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Jordan Kurecki

The word wine does not automatically mean alcoholic

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Many lexicons and dictionaries will say that the word wine in english and oinos in greek. means alcohol. However..Did you know..? in 1869 Thomas Welch a Methodist lay preacher invented a juice pasteurization process to keep juice from fermenting. He sold it as "Dr. Welchs unfermented Wine", also ancient writers Pliny, Plutarch, Horace (Ancient Greek and Roman writers) used the word wine and said that the best wine was "harmless and innocent" and "unadulterated". I think Aristotle even used the word wine to refer to grape juice, also in the Bible in Isaiah 16:10 and a few others places the word wine is used in reference to grape juice.

Also just now making this thread I found this from
http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2008/04-10b.html :

"It is important to note that the Hebrew word tirosh, "grape juice, unfermented wine," appearing 38 times in the Old Testament (Harris, "tirosh," Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, 2:969), is almost exclusively translated by oinos (36 times). In other words, oinos can and does refer to either unfermented or fermented wine in the Septuagint."

I think it's obvious that the word wine can either mean alcoholic or non alcoholic fruit of the vine. This would explain why in some passages in the word of God it seems that wine is spoken of in a good light, that it "cheers the heart of man", and why other passages say not even to look at wine when it is red, and that wine is a mocker.

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That's right, today wine essentially refers to the alcoholic/fermented drink.  As late as the 1940s, Dictionaries still referred to it as both grape juice and strong drink.  That's why context is so important and constantly trips up those rock-n-roll christians with their phony Egyptian bibles.

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Then why the warnings in 1 Tim 3:3 and 3:8 for a bishop and a deacon to not be "given to wine" and "given to much wine"?

If it weren't harmful in being 'given to wine' or 'given to much wine', since it was 'fruit juice', why would they bother paying heed to these verses?

The implications are that these words for 'wine' mean alcoholic based.

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So forgive me in advance for being my normal logical, thoughtfully agitating self ...

In an age with no refrigeration, and in a time with no pasteurization or canning, and in an era that speaks a lot about wine very importantly, exactly how long after the annual grape harvest do you think they still had access to fresh, unfermented grape juice? Three days? A week? One week a year that a person who loved God could be allowed to drink a drink that is mentioned in scripture more than drinking water or milk , in a desert land, often with little sanitary drinking water, and associated with every aspect of the middle eastern lifestyle and culture?

Are there warnings about abuse? Of course. Absolutely. Is there a Biblical grounds for the oft used Independent Baptist definition of all "wine" references being fresh grape juice? Uh-uh. Not a chance. I agree with all postings above on that.

Complete forbiddance? No

Do I drink? No

Am I looking for an excuse to drink? Nope

It's amazing how not being afraid of what the Bible may really be saying on any given subject frees a man up to actually study and understand it fully.

 

 

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2 hours ago, weary warrior said:

So forgive me in advance for being my normal logical, thoughtfully agitating self ...

I will forgive you for being misinformed because I, myself, was not very long ago.  

There is a fantastic book called, Bible Wines by William Patton that explains all of your objections and many more.  He talks about how they would boil down the juices  until it would get thick.  In his book, he quotes Aristotle (born 384 BC) saying, "The wine of Arcadia was so thick, it was necessary to scrape it from the skin bottles in which it was contained, and to dissolve the scrapings in water."  The thickened juice-paste was often referred to as something called "must."

Patton also gives explanations of and references to processes that prevented fermentation and exalted non alcoholic wines/juices. Indeed, he gives a plethora of examples that support the view that the Bible forbids the consumption of alcoholic wine.  The above link will take you to a free, archived, online version of the book, downloadable in several formats.

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And quotes from history translated from a language most do not understand?

And printed during a ministry drive for the National Temperance Society.

For the 'support' against alcoholic beverages.

Hardly a balanced Bible study kinda people.

Meanwhile...what about 1 Timothy 3:3 & 3:8 as questioned above?

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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On 1/28/2017 at 11:12 PM, Genevanpreacher said:

Then why the warnings in 1 Tim 3:3 and 3:8 for a bishop and a deacon to not be "given to wine" and "given to much wine"?

If it weren't harmful in being 'given to wine' or 'given to much wine', since it was 'fruit juice', why would they bother paying heed to these verses?

The implications are that these words for 'wine' mean alcoholic based.

