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Miss California vs. Sodomy


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What she said was good. How she was dressed was bad. Not all Christians are giving her a thumbs-up. I liked what she said, and that she wasn't going to change that to win. I feel sorry for her that she obviously hasn't been taught certain scriptural principles and so doesn't feel any shame in walking in front of millions (via the camera) in such immodest apparel. She is a product of the new kind of Christianity. The kind that says it doesn't matter what one wears. The kind that says (by practice, not necessarily words) pick and choose the principles in scripture that you want to follow. As long as you love everybody, you're okay.

As I said before, I think these pageants ought to be done away with (and, really, I'm surprised that feminists aren't hollering about them...after all, they exploit women!). And I for sure don't think any Christian woman should be in them!


LuAnne,
I like the way you put it..."pick and choose the principles in scripture" our God didn't write these words as a smorgusboard. It's all his word...not part.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
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I proud that this young woman stood up for what she believed. However, I do not think that it costs her the competition. She was losing to the eventual winner in every category leading into the question that she was asked. As I understand it, its not "what" you answer with, but "how", as in there are no right or wrong answers and you are judged based on your ability to soundly and professionally respond to the question.

Everyone needs to leave her alone about her dress. In ancient Palestine it was immodest for a woman to be in church without her head covered. Modesty is intrinsically related to culture and in southern California it is not immodest for a woman to wear a bikini. As one who grew up in a tropical climate I can attest that you don't want to find yourself on the beach all covered up.

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I proud that this young woman stood up for what she believed. However, I do not think that it costs her the competition. She was losing to the eventual winner in every category leading into the question that she was asked. As I understand it, its not "what" you answer with, but "how", as in there are no right or wrong answers and you are judged based on your ability to soundly and professionally respond to the question.

Everyone needs to leave her alone about her dress. In ancient Palestine it was immodest for a woman to be in church without her head covered. Modesty is intrinsically related to culture and in southern California it is not immodest for a woman to wear a bikini. As one who grew up in a tropical climate I can attest that you don't want to find yourself on the beach all covered up.

pt - no, I won't leave her alone about her dress - or lack thereof!!! I don't care what ancient culture or southern CA culture says. God doesn't want women undressed (and yes, bathing suits are as bad as being out in public in underwear). Period.
Paul took care of the head covering issue when he said the church has no such custom.
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pt - no, I won't leave her alone about her dress - or lack thereof!!! I don't care what ancient culture or southern CA culture says. God doesn't want women undressed (and yes, bathing suits are as bad as being out in public in underwear). Period.
Paul took care of the head covering issue when he said the church has no such custom.


I guess I'm having a hard time finding where the Bible specifically states what "modest" is. From my understanding, the biblical references to female modesty deal mostly with accessories (don't wear ear rings, precious stones . . .) that evidence materialism. Without a specific definition or example, wouldn't modesty be something that's left open to cultural interpretation. I do not think it is anymore immodest for a woman to wear a bikini (in the right context of course, such as when going to the beach rather when going to the grocery store) that it is for a man to wear a pair of swimming trunks. I think this is probably a product of my culture, where we have sweltering summer heat from May to November and people die from exposure (over heating) on a routine basis. I guess things look differently from other parts of the country where, no doubt, the climate, and therefore dress, is different. I think what she is wearing crosses over into the realm of immodesty only if it is worn out of context.

As far as Paul taking care of head coverings, I thought he instructed the women at Corinth to continue wearing the head coverings in keeping with their culture and traditions. I could be mistaken.
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Paul took care of the head covering issue when he said the church has no such custom.


Paul was speaking of not having the custom of being contentious. The rest of what he said makes that clear. Women are to have head coverings, but long long hair is a head covering according to what Paul says in those scriptures.

Modesty is intrinsically related to culture and in southern California it is not immodest for a woman to wear a bikini. As one who grew up in a tropical climate I can attest that you don't want to find yourself on the beach all covered up.


