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Willo

No One Can Come to Jesus Christ, Unless...

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You are proving that the heresy of Calvinism cannot be "proven" without either taking Scripture out of context or correcting the King James Bible. You're saying that the King James Bible does not mean what it says. If you keep using that to defend your doctrine, then no one here is going to listen to you because the majority of people on this board believe that the King James Bible is perfect and that it DOES mean what it says, IN ENGLISH.


Sorry for only replying until now, been quite busy I'm afraid.

Well, let's see, how should I respond? First of all, "Calvinism" is simply a word that is used to describe the doctrines of grace. Poor old Calvin has had his name tagged to the doctrines of grace and he gets put over the coals for it. The doctrines of grace are found throughout the Bible and so to say that they are heresy is, well, foolish. Sorry if that offends you.

With regards to your view on King James only-ism, well, I have to say I've heard some strong arguments in my time but this one really is lacking in weight. To say that God has preserved HIs word in English is just plain arrogance. He has preserved His word, for sure, but He HAS NOT preserved it in English. Let me ask you a question. According to the KJV, the whole world lies in wickedness (1 John 5:19). Does that mean you, too, lie in wickedness? Since you elevate the English language to the psoition of God's inspired, infallible, inerrant word, then that would mean that you DO lie in wickedness. If that is the case my advice to you would be that you repent of your sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

As it happens I do admire very much the KJV. I enjoy using it in my reading of the Scriptures. I think it is a very accurate translation and its literary style is beautiful. But it is still a translation from the languages God chose for HIs word to be originally written in. And so, the argument is settled. The KJV is a translation of the word of God and needs to be treated as such.

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Yes, the whole world does lie in wickedness. However, we are not of the world. We are saved by the blood of Christ, making us part of His body. Therefore the King James Bible is RIGHT, and you are WRONG.

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Sorry for only replying until now, been quite busy I'm afraid.

Well, let's see, how should I respond? First of all, "Calvinism" is simply a word that is used to describe the doctrines of grace. Poor old Calvin has had his name tagged to the doctrines of grace and he gets put over the coals for it. The doctrines of grace are found throughout the Bible and so to say that they are heresy is, well, foolish. Sorry if that offends you.

With regards to your view on King James only-ism, well, I have to say I've heard some strong arguments in my time but this one really is lacking in weight. To say that God has preserved HIs word in English is just plain arrogance. He has preserved His word, for sure, but He HAS NOT preserved it in English. Let me ask you a question. According to the KJV, the whole world lies in wickedness (1 John 5:19). Does that mean you, too, lie in wickedness? Since you elevate the English language to the psoition of God's inspired, infallible, inerrant word, then that would mean that you DO lie in wickedness. If that is the case my advice to you would be that you repent of your sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

As it happens I do admire very much the KJV. I enjoy using it in my reading of the Scriptures. I think it is a very accurate translation and its literary style is beautiful. But it is still a translation from the languages God chose for HIs word to be originally written in. And so, the argument is settled. The KJV is a translation of the word of God and needs to be treated as such.


This is a strawman argument. Just because someone believes the King James Bible is the perfect translation of God's word for English speaking people, doesn't make them a "King James Onlyist". No doubt, the Textus Receptus has been accurately and inerrantly translated into many other languages. We simply believe that God has provided and perfectly preserved a translation for English speaking people....and that translation is the the KJB.


According to the KJV, the whole world lies in wickedness (1 John 5:19). Does that mean you, too, lie in wickedness? Since you elevate the English language to the psoition of God's inspired, infallible, inerrant word, then that would mean that you DO lie in wickedness. If that is the case my advice to you would be that you repent of your sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.


Sir, I can show you also, in the King James Bible, that your heart....YOUR....heart is deceitful and wicked....even if you are saved.

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Yes' date=' the whole world does lie in wickedness. However, we are not of the world. We are saved by the blood of Christ, making us part of His body. Therefore the King James Bible is RIGHT, and you are WRONG.[/quote']

If you are going to be consistent with the proof texts you use to refute the doctrines of grace, namely that words like "all" and "whole" always means "all" and "whole" then you have a problem, because it is clear that the verse says that the whole world lieth in wickedness. I understand that Christians are not of the world. That is how we can look at this verse and understand that Christians do not lie in wickedness. If you can use deductive logic with this verse, why then do you struggle to do that with others?

