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futurehope

Music in Church

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bzmomo7...Great post. :thumb I know Christian people who love Gospel music (raising my hand)...and, many other OB members, and church members, etc...who are just as "passionate" as Our Saviour as any one else. :clap: Well put, IMHO.

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No one should assume that those of us who love the older Gospel hymns aren't as passionate about the Lord Jesus Christ as those of us who also very much enjoy some newer and more instrument diverse praise songs and vice versa. I personally love and can sing from memory the great majority of the hymns from the Great Hymns of the Faith Red Hymnal. And I also love some of the newer praise songs and music as well. Do I enjoy so called "Christian Rock" (i.e. Stryper, etc.)?...... no I do not.

The difficulty when it comes to discussing flavors of Christian music is that everyone takes their choice very seriously and when someone else says something to extol the virtues of a different flavor people feel that they must think their different choice is being denegraded (sp?). Then on top of it all, while most IFB believers would agree that the believer is to stay away from "worldly" music, there is little agreement as to exactly how to define "worldly" when it comes to the subject of music (each person has a slightly different take).

If worldly means anything the "world" is doing, then I won't wear a tie and suit and I won't listen to classical music because millions of "unsaved" are wearing ties to work and listen to classical music.

If worldly means anything that the "world" thinks a Christian shouldn't do, then I'm allowing the unsaved person's expectations of what a Christian should be and do to reign in my life, rather than the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

"And hauing spoyled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing ouer them in it. Let no man therefore iudge you in meat, or in drinke, or in respect of an Holy day, or of the New moone, or of the Sabbath dayes: Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward, in a voluntary humilitie, and worshipping of Angels, intruding into those things which hee hath not seene, vainely puft vp by his fleshly minde: And not holding the head, from which all the body by ioynts and bands hauing nourishment ministred, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if yee bee dead with Christ fro the rudiments of the world: why, as though liuing in the world, are ye subiect to ordinances?
(Touch not, taste not, handle not: Which all are to perish with the vsing) after the commandements and doctrines of men:" Col 2:15 - 22 KJV - 1611 (perhaps not the exact interpretation for the subject of music; but certainly application can be made)

I'm personally much more concerned about what God says is right for me as his child than I am about the world or the church. While I say that, most things in the Christian walk (and in the Scriptures) is about balance and most things taken to the extreme are not of God.

I'm not really communicating this the way I want, I don't think.....my lunch hour is getting over with and I have to go.....I look forward to the various words of wisdom or rebuke you may have.......

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No one should assume that those of us who love the older Gospel hymns aren't as passionate about the Lord Jesus Christ as those of us who also very much enjoy some newer and more instrument diverse praise songs and vice versa. I personally love and can sing from memory the great majority of the hymns from the Great Hymns of the Faith Red Hymnal. And I also love some of the newer praise songs and music as well. Do I enjoy so called "Christian Rock" (i.e. Stryper, etc.)?...... no I do not.

The difficulty when it comes to discussing flavors of Christian music is that everyone takes their choice very seriously and when someone else says something to extol the virtues of a different flavor people feel that they must think their different choice is being denegraded (sp?). Then on top of it all, while most IFB believers would agree that the believer is to stay away from "worldly" music, there is little agreement as to exactly how to define "worldly" when it comes to the subject of music (each person has a slightly different take).

If worldly means anything the "world" is doing, then I won't wear a tie and suit and I won't listen to classical music because millions of "unsaved" are wearing ties to work and listen to classical music.

If worldly means anything that the "world" thinks a Christian shouldn't do, then I'm allowing the unsaved person's expectations of what a Christian should be and do to reign in my life, rather than the Holy Scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

"And hauing spoyled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing ouer them in it. Let no man therefore iudge you in meat, or in drinke, or in respect of an Holy day, or of the New moone, or of the Sabbath dayes: Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward, in a voluntary humilitie, and worshipping of Angels, intruding into those things which hee hath not seene, vainely puft vp by his fleshly minde: And not holding the head, from which all the body by ioynts and bands hauing nourishment ministred, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if yee bee dead with Christ fro the rudiments of the world: why, as though liuing in the world, are ye subiect to ordinances?
(Touch not, taste not, handle not: Which all are to perish with the vsing) after the commandements and doctrines of men:" Col 2:15 - 22 KJV - 1611 (perhaps not the exact interpretation for the subject of music; but certainly application can be made)

I'm personally much more concerned about what God says is right for me as his child than I am about the world or the church. While I say that, most things in the Christian walk (and in the Scriptures) is about balance and most things taken to the extreme are not of God.

