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Willo

No One Can Come to Jesus Christ, Unless...

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It's amazing how we can tell someone is a calvinist' date=' COC, catholic, etc.. from their posts without them saying so. I read their posts, and I know exactly what they are.[/quote']

So true, they try to take the free will that God gives man away from man and therefore makes a robot out of him.

The thing about it, there are many who believe that stuff.

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What support can you give that trembling at the thought of judgment is evidence that you are being drawn by the Holy Ghost? Do not confuse being convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit as the same as being drawn by the Holy Spirit.
Because that is the way the Holy Spirit draws. Sir, If you were not convicted of your sin, did not acknowledge the righteousness of God(He is Holy, mercifuf, gave Himself for you and loves you) and the judgment of God(realize there was something to be saved from), you didn't get saved. The Comforter, the Holy Spirit, is God, the third Person of the Trinity. The Bible says that the Comforter convicts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. The Bible says that faith cometh by hearing. This man, Felix, was being convicted by the Holy Spirit as he HEARD the Gospel.. Why would the Holy Spirit work his work on this man if this man could not be saved anyway? Why did Felix not get saved? Because God allows a man to say YES or NO.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


We are drawn (lit. in Greek, dragged) to Jesus by the Father through the power of the Spirit. Felix trembled because he had conviction. This was made manifest through the use of the law that appealed to his conscience. There was conviction of sin, as there ought to be, however, had God so regenerated his mind he would have run to the cross. Instead he ran from the cross. The law does its convicting work, but unless the Holy Spirit so transforms the heart and the mind no man will surrender his will to the will of God.

God bless,
Rob


So let me get this straight.....
God decided, before the foundation of the world, that His purpose and plan for Felix was Hell. But just to be cruel, though knowing Felix had "total inability" to respond, God toyed with Felix's Conscience a little bit, and even though Felix had a "will", he was totally without the ability to use that will to simply say "yes" to God?

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God may know; but we don't ....... so keep on preaching the Gospel and obeying the great commission!



:amen::goodpost: trc. :smile I have heard so many believers say that they "give up" on people and thus stop witnessing to them. What?! There is hope for everyone, b/c we are human beings, and we can't possibly know the mind of God. We have no idea when or if that glorious day will come for the lost to come to Christ through faith. If believers ( not just Baptists) gave up on witnessing to my wretched soul. Well...you know? :loco

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So let me get this straight.....
God decided, before the foundation of the world, that His purpose and plan for Felix was Hell. And the reason God wanted Felix in Hell, was for His Glory? But just to be cruel, though knowing Felix had "total inability" to respond, God toyed with Felix's Conscience a little bit, all the while denying Felix a will to make a choice?



LOL. I would say that Satan, the world, and the flesh of Felix "toyed with his Conscience a little bit." I believe it is called having a free-will. :thumb Felix made the choice himself, and his choice was to chose to follow in the path of wickedness and everlasting death.


Revelation 21:6...And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. KJV.

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Why would the Holy Spirit work his work on this man if this man could not be saved anyway? Why did Felix not get saved? Because God allows a man to say YES or NO.


I do not deny human volition. Man has a responsibility to repent and believe the gospel, that much is very clear in Scripture. However, what you seem to be fighting against is the sovereignty of God. The fact remains that we have the Lord's own words, "...All that the Father giveth me shall come to me," and "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him."

Scripture explicitly teaches both human volition and divine sovereignty. Consider Romans 9:11-13 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." - emphasis added.

God chooses people according to His own purposes; He calls people, but not according to their good or bad works. I do not negate the fact that man has a responsibility to repent and believe. In Matthew 23:37 Jesus said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" - emphasis added. Clearly there is responsibility. But, Scripture is equally clear that God has mercy on whom He will have mercy and He has compassion on whom He will have compassion. It is explicit. I have yet to meet a Christian who does not believe that God is sovereign. However, the pervasive view in the church today is that God's sovereignty is limited by human freedom. That is just not true. If this were the case then it would not be God who is sovereign, rather it would be us who is sovereign. Scripture teaches both human volition and divine sovereignty. Christians need to learn to deal with that.

So let me get this straight.....
God decided, before the foundation of the world, that His purpose and plan for Felix was Hell. But just to be cruel, though knowing Felix had "total inability" to respond, God toyed with Felix's Conscience a little bit, and even though Felix had a "will", he was totally without the ability to use that will to simply say "yes" to God?