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Ok, this should be simple to explain...

Let's do the math.

the whole world = the world ? Christians

Now take a look at this:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

all men = all men

There is nothing in the Bible that says any man (or woman) on earth is excluded from the phrase "all men".

Simple enough for you? If you can't understand that, I don't think I can help you.

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Hey KJB Princess! (Good post!)



So the "all" in Romans 3:23 " For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" must mean the so-called "elect"??

(sheeeze!!)


:coffee

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Hey KJB Princess! (Good post!)



So the "all" in Romans 3:23 " For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" must mean the so-called "elect"??

(sheeeze!!)


:coffee


Even a 5-yr-old could figure that out. This is just too easy... it's actually kinda fun. :lol

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Hey KJB Princess! (Good post!)



So the "all" in Romans 3:23 " For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" must mean the so-called "elect"??

(sheeeze!!)


:coffee

Of course it doesn't mean just the elect. Calvinists don't deny that all men are destitute and sinful. That is affirmed in Calvinism. All men are without hope and inability of salvation of themselves.

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Whether I answer or not depends on why you're asking. Are you saying that if I disagree, I should just go along with you guys? :wink
I'll answer you, anyway. No, I don't agree with Calvinism. I think there is some predestination involved in salvation, simply because it's in Ephesians 1. The extent of that, I'm not sure and I'm not really concerned about it. I'm more of a middle-of-the-road person. I don't hold to either extreme and I'm content to wait until Heaven to find out. But seeing as it's not an issue that affects one's salvation, I don't see the point of always attacking it, especially with weak and ignorant arguments. I don't say ignorant as an insult but in the true sense of the word- not having a real knowledge of what Calvinists actually believe.

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Whether I answer or not depends on why you're asking. Are you saying that if I disagree, I should just go along with you guys? :wink
I'll answer you, anyway. No, I don't agree with Calvinism. I think there is some predestination involved in salvation, simply because it's in Ephesians 1. The extent of that, I'm not sure and I'm not really concerned about it. I'm more of a middle-of-the-road person. I don't hold to either extreme and I'm content to wait until Heaven to find out. But seeing as it's not an issue that affects one's salvation, I don't see the point of always attacking it, especially with weak and ignorant arguments. I don't say ignorant as an insult but in the true sense of the word- not having a real knowledge of what Calvinists actually believe.


I was just curious. You seem to be always sticking up for the ones promoting Calvinism lately... so I was just wondering if you were becoming one of them.

Thanks for explaining that.

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I'm a teacher so my natural instincts are to correct an error when I see one, whether the error is in the method or the subject itself. :wink
I also have a lot of respect for those that believe in Calvinism. Most of my friends are Calvinistic in beliefs, actually. I do believe probably a little bit more in the sovereignty and will of God than many free-willers, though.

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[quote="KJB_Princess"][quote="Rob Hughes"][quote="KJB_Princess"]Yes, the whole world does lie in wickedness. However, we are not of the world. We are saved by the blood of Christ, making us part of His body. Therefore the King James Bible is RIGHT, and you are WRONG.[/quote]

If you are going to be consistent with the proof texts you use to refute the doctrines of grace, namely that words like "all" and "whole" always means "all" and "whole" then you have a problem, because it is clear that the verse says that the whole world lieth in wickedness. I understand that Christians are not of the world. That is how we can look at this verse and understand that Christians do not lie in wickedness. If you can use deductive logic with this verse, why then do you struggle to do that with others?[/quote]

Ok, this should be simple to explain...

Let's do the math.

[color=#800040]the whole world[/color] = [color=#800040]the world[/color] ? [color=#008000]Christians[/color]

Now take a look at this:

[color=#000080]John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw [b]all men[/b] unto me.[/color]

[color=#BF0000]all men[/color] = [color=#BF0000]all men[/color]

There is nothing in the Bible that says any man (or woman) on earth is excluded from the phrase "all men".

Simple enough for you? If you can't understand that, I don't think I can help you.[/quote]

Okay, first of all, let's put our swords down, there's no need to go for each other's throats on this. Agreed? Sorry for some of my comments thus far that have been facetious at times. Secondly, I'm hopeless at Maths!! Lol!!