I'm not really communicating this the way I want, I don't think.....my lunch hour is getting over with and I have to go.....I look forward to the various words of wisdom or rebuke you may have.......
:goodpost:

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trc, thank you for taking us back to the original point: what is God's will for music in our lives? Where is the line drawn on trying to combine the ways of the world with the praise of Christ? These are the focus, and I believe very important.

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I have to agree here. Kevin, the statement you make here, while very possibly not your intent, sounds like things I've heard said by those of the Assemblies and Pentecostal doctrines. Their focus is on emotions and feelings, which we are warned about trusting in, instead of worshipping in truth and in spirit. Physical displays and feelings of passion are not necessarily true worship. Often, physical displays are made for men and not for God. Growing up in a "contemporary" Methodist church, I experience and observed this. Not to mention, that many of these "feel good" song services are followed (and I'm definitely generalizing and not saying necessarily your church) by the same type of preaching. The end result of the service is that people feel great about themselves and, instead of confessing their sins to God so that He can forgive them, many ignore the reallity in their life and try to just forget about their sin. This does not lead to the reconciliation of sinners to Christ and service for Him, but a "feel good attitude" about their own life and what they are doing.

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Personally, I'm praising God because of the forgiveness of my sin by the once and for all sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ and his blood! That would make anyone shout and get emotional (I'd think).

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A person's heart will often determine what they display outwardly. When a person sings hymns, oftentimes they just sing the words while looking straight ahead or down at their hymnbooks. On the other hand, when I'm in a contemporary worship service, people are raising their hands as they sing about the power or glory of God. I've even see people cry at times. It seems like their hearts are really in it and they focus on and think about what they are singing rather than just saying the words. I said once before that a lot of hymns are about doctrine whereas most P&W songs are focusing on the glory and majesty and goodness of God. I see something real in the way people worship God in a contemporary service that I don't see in most traditional services. It seems like people actually care about what they're singing.

Also @ future, the focus is not on emotions in the services I've been in and the churches I've looked at that are contemporary. Sure, some probably are, you have extremes on both sides. Usually the preaching is good, too. That's just my personal experience and I'll admit it's not extensive since I haven't actually been in a multitude of different churches.

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Personally' date=' I'm praising God because of the forgiveness of my sin by the once and for all sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ and his blood! That would make anyone shout and get emotional (I'd think).[/quote']


Hi trc...This may seem like a dumb question on my part, but...are you originally from Japan? :wave:

Molly

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Well...I suppose this all goes back in my mind to what my pastor has said...."How do we know what is in a person's heart...when we don't even know what is in our own heart?" Only the Lord Jesus Christ knows the answer to that question. :amen: We should know when we are saved by the power of the Holy Spirit...and, our "fruits" should be the result of that salvation. I am happy that you are following the Lord's Will for you life, Kevin. :smile


Revelation 22:2...In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. KJVB.

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Kevin, please note that I'm not saying that your church is as "shallow" as some of what I had previously mentioned. But also, please realize that the bottom line, and you've basically said this yourself, it's not the music that determines the service or the amount of love and passion for our Saviour. I have made very generalized comments about "contemporary" church serices and you have done the same about the "old fashioned" ones. However, the bottom line is really about the motives, intents, and personal spiritual response to God of each individual and the church as a whole. If people are staring down at their songbooks lifelessly and singing the words out of duty, they are basically doing so in vain. In the same respect, if they are lifting their hands and singing out to make themselves appear "in tune to the Holy Spirit" (as I have heard some charasmatics put it) or to make themselves feel good, they are also in vain. So maybe we should look back to our original subject of not necessarily considering things from an emotional stand point and just simply the facts in the word. I think a good question was posed earlier: What determines (and it should come from God's word and not your opinions please) something to be appropriate for our lives and God's praise and service and not to be worldly? Also, what makes something to be worldly?

Anyone??

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If people are staring down at their songbooks lifelessly and singing the words out of duty' date=' they are basically doing so in vain. In the same respect, if they are lifting their hands and singing out to make themselves appear "in tune to the Holy Spirit" (as I have heard some charasmatics put it) or to make themselves feel good, they are also in vain. [/quote']


:amen::goodpost: At least, this "anyone" LOL...believes this in her "heart of hearts."