First of all, Scripture does not teach double predestination. No one is predestined to go to hell. Man is born in sin and is fallen in both original sin as well as his actual sins, and that is why he goes to hell. God predestines His elect to be saved, He does not predestine anyone to go to hell. Consider Romans 9:21-24

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Note that God has endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. He has not predestined them to destruction, He has endured with much longsuffering. God does not predestine some for heaven and some for hell. All born into this world are already hell bound. God very graciously predestines some to be saved, i.e. His elect. Why does He not elect all? Well, that is something you will have to ask Him one day.

Concerning the second part of what you are saying, it is not about God "toying" with anyone's conscience. The call to repent goes out to everyone, not just the elect. Why bother if only the elect will be saved? Well, it is an indictment upon the world that they hear the gospel and do not respond. All in hell one day have no to blame but themselves. All in heaven one day have no one to boast in but Christ.

God bless,
Rob

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"And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me."

That's not a generic "men." All means all, and that's all all means.

Calvinism is false and unbiblical, and John Calvin is likely roasting in Hell because of the wickedness he believed.

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"And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me."

That's not a generic "men." All means all, and that's all all means.

Calvinism is false and unbiblical, and John Calvin is likely roasting in Hell because of the wickedness he believed.

Even though I aree with you about Calvinism, I really do not see how you can say that Calvin is roasting in Hell. I'll let God decide that, and not me. :cool


Calvinism? Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
God said it, that settles it.

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A little testimony about my 17 year old son and Calvanism. When he went to live with his dad for 1 1/2 years in North Carolina...he was invited to go with friends from school to a Calvinist Church. Having been taken out of the RCC at age 7...learning the IFB doctine, and then going to this church. I wonder, now? He might very well be confused. I remember a phone call from him after he attended this church...and, he was frustrated and crying. He called John Calvin...up "mixed-up" man. He was 15 when he said this. :uuhm: "Out of the mouths of babes" I say with much of what our youth says to us. I should have picked up on it then. :pray for Mark to desire fellowship with the IFB church again.

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So tell me, did Felix the governor have the ability to make the choice to repent and believe the Gospel?


He would only have had the ability if the Lord had regenerated his mind so that he could repent and believe. And yes, he would still have been responsible to do so. Now, you are going to ask me how on earth that could be possible and I am going to tell you that, yes, it is a mystery of Scripture, but just because we cannot explain it, it does not mean we should discard it. After all, it's all in Scripture.

I have found J.I. Packer's book "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God" to be most helpful. Consider the following...

?What is an antinomy? According to The Shorter Oxford Dictionary an antinomy is defined as "a contradiction between conclusions which seem equally logical, reasonable or necessary." For our purposes, however, this definition is not quite accurate; the opening words should read ?an appearance of contradiction,? for the whole point of an antinomy - in theology, at any rate - is that it is not a real contradiction, though it looks like one. It is an apparent incompatibility between two apparent truths. An antinomy exists when a pair of principles stand side by side, seemingly irreconcilable, yet both undeniable. There are cogent reasons for believing each of them; each rests on clear and solid evidence; but it is a mystery to you how they can be squared with each other. You see that each must be true on its own, but you do not see how they can both be true together. Let me give an example. Modern physics faces an antinomy, in this sense, in its study of light. There is cogent evidence to show that light consists of waves, and equally cogent evidence to show that it consists of particles. It is not clear how light can be both waves and particles, but the evidence is there, and so neither view can be ruled out in favour of the other. Neither, however, can be reduced to the other or explained in terms of the other; the two seemingly incompatible positions must be held together, and both must be treated as true. Such a necessity scandalises our tidy minds, no doubt, but there is no help for it if we are to be loyal to the facts.

It appears, therefore, that an antinomy is not the same thing as a paradox. A paradox is a figure of speech, a play on words. It is a form of statement that seems to unite two opposite ideas, or to deny something by the very terms in which it is asserted. Examples of paradoxes in Scripture would be things like, ?Sorrowful, yet always rejoicing... having nothing, and yet possessing all things;? ?when I am weak, then I am strong? (2 Cor. 6:10, 12:10).

What should we do, then, with an antinomy? Accept it for what it is, and learn to live with it. The particular antinomy which concerns us here is the apparent opposition between divine sovereignty and human responsibility, or (putting it more biblically) between what God does as King and what He does as Judge. Scripture teaches that as King, He orders and controls all things, human actions among them, in accordance with His own eternal purpose (Genesis 45:8, 50:20; Proverbs 16:9, 21:1; Matthew 10:29; Acts 4:27; Romans 9:20; Ephesians 1:11).