In Scripture "all" does not always mean "all." If it did we could say that every single person from Jerusalem and Judea was baptised in the Jordan. Somehow I very much doubt the religious Pharisees waded into the river Jordan. It's simply common sense to conclude that sometimes the word "all" literally refers to all and sometimes it does not. The same can be said for other words in Scripture.

With reference to John 12:32, to say that, when Christ is lifted up, all will be drawn to Him, well this cannot be true. If it were true then all would be drawn to Christ and all would be saved. Thus we can conclude in this particular context that "all" is not refering to literaly "all."

The Greek word for "draw" in this verse is the same word used when speaking of a net being dragged onto shore. This verse is not refering to people who are simply wooingly brought to Christ so that they can then say "yay or nay." This is refering to people who are irresistibly drawn to Christ.

As Calvinists we are often heavily derided because we speak of the atonement as being limited. However, we do not limit it's power, we simply limit it's extent (scope). To say that a person's salvation is ultimately deteremined by that person's choice, is to say that Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross does not secure anybodys salvation , it simply makes salvation possible. Christ came to seek and save the lost. He did not come to help the lost. No, He came to seek and save the lost.

To rob Christ of what He did on the cross is tragic. He saves us on the cross.

Charles Spurgeon once said,

"?I would rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than a universal atonement that is not efficacioius for anybody, except the will of men be added to it.? (Sermons, Vol. 4, p. 70)

God's sovereignty is not limited by man's free will. If it is then man is sovereign and God is not.

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:hijack: I am sorry to interrupt here. I Know little to nothing about Calvinism. Except, the comment that my son made while he was living in North Carolina and attended a church with his friends that taught Calvinism. See...I don't even know the name of such churches. :smile Anyway, my question is this? As some of you know, my in-laws left the RCC a long time ago to go to a Brethren Church. Then, they left there b/c of the fact that they didn't have just one pastor (a panel of pastors...I guess), they were starting to serve alcoholic wine during the Lord's Supper, and the bread was leavened? Does this sound right? Well, I don't know all of the details, except these in particular. They have been IFB for years now. I went from the RCC to the IFB in one fell swoop. LOL.


So, my question is this? Is there a connection between the Brethren church and Calvinism? The reason I am asking is b/c my mom has been in a Brethren nursing home since February of this year. They have a Baptist preacher (I have to find out what type of Baptist preacher Brother Eric is), they have Brethren worship services, Baptist services, and RCC services in the home. Can someone help me on this issue with the Brethren in relation to Calvinism? She has a mix there...plus her Judaism from birth, although she grew up in the RCC. I don't want to use swords. LOL. I would just like some feedback from anyone that knows anything about Calvinism and Brethren...if there is actually a connection. Thank you in advance. :thumb

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Draw
From Webster's 1828 English Dictionary

6. To attract; to cause to move or tend towards itself; as a magnet or other attracting body is said to draw it.
7. To attract; to cause to turn towards itself; to engage; as, a beauty or a popular speaker draws the eyes of an assembly, or draws their attention.
25. To allure; to entice; to lead by persuasion or moral influence; to excite to motion.
26. To lead, as a motive; to induce to move.
27. To induce; to persuade; to attract towards; in a very general sense.

God "drew" me when His Holy Spirit convicted my wicked heart of sin, righteousness, and judgement through the "foolishness" of preaching. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. I'm sorry man, but I don't know Greek.

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ITA! That is b/c the majority of us in this world are simple-minded. :smile I am sorry to interject this...but, it is true. We should keep things as simple as we can, IMHO. The world makes things more complex for us, sadly. :sad

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Just reading all this has simply exhausted me! Do we all (people here discussing this topic!!) believe it is Christ (God came down to earth in a fleshly form) who calls you to repentance? (meaning you realize your a sinner and ask for forgiveness then you OBey His Word in daily action not just by mouth! )???? Then we have no prOBlem if we agree He does the work of salvation, He decides how to mold His clay and He does the saving (we have no righteousness in and of ourselves) and He's our righteousness because when The Father looks at us (once we've come and repented and then we are naturally OBeying out of love for Him but let's not forget He loved us first!!) He see's Christ's righteousness because we are covered by the Blood of the Lamb. All are Children of Wrath until we recieve His gift of salvation THEN your His CHild! We are saved by faith not by works. This is a gift we can never earn this is why I am praying for all eye's to clearly see His Word! His by Grace

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In order for someone to be saved, they need to hear the Word of God (specifically the Gospel) and have the Holy Spirit do His work of conviction and enlightenment. Then man has a choice (ie. the freewill) to respond to the light given - yes, even respond to the Gospel - THEN AND ONLY THEN is he regenerated/born again. The Calvinists (even in this thread) teach that man is regenerated FIRST and is then able to respond to the Gospel, but that is putting the cart before the horse and teaching that man must be born again (ie. that is what regenerated means) before he can be born again - hm, double regeneration anyone?

