostle's.

There is no verse, or set of verses, in your Bible that states such, and to say there is, is deceitful to those reading this thread. (Why anyone else would support you is astounding - As well as surprising.)

Let me quote you Alan -

"Brethren, The Lord Jesus personally chose Paul, then called Saul, as the 12th. Apostle, to replace Judas Iscariot." (No verses say this!)

"Brethren, There are only 12 Apostles and Paul was the 12th Apostle to replace Judas Iscariot." (Again, no verses say this!)

"I explained the study on Paul the Apostle as the 12th Apostle to replace Judas Iscariot, more than adequately, in my estimation." (Without one verse that says this!)

"Paul is clearly the replacement of the office of Judas Iscariot in fulfillment of Psalm 109:8, "Let his days be few; and another take his office." (Without one verse that says such!)

"The Lord Jesus verbally called Paul as the Apostle to replace the office of Judas Iscariot in order to fulfill Psalm 109:8" (No such words came out of the Lord Jesus' mouth!)

"The facts concerning the calling of Paul to replace Judas Iscariot, in his office of an Apostle, are as I wrote them in accordance to the doctrines of the scriptures." (Except you gave no verses to show for that so-called doctrine, Alan!)

 

It looks like you are the one who needs to apologize.

 

 

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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12 hours ago, Alan said:

Genevanpreacher,

You are twisting the words of the Lord Jesus in an effort to defend your own personal interpretation of the scriptures. 

Too claim that since all have the Holy Spirit and since all are given the Great Commision in effect makes us all apostles, in my opinon, is heresy.

The Lord Jesus verbally called Paul as the Apostle to replace the office of Judas Iscariot in order to fulfill Psalm 109:8

Alan 

And Alan, just where am I twisting the Lord Jesus' words??

12 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

As for the silly idea that the 12 apostles were not led by the Holy Spirit before pentecost - the Lord Jesus gave'm him - well, here, once again let God tell us - in John 20 -

21  Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22  And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

And as stated before, the actual English word means 'sent for a particular reason', then we all are apostles. For who would deny that the 'great commission' is not for us all?

19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And that is a direct quote from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ himself. 

Not Bro. Greene.

Nor Alan.

But as some here would deny even these things for a private interpretation, I guess we could just throw those verses out too.

Show me wrong.

The apostle's had the Holy Spirit. The same Holy Spirit that would guide the disciples, called apostle's, into all truth -

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you." (John 16:13-15)

 

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And, Alan, the Lord Jesus did open their minds before he left, to understand the scriptures - which included Psalms -

"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures"

Don't you think this is HOW they got the idea to replace Judas?

Open your eyes a leeeetle wider.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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Brethren,

Nothing that genevanpreacher said is worthy of serious bible study.

As I have said before, according to Psalm 109:8, the office of the apostleship of Judas Iscariot was given to Paul the Apostle.  The Lord Jesus Christ personally, and verbally, chose Paul to take the office of Judas Iscariot. "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel." Acts 9:15 

Genevanpreacher openly rejects the prophecy of David in Psalm 109:8 and the words of the Lord Jesus in Acts 9:15.

23 hours ago, Alan said:

Paul is clearly the replacement of the office of Judas Iscariot in fulfillment of Psalm 109:8, "Let his days be few; and another take his office."

10 hours ago, Alan said:

The facts concerning the calling of Paul to replace Judas Iscariot, in his office of an Apostle, are as I wrote them in accordance to the doctrines of the scriptures.

Alan

The Holy Spirit inspired King David to write the prophecy of Psalm 109:8 and the choosing of the very carefully selected words of the Lord Jesus in Acts 9:15. Genevanpreacher wants the scriptures to say the words of the prophets and the words of the Lord Jesus the way he wants them to say them or he will not believe. In doing so, he twists the words of scripture to take away their meaning and doctrine. I prefer to believe the scriptures as they are written and not how I think they should be written.  

Alan

Edited by Alan
deleted repeated phrase

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1 hour ago, Alan said:

Brethren,

Nothing that genevanpreacher said is worthy of serious bible study.

As I have said before, according to Psalm 109:8, the office of the apostleship of Judas Iscariot was given to Paul the Apostle.  The Lord Jesus Christ personally, and verbally, chose Paul to take the office of Judas Iscariot. "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel." Acts 9:15 

Genevanpreacher openly rejects the prophecy of David in Psalm 109:8 and the words of the Lord Jesus in Acts 9:15.