Scripture also teaches that, as Judge, He holds every man responsible for the choices he makes and the courses of actions he pursues (Matthew 25; Romans 2:1-16; Revelation 20:11-13). Thus, hearers of the gospel are responsible for their reaction; if they reject the good news, they are guilty of unbelief. ?He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God? (John 3:18 ). Again, Paul, entrusted with the gospel, is responsible for preaching it; if he neglects his commission, he is penalized for unfaithfulness. ?For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel!? (1 Corinthians 9:16).

God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are taught us side by side in the same Bible; indeed sometimes even in the same text (Luke 22:22). Both are thus guaranteed to us by the same divine authority; both, therefore, are true. It follows that they must be held together, and not played off against each other. Man is a responsible moral agent, though he is also divinely controlled; man is divinely controlled, though he is also a responsible moral agent. God's sovereignty is a reality, and man's responsibility is a reality too. And so this is the revealed antimony presented to us from Scripture in terms of which we are to do our thinking with regards to evangelism.?

Evangelism And The Sovereignty Of God, Pg. 18, 19, 21, 22, 23

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So Felix had the responsibility to do something he was unable to do?


My brother, you are going to have to come to a position whereby you either have peace with yourself or you have peace with God's Word. We know that Felix has no ability to come to Christ unless the Father draws him. This is in Scripture. We know that man is born dead in sins and so is a slave to sin and must be set free. We know this. The Bible makes it clear. Does the Bible also teach human responsibility? Yes!! It teaches both divine sovereignty and human volition. There is no escaping that. But they do not harmonise. I appreciate that. So let's teach them side by side, for the Bible does that, so why can't we do the same??? If we try and force them to harmonise we risk destroying both.

Question 9 of the Heidelberg Catechism (1619) asks the following question and gives us the answer...

9. Q. Is God, then, not unjust by requiring in His law what man cannot do?
A. No, for God so created man that he was able to do it.[1] But man, at the instigation of the devil,[2] in deliberate disobedience[3] robbed himself and all his descendants of these gifts.[4]
[1] Gen. 1:31. [2] Gen. 3:13; John 8:44; I Tim. 2:13, 14. [3] Gen. 3:6. [4] Rom. 5:12, 18, 19.

God bless,

Rob

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My brother, you are going to have to come to a position whereby you either have peace with yourself or you have peace with God's Word. We know that Felix has no ability to come to Christ unless the Father draws him. This is in Scripture. We know that man is born dead in sins and so is a slave to sin and must be set free. We know this. The Bible makes it clear. Does the Bible also teach human responsibility? Yes!! It teaches both divine sovereignty and human volition. There is no escaping that. But they do not harmonise. I appreciate that. So let's teach them side by side, for the Bible does that, so why can't we do the same??? If we try and force them to harmonise we risk destroying both.

Question 9 of the Heidelberg Catechism (1619) asks the following question and gives us the answer...

9. Q. Is God, then, not unjust by requiring in His law what man cannot do?
A. No, for God so created man that he was able to do it.[1] But man, at the instigation of the devil,[2] in deliberate disobedience[3] robbed himself and all his descendants of these gifts.[4]
[1] Gen. 1:31. [2] Gen. 3:13; John 8:44; I Tim. 2:13, 14. [3] Gen. 3:6. [4] Rom. 5:12, 18, 19.

God bless,

Rob


You have already been shown, in the Scriptures that Felix was convicted of his sin, and the righteousness demand of a holy God and drawn by the Holy Spirit. And the Scripture clearly shows that Felix rejected the Gospel of his own volition. If you are unable to see it, you are blind. If you CAN see it and choose to deny it anyway, you deny the Bible and are a false teacher. The type of Divine Sovereignty that you seem to conceive of is not in the Bible and Calvinism is a false teaching. If you are simply blind, I pray that God will open your eyes. If you willfully continue to propagate it, I believe God will judge you for it.

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You have already been shown, in the Scriptures that Felix was convicted of his sin, and the righteousness demand of a holy God and drawn by the Holy Spirit. And the Scripture clearly shows that Felix rejected the Gospel of his own volition. If you are unable to see it, you are blind. If you CAN see it and choose to deny it anyway, you deny the Bible and are a false teacher. The type of Divine Sovereignty that you seem to conceive of is not in the Bible and Calvinism is a false teaching. If you are simply blind, I pray that God will open your eyes. If you willfully continue to propagate it, I believe God will judge you for it.