Are you being thick on purpose?  We are saying that the Bible refers to two kinds of wine:  one that is alcoholic and one that is not alcoholic.  There are numerous verses that paint wine in a negative light and numerous verses that paint wine in a good light.  Proverbs 23:31 forbids us from drinking wine when it is red, yet John 2:1-11 shows Jesus providing wine for an entire wedding party.  Proverbs 20:1 says that wine is a mocker, yet 1 Tim 5:23 says to take some wine for medicinal purposes.  These (and many other verses) are either  examples of contradictions within God's word or they mean that there are two kinds of wine; one that is acceptable to drink and the other that is not.  I, myself, do not believe that contradictions of God's words exist, so logic tells me that there must be two kinds of wine.

There is reliable historical information about how alcoholic beverages were made as well as how juices were made and preserved.  Much of it is included in the book to which I gave reference.  

 

Edited by Brother Stafford

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2 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

Are you being thick on purpose?  

Thick headed? Maybe. I am just tired of 'men of God' saying the scriptures mean grape juice when the drink was indeed alcoholic. Otherwise why the warning in 1 Timothy 3:3 and 3:8, of which nobody has touched on?

A book about the supposed English translations from various languages of men stating different views on 'wine' makes no difference to me. There are just as many 'testimonies' to the contrary from other men. Of course the Temperance society was going to explain why there were two different interpretations, one to show Jesus drank juice, and one that states alcohol is evil.

Just because something has alcohol in it that doesn't mean someone gets inebriated and loses control. Take Nyquil for an example. Used as a medication by probably most Christians, without getting the least bit inebriated in a 'deceivable and sinful way'.

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15 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Thick headed? Maybe. I am just tired of 'men of God' saying the scriptures mean grape juice when the drink was indeed alcoholic. Otherwise why the warning in 1 Timothy 3:3 and 3:8, of which nobody has touched on?

A book about the supposed English translations from various languages of men stating different views on 'wine' makes no difference to me. There are just as many 'testimonies' to the contrary from other men. Of course the Temperance society was going to explain why there were two different interpretations, one to show Jesus drank juice, and one that states alcohol is evil.

Just because something has alcohol in it that doesn't mean someone gets inebriated and loses control. Take Nyquil for an example. Used as a medication by probably most Christians, without getting the least bit inebriated in a 'deceivable and sinful way'.

Ok... so, I guess, you're not doing it on purpose.

Edited by Brother Stafford

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Many years ago, I did a careful study of wine and found that there were two types.  Because of the way, the presses were built the grapes were crushed and the juice was allowed to settle twice.  In the upper most chamber the grapes would be trampled and the juice would run down into a second storage area where the juice could settle and drain into a third holding area one of the areas (been too long to remember which) eventually retained a thickened mixture similar to grape syrup which would be used to make juice in the same manner we would make cool aid today.  The other holding area is where the juice would be collected and placed into bottles where it would eventually ferment.  In effect, you had two wines, one was for taste and the other fermented.     

 

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One of the funniest things about this subject for me is that people use it as an excuse to drink any sort of alcohol. 

If someone argues this subject whilst holdingva beer or spirits, they only argue because they want to drink.

The Bible is clearly against "strong drink", never speaking positively about it.

Any Christian who drinks any alcohol except wine is seeking excuses not truth on the matter.

(My personal conviction is that no alcohol at all is the best way).

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An interesting side topic: I often discuss with people as to the taking of the Lord's Supper, because so many use fermented, alcoholic wine. And of course, we know the Jews use alcoholic wine as well for Passover, (I believe). Yet the Bible never once refers to what was used for the Lord's Supper as 'wine', rather as the 'fruit of the vine' or 'the cup'. That is simply because, there should be not mistake at all that to use alcoholic wine would be to completely ruin the picture the Lord's Supper gives, as much as using leavened bread for the bread, (which I see all the time in depictions of the Lord's Supper).  Since the bread represents the perfect body of Christ, without sin, unleavened bread is used. So, as the cup represents the perfect, sinless blood of Christ, having it alcoholic, which is a corruption of the natural sugars in the grape, would lose the picture of the sinless blood of Christ. Fermenting juice is basically the same as leavening bread.

As to the main topic, I have heard of another type of wine, but I am having the brain damage right now and can't remember it, but it is neither juice nor alcoholic wine, but something else, but I need to ask my wife, who will probably remember, so as soon as I can I will come back with it.

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51 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

As to the main topic, I have heard of another type of wine, but I am having the brain damage right now and can't remember it, but it is neither juice nor alcoholic wine, but something else, but I need to ask my wife, who will probably remember, so as soon as I can I will come back with it.

You're probably thinking about the type that manifests as the sound that emits from the mouths of those who seek to justify drinking the alcoholic type when they are told that is is unbiblical.  

Edited by Brother Stafford

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Isaiah 65:8 (KJV)
8  Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, 

Much more to say on the topic, but this is to say that wine in the Bible does indeed refer to both "new wine" found still in the cluster, and fermented wine.

 

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