The Holy Spirit inspired King David to write the prophecy of Psalm 109:8 and the choosing of the very carefully selected words of the Lord Jesus in Acts 9:15. Genevanpreacher wants the scriptures to say the words of the prophets and the words of the Lord Jesus the way he wants them to say them or he will not believe. In doing so, he twists the words of scripture to take away their meaning and doctrine. I prefer to believe the scriptures as they are written and not how I think they should be written.  

Alan

You have to be the vainest minister I have ever come across Alan.

You can't answer those verses I asked about can you? I added nothing to God's word, but you have added multiple imaginations to support your very weak opinion of what you interpret that the scriptures mean.

How dare you be so firmly hard shell about saying that "Nothing" I said was worthy of studying!!!

I DO NOT reject, and HAVE NOT rejected in ANY shape or form, neither of your 2 references named above!!

AND to say this - "Genevanpreacher wants the scriptures to say the words of the prophets and the words of the Lord Jesus the way he wants them to say them or he will not believe. In doing so, he twists the words of scripture to take away their meaning and doctrine. I prefer to believe the scriptures as they are written and not how I think they should be written" is EXACTLY what you have done!!

Wow! You have TOTALLY gone off the deep end Alan, you might as well hang up your KJV and move on to something worthy of such nonsense as to lie about me, when there is PLENTY of questions you have not answered, and PLENTY of verses you have NO answer for, which totally refute your imaginations about Jesus Christ telling us that Paul is the 12th apostle, which he NEVER did, and then claim YOU have this secret code of understanding the real meaning behind the actual words of the God of all creation that he had written down for all of us to read directly.

I refute your belief as nonsense.

 

 

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Judas is dead. Matthias is dead. Paul is dead. Whither Paul was numbered with the 12 or not is not even doctrine. It makes no practicle differance in our ministry or daily walk. It was an interesting academic exercise at one point, but it has now gone way beyond that, and for no purpose I can see except personal pride.

Pick your battles, fellas. There are subjects worthy of drawing swords over, but this isn't one of them.

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6 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

Judas is dead. Matthias is dead. Paul is dead. Whither Paul was numbered with the 12 or not is not even doctrine. It makes no practicle differance in our ministry or daily walk. It was an interesting academic exercise at one point, but it has now gone way beyond that, and for no purpose I can see except personal pride.

Pick your battles, fellas. There are subjects worthy of drawing swords over, but this isn't one of them.

Except Alan's lie of "the Lord said...".

Alan makes up a new doctrine, and yes, WW, anything taught IS doctrine, and Alan is perverted in his Bible study just enough to prove the masses reading this thread that we must all be fools.

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3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Except Alan's lie of "the Lord said...".

Alan makes up a new doctrine, and yes, WW, anything taught IS doctrine, and Alan is perverted in his Bible study just enough to prove the masses reading this thread that we must all be fools.

Genevanpreacher,

There is no lie in my teaching that Paul was the Apostle to replace Judas Isaciot. This is not a new doctrine, I proved that quoting Oliver B. Greene. Once I proved that I was not the originator of this teaching you berated not only me, but you also berated Bro. Greene . 

Nor is there any perversion in my Bible study. I have taught the truth. Nor have I considered anybody else who tried to discuss this a fool. The problem lies with you: genevanpreacher. You, genevanpreacher, have been the individual who has tried to cause disension, tried to 'bait' me in getting mad and irritated, and have had an argumentive spirit throughout the discussion on this thread. In my opinion you did so to disrupt the discussion (because you did not agree with it), and derail the thread. Also, you tried to create an argumentive spirit on the Titus thread in an effort to derail that thread.

Brethren,

I have the utmost regard for the other brethren who have participated in this discussion.

Even though we are not in complete agreement, I have not considered the other brethren as fools. I have considered you as my friends and have tried to limit this discussion on pupose so we can find common ground in the study of the scriptures.

I find no fault with any of the other brethren. In fact, the other brethren has tried to placate genevanpreacher and me. For which, I want to publicly thank weary warrior, Rebecca, fastjav390, NoNicolaitans and John Young. I appreciate not only your discussions but your fine spirit. I consider it an honor to be able to discuss this subject and any other subject; whether we agree or disagree.

May God bless you all.

Alan

 

 

Edited by Alan
capitalization spelling

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I deleted my other comment because it wasn't edifying. However, I do want to say, that the disagreement between NN and Alan actually did encourage me because in my mind that is how two Christians should behave when disagreeing on a subject. When neither one could sway the other, they amicably "shook hands" so to speak and left off. I had hopes that other argument would end the same way. I had also hoped to be able to contribute to this thread again concerning the main subject, but at this point, I will bow out. Thank you for all those who politely spoke up and provided scripture to support their belief on this subject, I appreciate it! :)

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