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I don't know anything about a group that calls itself Conservative, but the word as used by most here would mean a believer that sticks close to the Bible, does his best to make sure his standards and beliefs are solidly in line with God's Word - as opposed to a liberal, which usually means someone who doesn't take the Bible literally, has no Biblical standards (ie. loose standards), explains away Bible doctrine and Bible passages (eg. not six literal days of creation, listens to secular rock, form-fitting/immodest clothing, etc.).

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A liberal is someone who does not take the Bible literally and who does not see the entire Bible as something that is applicable to our life. That being the case, the term "liberal" is thrown around far too often because most people who are accused of being liberal are not liberal at all. Going to the movies or listening to rock music doesn't mean they don't take the Bible seriously and attempt to apply it to every aspect of their life.

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The first organization of Conservative Baptists was the Conservative Baptist Foreign Mission Society (CBFMS), now called WorldVenture, formed in Chicago, Illinois in 1943. The Conservative Baptist Association of America was organized in Atlantic City, New Jersey in 1947. The Association now operates under the name CBAmerica. The Conservative Baptist Association emerged as part of the continuing fundamentalist/modernist controversy within the Northern Baptist Convention. The forming churches were fundamental/conservative churches that had remained in cooperation with the Northern Baptist Convention after other churches had left, such as those that formed the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches. At the 1946 NBC meeting, the old convention made it clear that it would not allow a competing missionary agency to operate within it. Churches withdrew, forming the new association, and hundreds of others withdrew in the following years. The conservatives were in the majority in Minnesota and Arizona, and the Northern Baptists lost those state agencies. The movement presently supports three national agencies - CBAmerica, WorldVenture (formerly CBFMS, then CBInternational), and the Mission To The Americas (formerly Conservative Baptist Home Mission Society).

CBAmerica is a network of churches and ministries, committed to evangelization and church planting. Though they work in cooperation, each individual church is autonomous. Conservative Baptists also cooperate with institutions of higher learning in the field of education, as well as promoting youth and women's ministries. In 2003, the Association has over 1200 churches and over 200,000 members.

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Molly,

No, I"m not from Japan.....but I served in the US Military there on Okinawa. My wife and I got saved at the same preaching service 29 years ago. We were baptized that night and Lord's been working on me since. The church was a missionary church to the military and local nationals. At the time it was BIMI and it was Pastor Ed Gibson at Maranatha Baptist Church (they are celebrating 40 years in September).

Peace! TRC

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I understand the notion that a person often displays what is in their heart, but Kevin there are verses in the Bible that also tell us to be sober. I am a much more serious person at church than at home. If you were to see me singing at church would my nose be buried in my hymnal--most likely, unless I'm distracted and I'm singing it from memory. You see, I like to read each and every word as I sing, and take it in and think about it while I sing it. All those hymns full of doctine, as you called it, speak to me and I like to sing them with an agreement in my mind and my spirit. I often find myself saying "Amen" in my mind to the words of a song or praying and thanking the Lord for saving me, for who He is etc. I don't know, maybe I'm weird, but I think there are a lot of other people who do the same thing. I feel you would have misjudged my heart had you been in one of our services and looked over at my "outward appearance". Additionally, if you'd happen to catch me looking around with a smile........I would definitely not been at my most spiritual. Like those choruses you were speaking of, much of our hymns speak of God's power, goodness, and majesty (which are also "doctrine" :wink ). Many hymns speak also of God's great mercy and grace, His redemptive power and victory He has given us over our wretched sinful state etc. Choruses tend to leave much out about sin and salvation. I'm not sure why that is, but I definitely prefer all of the truths that are expressed in the ol' hymns. One other thought, I've been in churches who've done choruses, too......yes, you may see a few people shed a few tears while they are raising their hands, swaying to the music etc, but if the preaching or reading of God's Word doesn't drive that same person to their knees in tears once in a while, then something is wrong. No, we don't have to see it--it can be in secret, but I get a little upset that (and I'm not saying you're implying or saying this) when people will defend choruses as being more spiritual and "real" and turn around and say that "invitations" are of no profit and are for show. If we are going to be moved or convicted by the Holy Spirit, it would make more sense that it would happen because of the preaching of God's Word more than by music. Music does a good job of preparing our hearts for the message, though! :thumb

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Thanks, LuAnne. :thumb I believe that my "mustard seed" was planted when my mother enrolled me in Nursery School at the age of 3 (1967)...in a Northern Baptist Church (hubby and I are moving to that town...at the end of September.) It is the next town over from us, in fact....and, is closer to our IFB church. We will be living in the country more...as country as you can get in Cuyahoga County, now. Yahooo!