God calls ALL men through the Gospel, but it is their choice to respond positively or negatively to it.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the OBtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Funny how Calvinists can teach that God chooses some people to Heaven/salvation, but get upset when you expose the other side of that same coin: ie. that He would therefore by default have chosen the rest of mankind to Hell. Good thing the Bible does not teach either! There is nothing whatsoever about anyone being chose to Heaven or Hell, salvation or damnation - instead what it does teach is that those who come to Christ (ie. all those "in Christ) are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, predestined to have an inheritance in Christ, and be predestined as a believer to have eternal life in Christ.

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Jerry, You had me all the way to the very, very end. I think it's just my not understanding what your saying. What do you mean by( ie. all those "in Christ") "are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, predestined to have inheritance in Christ, and be predestined as a believer to have eternal life in Christ?" Please just explain what you meant here without going into another topic so I can understand. Thank you! His by Grace

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The Bible uses the phrase "in Christ" to refer to those who trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. All those "in Christ" have been predestined for those things I mentioned above. I just didn't want some Calvinist to go, See, there I told you, God predestined some to eternal life - He predestines some to be saved. So I was clarifying whom He predestined to eternal life - those who had already trusted in Christ.

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Predestination has nothing to do with salvation.
"Predestination" always refers to a group...never individuals. "The Elect", in this context, also refers to a group. Therefore, when you become a member of "the elect", the "destiny" of "the elect" becomes your destiny. And the destiny of these elect is to be conformed to the image of Christ.
God knows who will be saved and become a member of "the elect"; but the choice to accept Christ and become a part of the elect, is yours to make.

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Ephesians 1:11

John 15:16

Philippians 1:29

Romans 8:29-30

Proverbs 16:4

Romans 9:10-24


I think you will find that every mention of "the elect" and "predestination" is addressing or referring to a group...never to individuals. The verses you posted do...........

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have OBtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Proverbs 16:4

Romans 9:10-24

Try reading Proverbs 16:4 in context with verses 2-5. I believe t's basically saying that the wicked won't escape the judgement of God. God has made it sure that they will give an account to Him.

And as to Romans 9.....both Esau and Pharaoh had a free will choice to accept or reject God.

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I'm not sure how it being addressed individually or according to groups affects anything but okay, let's just go verse by verse.

If you don't mind, I'm going to replace predestined with chosen for clarity sake.

Ephesians 1:11 - This verse says that we were chosen according to the purpose/will of God, not according to anything else, including our free will. It wasn't according to our free will but according to God's will.

John 15:16 - This one's pretty clear. We(using a plural pronoun is okay with me) are chosen by God and He ordains us to do His work. Those who teach free will would agree with the latter but, for some reason, have prOBlems accepting the former, despite both being in the same verse.

Philippians 1:29 - God gives us the ability to believe.

Romans 8:29-30 - This passage says that God knew us and chose us and after He had chosen us, He called us to become His sons and daughters.

Proverbs 16:4 - Read in context yes, read out of context yes, it's the same verse with the same meaning. I read it both in context and as an individual verse. It is saying that the wicked were made for destruction according to His purpose.

Romans 9 - You say they both had a freewill, you did. But that is in direct contradiction of what God says in that whole chapter. What God says is that before Esau was even born, before he even had a chance to know right or wrong, God had chosen JacOB and rejected Esau. I didn't say it, John Piper didn't say it, John Calvin didn't say it, God said it. And of course, we would like to say, "that's not fair!" But God, in his infinite wisdom, addressed that in verse 14 by telling us He will have mercy or not have mercy on whom He chooses. Then, in our human nature, we say, "how can you punish them when you made them that way?" And God addressed that one as well in verses 19 - 24 with the illustration of the potter and how it is unreasonable for us to question how He makes one to glory and another to destruction. No, we can't understand it, but how can we question God?

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