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futurehope
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If people are staring down at their songbooks lifelessly and singing the words out of duty' date=' they are basically doing so in vain. In the same respect, if they are lifting their hands and singing out to make themselves appear "in tune to the Holy Spirit" (as I have heard some charasmatics put it) or to make themselves feel good, they are also in vain. [/quote']


:amen::goodpost: At least, this "anyone" LOL...believes this in her "heart of hearts."


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I don't know anything about a group that calls itself Conservative, but the word as used by most here would mean a believer that sticks close to the Bible, does his best to make sure his standards and beliefs are solidly in line with God's Word - as opposed to a liberal, which usually means someone who doesn't take the Bible literally, has no Biblical standards (ie. loose standards), explains away Bible doctrine and Bible passages (eg. not six literal days of creation, listens to secular rock, form-fitting/immodest clothing, etc.).

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A liberal is someone who does not take the Bible literally and who does not see the entire Bible as something that is applicable to our life. That being the case, the term "liberal" is thrown around far too often because most people who are accused of being liberal are not liberal at all. Going to the movies or listening to rock music doesn't mean they don't take the Bible seriously and attempt to apply it to every aspect of their life.

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The first organization of Conservative Baptists was the Conservative Baptist Foreign Mission Society (CBFMS), now called WorldVenture, formed in Chicago, Illinois in 1943. The Conservative Baptist Association of America was organized in Atlantic City, New Jersey in 1947. The Association now operates under the name CBAmerica. The Conservative Baptist Association emerged as part of the continuing fundamentalist/modernist controversy within the Northern Baptist Convention. The forming churches were fundamental/conservative churches that had remained in cooperation with the Northern Baptist Convention after other churches had left, such as those that formed the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches. At the 1946 NBC meeting, the old convention made it clear that it would not allow a competing missionary agency to operate within it. Churches withdrew, forming the new association, and hundreds of others withdrew in the following years. The conservatives were in the majority in Minnesota and Arizona, and the Northern Baptists lost those state agencies. The movement presently supports three national agencies - CBAmerica, WorldVenture (formerly CBFMS, then CBInternational), and the Mission To The Americas (formerly Conservative Baptist Home Mission Society).

CBAmerica is a network of churches and ministries, committed to evangelization and church planting. Though they work in cooperation, each individual church is autonomous. Conservative Baptists also cooperate with institutions of higher learning in the field of education, as well as promoting youth and women's ministries. In 2003, the Association has over 1200 churches and over 200,000 members.
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Molly,

No, I"m not from Japan.....but I served in the US Military there on Okinawa. My wife and I got saved at the same preaching service 29 years ago. We were baptized that night and Lord's been working on me since. The church was a missionary church to the military and local nationals. At the time it was BIMI and it was Pastor Ed Gibson at Maranatha Baptist Church (they are celebrating 40 years in September).

Peace! TRC
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I understand the notion that a person often displays what is in their heart, but Kevin there are verses in the Bible that also tell us to be sober. I am a much more serious person at church than at home. If you were to see me singing at church would my nose be buried in my hymnal--most likely, unless I'm distracted and I'm singing it from memory. You see, I like to read each and every word as I sing, and take it in and think about it while I sing it. All those hymns full of doctine, as you called it, speak to me and I like to sing them with an agreement in my mind and my spirit. I often find myself saying "Amen" in my mind to the words of a song or praying and thanking the Lord for saving me, for who He is etc. I don't know, maybe I'm weird, but I think there are a lot of other people who do the same thing. I feel you would have misjudged my heart had you been in one of our services and looked over at my "outward appearance". Additionally, if you'd happen to catch me looking around with a smile........I would definitely not been at my most spiritual. Like those choruses you were speaking of, much of our hymns speak of God's power, goodness, and majesty (which are also "doctrine" :wink ). Many hymns speak also of God's great mercy and grace, His redemptive power and victory He has given us over our wretched sinful state etc. Choruses tend to leave much out about sin and salvation. I'm not sure why that is, but I definitely prefer all of the truths that are expressed in the ol' hymns. One other thought, I've been in churches who've done choruses, too......yes, you may see a few people shed a few tears while they are raising their hands, swaying to the music etc, but if the preaching or reading of God's Word doesn't drive that same person to their knees in tears once in a while, then something is wrong. No, we don't have to see it--it can be in secret, but I get a little upset that (and I'm not saying you're implying or saying this) when people will defend choruses as being more spiritual and "real" and turn around and say that "invitations" are of no profit and are for show. If we are going to be moved or convicted by the Holy Spirit, it would make more sense that it would happen because of the preaching of God's Word more than by music. Music does a good job of preparing our hearts for the message, though! :thumb
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Thanks, LuAnne. :thumb I believe that my "mustard seed" was planted when my mother enrolled me in Nursery School at the age of 3 (1967)...in a Northern Baptist Church (hubby and I are moving to that town...at the end of September.) It is the next town over from us, in fact....and, is closer to our IFB church. We will be living in the country more...as country as you can get in Cuyahoga County, now. Yahooo!