This is staring to get a little silly so I am going to try and say this as simply as I possibly can. The Bible teaches both divine sovereignty and human volition. I will not back down on that because it is so apparently clear in Scripture. Now, just because no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him, that does not excuse man of his responsibility to come (I cannot explain that but the Bible teaches it so that settles it). If it was not the Lord's good will to regenerate Felix's mind so that he would repent and believe then that is the Lord's perogative. In my mind I would wish that the Lord would regenerate everybody and that everybody would come to Him. But the Bible tells us that not all will come. I cannot import my desires and wants into Scripture, and neither can you. You must understand that man's will is in bondage to sin. If you deny this then your fight is with the Bible and not me. You could say that man does have a "free will." He is free to lie, steal, cheat, blaspheme, etc. He will act in accordance with his nature. The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9). You cannot get more wicked than desperatly wicked. Since the disposition of man's heart is sold completely to sin it is necessary that the Lord regenerate him before he is able to repent. There is no other way. If you say that man can choose God while he is still dead in sin then you disagree with the apostle's Paul assesment of the human nature, namely that "nothing good dwells in us" (Rom. 7:18).

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Now, just because no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him, that does not excuse man of his responsibility to come (I cannot explain that but the Bible teaches it so that settles it). If it was not the Lord's good will to regenerate Felix's mind so that he would repent and believe then that is the Lord's perogative.


You are correct that no one could come to salvation if God didn't draw them, but on the other hand:

"John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Jesus is in the Father, the Father is in him, and he came to die for the sin of the whole world according to the Fathers will. By dieing on the cross Christ paid the debt and made the first move toward redemption for all men. So it seems that drawing of the Father has, and is, being done for all men... All they have to do is accept the free gift. Remember scripture says that the lost are without excuse, no free will would be a pretty good excuse...

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When we read the Bible in context we gain a fuller understanding of what particular passages and verses are saying. The Bible says that the whole world lies in wickedness (1 John 5:19), but we know this is not talking about the "whole" world, since Christians are no longer slaves to sin but slaves to righteousness. In Scripture the word "all" does not always mean "all." Similarly, the words "whole world" do not always refer to the whole world. You cannot take a Bible verse that is written in English and make a deduction as to the real meaning of the verse. You must look at the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.

With regards to the verse you have cited, consider the word "all" and the definitions that Strong's Lexicon gives. Pay careful attention to examples he gives regarding the occurance of the word in Scripture.

1) individually
each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

2) collectively
some of all types

... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan."Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

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In Scripture the word "all" does not always mean "all." Similarly, the words "whole world" do not always refer to the whole world. You cannot take a Bible verse that is written in English and make a deduction as to the real meaning of the verse. You must look at the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek.


You are proving that the heresy of Calvinism cannot be "proven" without either taking Scripture out of context or correcting the King James Bible. You're saying that the King James Bible does not mean what it says. If you keep using that to defend your doctrine, then no one here is going to listen to you because the majority of people on this board believe that the King James Bible is perfect and that it DOES mean what it says, IN ENGLISH.

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You are proving that the heresy of Calvinism cannot be "proven" without either taking Scripture out of context or correcting the King James Bible. You're saying that the King James Bible does not mean what it says. If you keep using that to defend your doctrine, then no one here is going to listen to you because the majority of people on this board believe that the King James Bible is perfect and that it DOES mean what it says, IN ENGLISH.


Amen!

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Amen!


And double Amen! BTW MR. Hughes, could you explain for us with Scripture to prove what this verse means:
" And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world." [i JOHN 2:2]

Do not go outside of the KJV, keep your Scriptures in context, and make sure they are very clear to prove YOUR point.


Also, if I may can I ask a question, to you since you are clearly promoting your belief in Calvinism.

Does Calvinism/Calvinists believe in the God of the KJV? If so then, according to Calvinists, even little precious babies, children, and aborted(murdered) souls of babies are sent to hell- in what is called God's good pleasure- while some are spared the flames of eternal hell, this still in accordance to Calvimism's belief that it is God's good pleasure to do so.

Does that sound like the God of the KJV Bible? To send babies to hell - IN HIS PLEASURE?

But then we are reminded of Jesus ( who is Jesus? God of course right?) when he said the following words :
" Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God."

and do not forget the God of the KJV Bible is not a respector of persons:
"For there is no respect of persons with God." Romans 2:11.

