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No One Can Come to Jesus Christ, Unless...


Willo

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Amen!


And double Amen! BTW MR. Hughes, could you explain for us with Scripture to prove what this verse means:
" And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world." [i JOHN 2:2]

Do not go outside of the KJV, keep your Scriptures in context, and make sure they are very clear to prove YOUR point.


Also, if I may can I ask a question, to you since you are clearly promoting your belief in Calvinism.

Does Calvinism/Calvinists believe in the God of the KJV? If so then, according to Calvinists, even little precious babies, children, and aborted(murdered) souls of babies are sent to hell- in what is called God's good pleasure- while some are spared the flames of eternal hell, this still in accordance to Calvimism's belief that it is God's good pleasure to do so.

Does that sound like the God of the KJV Bible? To send babies to hell - IN HIS PLEASURE?

But then we are reminded of Jesus ( who is Jesus? God of course right?) when he said the following words :
" Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God."

and do not forget the God of the KJV Bible is not a respector of persons:
"For there is no respect of persons with God." Romans 2:11.

Even in the remote corners of the majority of people's hearts that are lost and have not expeirenced the love of the Lord Jesus Christ, there is the thought and reaction of horror at the thought of a god (yes, notice the little "g") who would cast a poor helpless soul of an infant, baby, child into the flames of hell and call it "pleasure". This Mr. Hughes, is not the God of the KJV, instead it is a brutal, heartless, soul butchering, cruel, malicious, fiendish, concotion of the publishing press of Hell's syndication- that has no place in the life of a Bible believer( when I say Bible beiever, I mean the KJV).Calvinism's god is a god of hate and respect of souls, who has authored and influenced more dangers into the realm of Christianity than Carter has liver pills.

Please consider your stance and beliefs upon which stands nothing but conflicting false teachings that cannot be supported by the plain truth of Scripture. Study where John Calvin got his influence from, and where that influence took him, study his history see what it drove him to do. God is not the author of such.


I am praying for you , Mr. Hughes.
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And double Amen! BTW MR. Hughes, could you explain for us with Scripture to prove what this verse means:
" And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world." [i JOHN 2:2]

Do not go outside of the KJV, keep your Scriptures in context, and make sure they are very clear to prove YOUR point.


Also, if I may can I ask a question, to you since you are clearly promoting your belief in Calvinism.

Does Calvinism/Calvinists believe in the God of the KJV? If so then, according to Calvinists, even little precious babies, children, and aborted(murdered) souls of babies are sent to hell- in what is called God's good pleasure- while some are spared the flames of eternal hell, this still in accordance to Calvimism's belief that it is God's good pleasure to do so.

Does that sound like the God of the KJV Bible? To send babies to hell - IN HIS PLEASURE?

But then we are reminded of Jesus ( who is Jesus? God of course right?) when he said the following words :
" Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God."

and do not forget the God of the KJV Bible is not a respector of persons:
"For there is no respect of persons with God." Romans 2:11.

Even in the remote corners of the majority of people's hearts that are lost and have not expeirenced the love of the Lord Jesus Christ, there is the thought and reaction of horror at the thought of a god (yes, notice the little "g") who would cast a poor helpless soul of an infant, baby, child into the flames of hell and call it "pleasure". This Mr. Hughes, is not the God of the KJV, instead it is a brutal, heartless, soul butchering, cruel, malicious, fiendish, concotion of the publishing press of Hell's syndication- that has no place in the life of a Bible believer( when I say Bible beiever, I mean the KJV).Calvinism's god is a god of hate and respect of souls, who has authored and influenced more dangers into the realm of Christianity than Carter has liver pills.

Please consider your stance and beliefs upon which stands nothing but conflicting false teachings that cannot be supported by the plain truth of Scripture. Study where John Calvin got his influence from, and where that influence took him, study his history see what it drove him to do. God is not the author of such.


I am praying for you , Mr. Hughes.


Triple Amen! Here's some more.......

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30-31)

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
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Brother Matt said;

"Verses never mean what they say when it comes to Calvinism."


thanks for this statement Brother Matt, the sum of the problem in so few words.

:thumb

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You are proving that the heresy of Calvinism cannot be "proven" without either taking Scripture out of context or correcting the King James Bible. You're saying that the King James Bible does not mean what it says. If you keep using that to defend your doctrine, then no one here is going to listen to you because the majority of people on this board believe that the King James Bible is perfect and that it DOES mean what it says, IN ENGLISH.


Admittedly, I have not read this whole thread. I saw your comment on the other thread, and skimmed this last page (5 i think) for your reply.

I would say that both positions can use normal English to their defense (with the appropriate shared understanding of translation barriers). This is making this Calvinism issue into a KJB issue which in my mind seems fruitless. All means all. I am hardly in the mood (and more importantly have the time) to go into a lengthy discussion on the finer details of Calvinist's position, but suffice it to say that Calvinists use the same Bible, in English, to make their point.

And its unfair to discuss the topic without at least reading a few of the common works on the topic in a spirit of understanding. I certainly do not think one must come down on the side of Calvin when the're done, but to rely on a handful of people many of which do not hold to the position for your definition is not going to yield accurate results. I have read a few of the key Calvinist works, and hands down, the easiest read with the best presentation is Sproul's Chosen by God. Next week will mark my 3 year anniversary here at OLB, and to date, I do not think of anyone who has taken the time to read a book like this and engage in a discussion on the the presentation of topic and how it is in contrast to the typical presentation of Calvinism by free-will folks. Anyone willing to take on the topic reasonably. I will dust off my copy and read it again and we can discuss???
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You are proving that the heresy of Calvinism cannot be "proven" without either taking Scripture out of context or correcting the King James Bible. You're saying that the King James Bible does not mean what it says. If you keep using that to defend your doctrine, then no one here is going to listen to you because the majority of people on this board believe that the King James Bible is perfect and that it DOES mean what it says, IN ENGLISH.