I am sorry you think that. The point of such skimpy clothing is universally know to be an attempt to attract attention to the physical body. It isn't that it isn't considered immodest today, it is just that immodesty and the flaunting of the flesh has become culturally acceptable just as divorce, sodomy, pride, and numerous other sins have become culturally acceptable.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Remember Christian, the world should not be your friend. The friendship of the world is enmity with God.
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Paul was speaking of not having the custom of being contentious. The rest of what he said makes that clear. Women are to have head coverings, but long long hair is a head covering according to what Paul says in those scriptures.



I am sorry you think that. The point of such skimpy clothing is universally know to be an attempt to attract attention to the physical body. It isn't that it isn't considered immodest today, it is just that immodesty and the flaunting of the flesh has become culturally acceptable just as divorce, sodomy, pride, and numerous other sins have become culturally acceptable.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Remember Christian, the world should not be your friend. The friendship of the world is enmity with God.


It is false to say that the point of "skimpy clothing is universally know[n] to be an attempt to attract attention to the physical body." I'll agree that it can be such an attempt, but no opinion can be said to be "universally known". Furthermore, a bikini is not "skimpy clothing" and does not have the express, or functional, purpose of drawing attention to the human body. The purpose of the bikini is to allow women to have a piece of clothing that is both useable in water and that allows for the least amount of heat to be retained by the body. It serves its functions whether anyone looks at the person wearing it or not.
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Rev - I'm not going to argue about the point...don't want to be contentious. :lol Seriously, I agree totally that Paul is teaching that a woman's hair is her covering.

pt - "modest apparel" isn't talking about accessories - it's talking about clothing. When God covered Adam and Eve, He covered them all the way down (the word for coats means a long garment...kinda like the word apparel in Timothy means a long flowing garment...).

Uncovering the thigh was an embarrasment and a shame to people during Bible times. Yep, one might claim that's the culture...but I don't believe God changes His idea of shaming. Is. 47:2 and 3 talk about making bare the leg, uncovering the thigh as nakedness uncovered - as a shame. Yes, He is talking to Israel, but He is using a metaphor for what shame to a woman is. The thigh runs from the hip to the knee. I'd say a bikini (or a two-piece, since hers wasn't actually a bikini) leaves the thigh uncovered.

If culture were to be the deciding factor in our standards of life and practice, there would be nothing but chaos. Oh, wait! Chaos in Christianity abounds today!! Precisely because society and culture determine what is right and wrong. And then we as Christians reason our way into accepting it. It truly is a sad commentary on modern Christianity.

As far as context, even if that was an acceptable argument, there is no proper context for this girl to be wearing one...on national tv at that. She wasn't at a beach. She was at a pageant strutting her stuff to be chosen the most beautiful woman in the country. And part of the judgment came from being nearly naked. Tells a lot about the values, or really the lack thereof, in this country.

pt - you were posting as I was. Actually, there are suits that are very much more modest than bikinis available to women today. And they are not heat retentive. Nor are they revealing. And they don't hold water.

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It is false to say that the point of "skimpy clothing is universally know[n] to be an attempt to attract attention to the physical body." I'll agree that it can be such an attempt, but no opinion can be said to be "universally known". Furthermore, a bikini is not "skimpy clothing" and does not have the express, or functional, purpose of drawing attention to the human body. The purpose of the bikini is to allow women to have a piece of clothing that is both useable in water and that allows for the least amount of heat to be retained by the body. It serves its functions whether anyone looks at the person wearing it or not.


I have to admit you are the very first Christian of any type that I have ever met who actually tried to tell me a bikini is modest apparel. It is about as close to completely bare as a person can get without violating public nudity laws. I doubt very many normal men are not physically attracted to a pretty woman dressed in such a manner. By the grace of God a Christian man can instantly choose to mentally pass on and not let his mind go there, but it is not easy and only by the grace of God is it possible.
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I think you all are misunderstanding me. A bikini is an immodest piece of clothing if it is being worn for any purpose other than either a) swimming/bathing or B) beach wear. As far as her wearing it as part of a beauty pagent, well the pagent does not judge beauty based on facial features alone. The winner is to be physically healthy and the only way to judge her on her physical health is to examine her body. It is no more immodest than a doctor asking you to undress so that he may judge whether or not you are suffering from some condition. You are taking God's instructions regarding modesty, applying your own interpretation, and then taking it to an extreme. It all boils down to culture and context.

Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with admiring a woman for her beauty. It is not a sin to look at a woman in a bikini and admire the way God chose to shape her body. The sin part doesn't come on until you allow lust to enter the picture. And as you said, Christian men, with God's help, can avoid that pitfall.

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Sorry, pt, but that is way off! No "judge" should be examing a woman's almost naked body to determine beauty!!! And it is in no way similar to a doctor. A doctor examines for health. A judge examines for looks. Not the same thing at all.

Nope. God's instructions are more extreme than any of us could ever be. God says we are to be holy, as He is holy. You think God changes with culture? No, He doesn't. What was sin when it first entered the garden is sin today. A woman's body is for her husband. And a man's body is for his wife. Not for everyone else who just wants to see the beauty of the form.

If I'm taking it to the extreme, that's fine. I think you'd be surprised just how extreme I take it! :lol

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Sorry, pt, but that is way off! No "judge" should be examing a woman's almost naked body to determine beauty!!! And it is in no way similar to a doctor. A doctor examines for health. A judge examines for looks. Not the same thing at all.

Nope. God's instructions are more extreme than any of us could ever be. God says we are to be holy, as He is holy. You think God changes with culture? No, He doesn't. What was sin when it first entered the garden is sin today. A woman's body is for her husband. And a man's body is for his wife. Not for everyone else who just wants to see the beauty of the form.

If I'm taking it to the extreme, that's fine. I think you'd be surprised just how extreme I take it! :lol


If the judge is to determine her over all physical health, I don't see how he can adequately do so without examining her body. And I'm not talking about over all health, but actual physical health such as muscle tone, complexion . . .

I don't think God changes with culture. I think that God's laws apply to all cultures. In no way to I believe that God requires everyone to change everything about their day to day lives (meals, dress, work) to conform to the culture of first century Palistine. I've been told that in some cultures it is considered immodest for a woman to show her ankles. In such a culture, the women should not show their ankles in keeping with God's instruction that we be modest people. However, in my culture there is no modesty issue involved with showing one's ankles, so no problem. Same thing with head/shoulder coverings. I went to a wedding in December in which all women with uncovered shoulders and heads were given a shawl and paper bonnet like covering as they entered the church. In that culture, it was immodest for a woman to show her shoulders or the top of her head, so I had my date (her shoulders were covered but she didn't have her head covered) to follow suit because that was the culture we were in. To those individuals, it would have been immodest of my date not to cover her head whether she, or anyone else, beliveved she was being immodest or not.

Additionally, do you not believe there is a personal aspect to modesty. As in, is the person attempting to be immodest or not? A woman that wears a bikini to the grocery store is obviously not wearing the garmet for its functional purpose and could easily be said to be wearing it for immodest reasons. However, if you are a female volley ball player that spends 4-5 hours a day on some hot beach somewhere, its a completely different situation.
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Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with admiring a woman for her beauty. It is not a sin to look at a woman in a bikini and admire the way God chose to shape her body. The sin part doesn't come on until you allow lust to enter the picture.


It is a sin unless the woman is your wife. :smile A man who claims he likes to look at womens bodies only because he is admiring Gods design and claims he isn't lusting is a great big liar or fooling himself. It is a common and ridiculous claim. Don't play with fire. Men were not designed to function that way and they don't.
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It is absolutely impossible to not notice the shapes of women's bodies even when they are fully clothed, bare all women dressing in Muslim-like clothing or moo-moos 100% of the time. :smile I work with three women and I could describe them well enough to you so that you, being a lady, could probably estimate their height, weight and measurements. We work in a business environment that requires formal dress and I have never been with any of them in a social setting. However, I see them 8 or more hours a day five days a week. It is impossible not to notice what the people around you look like. There are several instances throughout the Bible where a women is noted as beautiful and I have no reason to believe that such as assessment is drawn by examining the face a lone. I'm not saying it is ok to look at porn or even women dressed in sexually suggestive clothing. Just that there is nothing wrong with noticing and appreciating other humans, even those of the opposite sex, for their physical beauty.