Even in the remote corners of the majority of people's hearts that are lost and have not expeirenced the love of the Lord Jesus Christ, there is the thought and reaction of horror at the thought of a god (yes, notice the little "g") who would cast a poor helpless soul of an infant, baby, child into the flames of hell and call it "pleasure". This Mr. Hughes, is not the God of the KJV, instead it is a brutal, heartless, soul butchering, cruel, malicious, fiendish, concotion of the publishing press of Hell's syndication- that has no place in the life of a Bible believer( when I say Bible beiever, I mean the KJV).Calvinism's god is a god of hate and respect of souls, who has authored and influenced more dangers into the realm of Christianity than Carter has liver pills.

Please consider your stance and beliefs upon which stands nothing but conflicting false teachings that cannot be supported by the plain truth of Scripture. Study where John Calvin got his influence from, and where that influence took him, study his history see what it drove him to do. God is not the author of such.


I am praying for you , Mr. Hughes.

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And double Amen! BTW MR. Hughes, could you explain for us with Scripture to prove what this verse means:
" And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world." [i JOHN 2:2]

Do not go outside of the KJV, keep your Scriptures in context, and make sure they are very clear to prove YOUR point.


Also, if I may can I ask a question, to you since you are clearly promoting your belief in Calvinism.

Does Calvinism/Calvinists believe in the God of the KJV? If so then, according to Calvinists, even little precious babies, children, and aborted(murdered) souls of babies are sent to hell- in what is called God's good pleasure- while some are spared the flames of eternal hell, this still in accordance to Calvimism's belief that it is God's good pleasure to do so.

Does that sound like the God of the KJV Bible? To send babies to hell - IN HIS PLEASURE?

But then we are reminded of Jesus ( who is Jesus? God of course right?) when he said the following words :
" Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God."

and do not forget the God of the KJV Bible is not a respector of persons:
"For there is no respect of persons with God." Romans 2:11.

Even in the remote corners of the majority of people's hearts that are lost and have not expeirenced the love of the Lord Jesus Christ, there is the thought and reaction of horror at the thought of a god (yes, notice the little "g") who would cast a poor helpless soul of an infant, baby, child into the flames of hell and call it "pleasure". This Mr. Hughes, is not the God of the KJV, instead it is a brutal, heartless, soul butchering, cruel, malicious, fiendish, concotion of the publishing press of Hell's syndication- that has no place in the life of a Bible believer( when I say Bible beiever, I mean the KJV).Calvinism's god is a god of hate and respect of souls, who has authored and influenced more dangers into the realm of Christianity than Carter has liver pills.

Please consider your stance and beliefs upon which stands nothing but conflicting false teachings that cannot be supported by the plain truth of Scripture. Study where John Calvin got his influence from, and where that influence took him, study his history see what it drove him to do. God is not the author of such.


I am praying for you , Mr. Hughes.


Triple Amen! Here's some more.......

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30-31)

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

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Of course I'm sure that "For there is no respect of persons with God" does not mean "For there is no respect of persons with God." **Sarcasm**

Verses never mean what they say when it comes to Calvinism.

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Brother Matt said;

"Verses never mean what they say when it comes to Calvinism."


thanks for this statement Brother Matt, the sum of the problem in so few words.

:thumb

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You are proving that the heresy of Calvinism cannot be "proven" without either taking Scripture out of context or correcting the King James Bible. You're saying that the King James Bible does not mean what it says. If you keep using that to defend your doctrine, then no one here is going to listen to you because the majority of people on this board believe that the King James Bible is perfect and that it DOES mean what it says, IN ENGLISH.


Admittedly, I have not read this whole thread. I saw your comment on the other thread, and skimmed this last page (5 i think) for your reply.

I would say that both positions can use normal English to their defense (with the appropriate shared understanding of translation barriers). This is making this Calvinism issue into a KJB issue which in my mind seems fruitless. All means all. I am hardly in the mood (and more importantly have the time) to go into a lengthy discussion on the finer details of Calvinist's position, but suffice it to say that Calvinists use the same Bible, in English, to make their point.

And its unfair to discuss the topic without at least reading a few of the common works on the topic in a spirit of understanding. I certainly do not think one must come down on the side of Calvin when the're done, but to rely on a handful of people many of which do not hold to the position for your definition is not going to yield accurate results. I have read a few of the key Calvinist works, and hands down, the easiest read with the best presentation is Sproul's Chosen by God. Next week will mark my 3 year anniversary here at OLB, and to date, I do not think of anyone who has taken the time to read a book like this and engage in a discussion on the the presentation of topic and how it is in contrast to the typical presentation of Calvinism by free-will folks. Anyone willing to take on the topic reasonably. I will dust off my copy and read it again and we can discuss???

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