John D. Rockefeller, Jr. was also a Northern Baptist. They were huge in Cleveland, OH as well as Chicago, Illinois...as I can see. BTW, some of my first cousins from New Jersey are American Baptists (a stem-off of the Northern Baptists.)
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I understand the notion that a person often displays what is in their heart, but Kevin there are verses in the Bible that also tell us to be sober. I am a much more serious person at church than at home. If you were to see me singing at church would my nose be buried in my hymnal--most likely, unless I'm distracted and I'm singing it from memory. You see, I like to read each and every word as I sing, and take it in and think about it while I sing it. All those hymns full of doctine, as you called it, speak to me and I like to sing them with an agreement in my mind and my spirit. I often find myself saying "Amen" in my mind to the words of a song or praying and thanking the Lord for saving me, for who He is etc. I don't know, maybe I'm weird, but I think there are a lot of other people who do the same thing. I feel you would have misjudged my heart had you been in one of our services and looked over at my "outward appearance". Additionally, if you'd happen to catch me looking around with a smile........I would definitely not been at my most spiritual. Like those choruses you were speaking of, much of our hymns speak of God's power, goodness, and majesty (which are also "doctrine" :wink ). Many hymns speak also of God's great mercy and grace, His redemptive power and victory He has given us over our wretched sinful state etc. Choruses tend to leave much out about sin and salvation. I'm not sure why that is, but I definitely prefer all of the truths that are expressed in the ol' hymns. One other thought, I've been in churches who've done choruses, too......yes, you may see a few people shed a few tears while they are raising their hands, swaying to the music etc, but if the preaching or reading of God's Word doesn't drive that same person to their knees in tears once in a while, then something is wrong. No, we don't have to see it--it can be in secret, but I get a little upset that (and I'm not saying you're implying or saying this) when people will defend choruses as being more spiritual and "real" and turn around and say that "invitations" are of no profit and are for show. If we are going to be moved or convicted by the Holy Spirit, it would make more sense that it would happen because of the preaching of God's Word more than by music. Music does a good job of preparing our hearts for the message, though! :thumb
SPOT ON!!! :clap: :amen:
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:amen: :smile Now, I know where you are coming from, trc. Thank you. :thumb Also, thank you for serving in our military. WTG...brother! My church supports---The Sage Family (Missionaries to the U.S. military in Yokosuka, Kanagawa, Japan...BIMI.) :pray for Mark and Stephanie and their 3 beautiful daughters. Bro. Mark preached last Fall at our Missionary Conference. Also, Randy and Kelly Johnson in Okinawa, Japan. :pray Their beautiful daughter is currently attending Hyles-Anderson College. :thumb I am very familiar with Maranthia Baptist Church...as well. We have had missionaries come from Maranthia to preach at Columbia Road Baptist Church. Praise God for His children. :wave:
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I don't remember any verses telling us to be sober in a literal sense. There are far more verses encouraging us to rejoice and "clap our hands" and shout to the Lord than any that tell us we should be serious. If that's how you worship, then that is fine, though I don't know if that would be considered worship, necessarily. I'm just not sure how a person who is truly in a spirit of worship can sit as if nothing is touching them and exhibit no expression at all.

Music was often an expression of praise and worship in the OT, especially. It wasn't to "prepare hearts for the sermon." The music itself was the worship and adoration of God. That's especially why I don't see the need for songs to be about salvation or conviction of sin, that's not what music is for. At least, that's not what worship or praise music is for. Praise and worship music puts all the focus on God and His glory and in worshipping Him, I think that's a positive thing.
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I said once before that a lot of hymns are about doctrine whereas most P&W songs are focusing on the glory and majesty and goodness of God. I see something real in the way people worship God in a contemporary service that I don't see in most traditional services. It seems like people actually care about what they're singing.