I also find it impossible to believe that there will be no element of physical attraction between me and my future wife. I believe that God made us in such a way that we seek mates that make us feel safe and which we believe will produce healthy offspring. As a part of that, we are predisposed to seek mates who are not obese or suffering from some other physical ailment. Rather, we seek a mate who is in shape and has those physical qualities which men associate with motherhood, and women associate with fatherhood.

Back to the pageant issue specifically, do you not agree that the reason for wearing a certain garment plays into this discussion. The pageant contestant was not wearing the bikini for the purpose of sexually exciting men. When she put the thing on and walked out on the stage, she had not intent or desire to solicit a mate. She wore it to win a contest which requires that the winner be physically beautiful. Same with the judges. They were not staring at the women like buffet patrons. They were merely viewing so as to give an opinion. Would it be inappropriate for a criminal trial judge to view photos of a nude rape victim? The reason for the viewing is the key in this situation.
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Ah, pt, I'm sorry. But the holiness of God demands a more stringent look than just saying our culture is okay with things. As to your wedding example - the shoulder and head wear isn't "culture." It is a standard of the church (or of the wedding participants) where the wedding took place. There is a difference between culture and standard.

The culture in which our society finds itself today is godless. No-one who is out in public much these days can deny it. It is anti-God. And the accepted behaviours are a reflection of that culture. One of the big problems with the majority of Christianity today is that Christians also accept it! And that is in direct disobedience to the Word of God, which is very clear that we are to be distinct from the world. Modesty is one of those distinctions. It is a protection God has put in place for women. But we have thrown that protection away, and then try to reason our way into an excuse for it.

The term "naked" in the Bible refers to different things - sometimes completely naked (like Adam and Eve realized they were naked when they first sinned), sometimes not completely clothed (like Adam and Eve when God came to the garden...and Adam told God he hid himself because he was afraid, because he was naked...but remember, he wasn't naked in our terms...he was clothed with the leaf garment they had made). And then GOD covered them - the coat being a garment that covered their bodies - not just the "private" parts.

No, it isn't physical health that the judges are looking at - it's how the woman looks in a bathing suit. The judges themselves may not be lecherous, but those men viewing on the tv sure are!!! Else why would they watch? Just to see the beauty of the womanly form? No! Of course not. It's to see how those women look in skimpy bathing suits.

Bathing suits are designed for sensuality, as is much of women's clothing nowadays. Why? Because it will cause a man to look...and a woman's pride will be fed with those wolf whistles or admiring glances. A man's lust is fed and a woman's ego massaged. Good reason to wear them (not!).

"Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind..." We are not to accept the standards of the current culture as an okay to undress publicly. Beauty pageants are conforming to the world, the world's view of "beauty." And little girls grow up believing that this is the epitome of beautiful womandhood, while little boys grow up to think it's perfectly okay. That's a sad thing.

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." Whether anyone who watches pageants wants to admit it or not, it is an excercise in the lust of the eyes. And God condemns it. When a Christian woman dons a bathing suit and walks around on camera so that all kinds of eyes can "inspect her to see how physically healthy she is," she is contributing to that lust of the eyes...and does not glorify God in the process.

We are a peculiar people, if we are saved. That doesn't mean weird, even though pecualiar has taken on that meaning today. It means set apart - we are a set apart people...set apart from sin and the world, and all of its lusts, and set apart to God and His holiness. Many Christians today have lost sight of that.

(BTW - it's good to see you posting again, pt - even if we're disagreeing. :lol: )

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