John D. Rockefeller, Jr. was also a Northern Baptist. They were huge in Cleveland, OH as well as Chicago, Illinois...as I can see. BTW, some of my first cousins from New Jersey are American Baptists (a stem-off of the Northern Baptists.)

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I understand the notion that a person often displays what is in their heart, but Kevin there are verses in the Bible that also tell us to be sober. I am a much more serious person at church than at home. If you were to see me singing at church would my nose be buried in my hymnal--most likely, unless I'm distracted and I'm singing it from memory. You see, I like to read each and every word as I sing, and take it in and think about it while I sing it. All those hymns full of doctine, as you called it, speak to me and I like to sing them with an agreement in my mind and my spirit. I often find myself saying "Amen" in my mind to the words of a song or praying and thanking the Lord for saving me, for who He is etc. I don't know, maybe I'm weird, but I think there are a lot of other people who do the same thing. I feel you would have misjudged my heart had you been in one of our services and looked over at my "outward appearance". Additionally, if you'd happen to catch me looking around with a smile........I would definitely not been at my most spiritual. Like those choruses you were speaking of, much of our hymns speak of God's power, goodness, and majesty (which are also "doctrine" :wink ). Many hymns speak also of God's great mercy and grace, His redemptive power and victory He has given us over our wretched sinful state etc. Choruses tend to leave much out about sin and salvation. I'm not sure why that is, but I definitely prefer all of the truths that are expressed in the ol' hymns. One other thought, I've been in churches who've done choruses, too......yes, you may see a few people shed a few tears while they are raising their hands, swaying to the music etc, but if the preaching or reading of God's Word doesn't drive that same person to their knees in tears once in a while, then something is wrong. No, we don't have to see it--it can be in secret, but I get a little upset that (and I'm not saying you're implying or saying this) when people will defend choruses as being more spiritual and "real" and turn around and say that "invitations" are of no profit and are for show. If we are going to be moved or convicted by the Holy Spirit, it would make more sense that it would happen because of the preaching of God's Word more than by music. Music does a good job of preparing our hearts for the message, though! :thumb
SPOT ON!!! :clap: :amen:

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:amen: :smile Now, I know where you are coming from, trc. Thank you. :thumb Also, thank you for serving in our military. WTG...brother! My church supports---The Sage Family (Missionaries to the U.S. military in Yokosuka, Kanagawa, Japan...BIMI.) :pray for Mark and Stephanie and their 3 beautiful daughters. Bro. Mark preached last Fall at our Missionary Conference. Also, Randy and Kelly Johnson in Okinawa, Japan. :pray Their beautiful daughter is currently attending Hyles-Anderson College. :thumb I am very familiar with Maranthia Baptist Church...as well. We have had missionaries come from Maranthia to preach at Columbia Road Baptist Church. Praise God for His children. :wave:

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SPOT ON!!! :clap::amen:



:amen::goodpost: Absolutely, ITA...bzmomo7. :smile I believe someone has answered the question. :thumb

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I don't remember any verses telling us to be sober in a literal sense. There are far more verses encouraging us to rejoice and "clap our hands" and shout to the Lord than any that tell us we should be serious. If that's how you worship, then that is fine, though I don't know if that would be considered worship, necessarily. I'm just not sure how a person who is truly in a spirit of worship can sit as if nothing is touching them and exhibit no expression at all.

Music was often an expression of praise and worship in the OT, especially. It wasn't to "prepare hearts for the sermon." The music itself was the worship and adoration of God. That's especially why I don't see the need for songs to be about salvation or conviction of sin, that's not what music is for. At least, that's not what worship or praise music is for. Praise and worship music puts all the focus on God and His glory and in worshipping Him, I think that's a positive thing.

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I said once before that a lot of hymns are about doctrine whereas most P&W songs are focusing on the glory and majesty and goodness of God. I see something real in the way people worship God in a contemporary service that I don't see in most traditional services. It seems like people actually care about what they're singing.


The reason for that is this:

"Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

We see from this that one of the primary purposes of godly music is to teach and admonish the hearers. If the words to a song do not do that it really isn't a particularly godly song.

Every song that I can recall from scripture, is either teaching doctrine directly, or is recounting various deeds of the Lord, and thus still teaching much doctrine, but indirectly.

What we don't see in scriptural songs is something which is very common in much CCM, mindless repetition with the focus on the music so as to induce emotion, or vague wordings with only token acknowledgement to bible truths.

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Kevin does have a point. There is no Scripture that says music should prepare our hearts for a sermon.

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