The reason for that is this:

"Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

We see from this that one of the primary purposes of godly music is to teach and admonish the hearers. If the words to a song do not do that it really isn't a particularly godly song.

Every song that I can recall from scripture, is either teaching doctrine directly, or is recounting various deeds of the Lord, and thus still teaching much doctrine, but indirectly.

What we don't see in scriptural songs is something which is very common in much CCM, mindless repetition with the focus on the music so as to induce emotion, or vague wordings with only token acknowledgement to bible truths.
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If that's how you worship, then that is fine, though I don't know if that would be considered worship, necessarily. I'm just not sure how a person who is truly in a spirit of worship can sit as if nothing is touching them and exhibit no expression at all.

Music was often an expression of praise and worship in the OT, especially. It wasn't to "prepare hearts for the sermon." The music itself was the worship and adoration of God. That's especially why I don't see the need for songs to be about salvation or conviction of sin, that's not what music is for. At least, that's not what worship or praise music is for. Praise and worship music puts all the focus on God and His glory and in worshipping Him, I think that's a positive thing.


You tell us that we can't judge someone's heart based off their actions - even when we are using scripture to do so - in another topic, but turn around and judge someone else's worship simply by opinion?? :puzzled: I don't get it Kevin. As far as conviction of sin and salvation, is this not the root and fundamental point of why we praise God - because He did convict us of our sin so that we could be saved? Personally, I'm starting to get the idea that you are more interested in being charismatic than being doctrinally sound and growing in wisdom and truth. I don't understand your stance on this if you have no scripture to back it up with.
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The reason for that is this:

"Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

We see from this that one of the primary purposes of godly music is to teach and admonish the hearers. If the words to a song do not do that it really isn't a particularly godly song.

Every song that I can recall from scripture, is either teaching doctrine directly, or is recounting various deeds of the Lord, and thus still teaching much doctrine, but indirectly.

What we don't see in scriptural songs is something which is very common in much CCM, mindless repetition with the focus on the music so as to induce emotion, or vague wordings with only token acknowledgement to bible truths.

Psalm 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

And so goes the rest of the chapter. Repetition is not always a bad thing. It might not be your preference, but certainly not wrong. If you look at the Psalms, you will often find songs that are extolling the virtues of the Lord, recalling past events, or just praising the Lord for His goodness. The Psalms are the largest examples of Biblical music in the Bible, and they seem to be more similar to P&W songs than to hymns, IMHO.
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You tell us that we can't judge someone's heart based off their actions - even when we are using scripture to do so - in another topic, but turn around and judge someone else's worship simply by opinion?? :puzzled: I don't get it Kevin. As far as conviction of sin and salvation, is this not the root and fundamental point of why we praise God - because He did convict us of our sin so that we could be saved? Personally, I'm starting to get the idea that you are more interested in being charismatic than being doctrinally sound and growing in wisdom and truth. I don't understand your stance on this if you have no scripture to back it up with.

I'm not judging, I'm saying I don't understand how that is worship. I never called into question her spirituality or anything related to it. I haven't gone outside the normal bounds of discussion and debate and attacked anyone personally. I'm not going to chase the strawman in the latter part of your post.
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Psalm 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalm 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

And so goes the rest of the chapter. Repetition is not always a bad thing. It might not be your preference, but certainly not wrong. If you look at the Psalms, you will often find songs that are extolling the virtues of the Lord, recalling past events, or just praising the Lord for His goodness. The Psalms are the largest examples of Biblical music in the Bible, and they seem to be more similar to P&W songs than to hymns, IMHO.



In musical styles too?? That was the original topic here, not so much the lyrics. Though I do agree that there is nothing wrong with repetition. You can't tell God too many times that you love and adore Him.
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I don't have a problem with SOME limited CCM, however it is my PREFERENCE not to have it at church. I like the good old hymns of the faith. I love to sing them at church.

I do, however, have problems with the churches that pretend to be totally against CCM but will "adapt" Bill Gaithers songs and make them "acceptable" to be sung in church. That, my friends, is hypocrisy.

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