Sorry for only replying until now, been quite busy I'm afraid.

Well, let's see, how should I respond? First of all, "Calvinism" is simply a word that is used to describe the doctrines of grace. Poor old Calvin has had his name tagged to the doctrines of grace and he gets put over the coals for it. The doctrines of grace are found throughout the Bible and so to say that they are heresy is, well, foolish. Sorry if that offends you.

With regards to your view on King James only-ism, well, I have to say I've heard some strong arguments in my time but this one really is lacking in weight. To say that God has preserved HIs word in English is just plain arrogance. He has preserved His word, for sure, but He HAS NOT preserved it in English. Let me ask you a question. According to the KJV, the whole world lies in wickedness (1 John 5:19). Does that mean you, too, lie in wickedness? Since you elevate the English language to the psoition of God's inspired, infallible, inerrant word, then that would mean that you DO lie in wickedness. If that is the case my advice to you would be that you repent of your sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

As it happens I do admire very much the KJV. I enjoy using it in my reading of the Scriptures. I think it is a very accurate translation and its literary style is beautiful. But it is still a translation from the languages God chose for HIs word to be originally written in. And so, the argument is settled. The KJV is a translation of the word of God and needs to be treated as such.
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Yes, the whole world does lie in wickedness. However, we are not of the world. We are saved by the blood of Christ, making us part of His body. Therefore the King James Bible is RIGHT, and you are WRONG.

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Sorry for only replying until now, been quite busy I'm afraid.

Well, let's see, how should I respond? First of all, "Calvinism" is simply a word that is used to describe the doctrines of grace. Poor old Calvin has had his name tagged to the doctrines of grace and he gets put over the coals for it. The doctrines of grace are found throughout the Bible and so to say that they are heresy is, well, foolish. Sorry if that offends you.

With regards to your view on King James only-ism, well, I have to say I've heard some strong arguments in my time but this one really is lacking in weight. To say that God has preserved HIs word in English is just plain arrogance. He has preserved His word, for sure, but He HAS NOT preserved it in English. Let me ask you a question. According to the KJV, the whole world lies in wickedness (1 John 5:19). Does that mean you, too, lie in wickedness? Since you elevate the English language to the psoition of God's inspired, infallible, inerrant word, then that would mean that you DO lie in wickedness. If that is the case my advice to you would be that you repent of your sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

As it happens I do admire very much the KJV. I enjoy using it in my reading of the Scriptures. I think it is a very accurate translation and its literary style is beautiful. But it is still a translation from the languages God chose for HIs word to be originally written in. And so, the argument is settled. The KJV is a translation of the word of God and needs to be treated as such.


This is a strawman argument. Just because someone believes the King James Bible is the perfect translation of God's word for English speaking people, doesn't make them a "King James Onlyist". No doubt, the Textus Receptus has been accurately and inerrantly translated into many other languages. We simply believe that God has provided and perfectly preserved a translation for English speaking people....and that translation is the the KJB.


According to the KJV, the whole world lies in wickedness (1 John 5:19). Does that mean you, too, lie in wickedness? Since you elevate the English language to the psoition of God's inspired, infallible, inerrant word, then that would mean that you DO lie in wickedness. If that is the case my advice to you would be that you repent of your sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.


Sir, I can show you also, in the King James Bible, that your heart....YOUR....heart is deceitful and wicked....even if you are saved.
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Yes' date=' the whole world does lie in wickedness. However, we are not of the world. We are saved by the blood of Christ, making us part of His body. Therefore the King James Bible is RIGHT, and you are WRONG.[/quote']

If you are going to be consistent with the proof texts you use to refute the doctrines of grace, namely that words like "all" and "whole" always means "all" and "whole" then you have a problem, because it is clear that the verse says that the whole world lieth in wickedness. I understand that Christians are not of the world. That is how we can look at this verse and understand that Christians do not lie in wickedness. If you can use deductive logic with this verse, why then do you struggle to do that with others?
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Ok, this should be simple to explain...

Let's do the math.

the whole world = the world ? Christians

Now take a look at this:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

all men = all men

There is nothing in the Bible that says any man (or woman) on earth is excluded from the phrase "all men".

Simple enough for you? If you can't understand that, I don't think I can help you.
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Hey KJB Princess! (Good post!)



So the "all" in Romans 3:23 " For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" must mean the so-called "elect"??

(sheeeze!!)


:coffee

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Hey KJB Princess! (Good post!)



So the "all" in Romans 3:23 " For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" must mean the so-called "elect"??

(sheeeze!!)


:coffee


Even a 5-yr-old could figure that out. This is just too easy... it's actually kinda fun. :lol
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Hey KJB Princess! (Good post!)



So the "all" in Romans 3:23 " For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" must mean the so-called "elect"??

(sheeeze!!)


:coffee

Of course it doesn't mean just the elect. Calvinists don't deny that all men are destitute and sinful. That is affirmed in Calvinism. All men are without hope and inability of salvation of themselves.
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Whether I answer or not depends on why you're asking. Are you saying that if I disagree, I should just go along with you guys? :wink
I'll answer you, anyway. No, I don't agree with Calvinism. I think there is some predestination involved in salvation, simply because it's in Ephesians 1. The extent of that, I'm not sure and I'm not really concerned about it. I'm more of a middle-of-the-road person. I don't hold to either extreme and I'm content to wait until Heaven to find out. But seeing as it's not an issue that affects one's salvation, I don't see the point of always attacking it, especially with weak and ignorant arguments. I don't say ignorant as an insult but in the true sense of the word- not having a real knowledge of what Calvinists actually believe.

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