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Jim_Alaska

Defense of your country, patriotism or obligations as Christians.

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Just throwing this out there for discussion. There are those among "supposed" Christian ranks that will argue that we, as Christians, should not get involved with regional or national issues such as politics (even voting), government over regulation, military, government, opposing Satan or working toward defeating or defending against the forces of evil in our nation.

How would you respond to such people by using Scripture or biblical concepts? I am not posting this because I am unsure, I have my own reasons and arguments on this subject, I would just like to see other Independent Baptist ideas about this subject.

Of course if you think that we should not be involved in this type of thing, please feel free to post your convictions, with Scripture. If you think that God's people should involve themselves in issues of this nature I would be interested in your Scriptural reasons why.

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I still struggle with this.

It will be interesting to read each others views.

I always get stuck on the NT view that the disciples never involved themselves with such things. They never joined the military. They never opposed a world leader in their politics (in their religion yes). From my viewpoint they always ran or accepted punishment for witnessing and were too busy to involve themselves in any other thing.

Watching for viewpoints.

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In addition, Paul could have cared less about being a roman. He invoked citizenship only to be freed to keep preaching the Gospel. Not out of some patriotism to Rome. If voting allows us to keep doing that freely, then we should.

Edited by wretched

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I tend to stay out of politics. My problem becomes when people mix Christianity and Patriotism and try to use the same yardstick for both. Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world". I am a citizen of that kingdom, as an adopted daughter. I just happen to be spending my earthly life here in the USA. I prefer to just stay out of the political realm, mostly because the prince of this world is in charge of earthly kingdoms. I will somewhat impatiently wait for the Lord to take back the title deed to the earth. 

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There are many, many subjects regarding every day life and citizenship of man that are just not clearly dealt with in scripture. This subject is one of them. While I know that I am a citizen of heaven, I am also a citizen of the United States. I hold dual citizenship. The heavenly citizenship takes precedence if there is ever conflict between the two, but I am responsible to both. I am certainly to pay my earthly taxes according to scripture and obey the laws, that we all agree on. But are we, as Christians, really expected to be societal parasites, like the Jehovah's Witnesses? Do we grow fat and blessed in this free country where we can worship as we please, but not lift a finger to exercise the blood-bought right to vote to preserve it, or fight to protect it? Is that really the kind of citizens God wants us to be? I just can't see it in scripture. 

This country, the United States, was used mightily by God, especially in the 18th and 19th centuries, to propagate the gospel all over the world. However, we were birthed out of bloody, violent war against religious and political tyranny, and went to war again in WWI and WWII to help defend large portions of this planet from evil. And after we, with our allies, achieved victory there was another great push in missions, which obviously was blessed by God. How many good, Godly men and women died in those wars along side of the sinners to stop the evil that was threatening both? Why do we get the idea that a Christian is forbidden to physically intervene to stop evil, either as a soldier, as a policeman or as a citizen?

I have one son in the military, and another is a Law Enforcement Officer. They are both good, Godly men that serve God actively, witness and hold Bible studies and remain true to their faith. I am very proud of both of them. There are, humanly speaking, three types of people in this world. The sheep, the wolves and the sheep dogs. My family is a family of sheep dogs. We witness, preach and work to help protect folk's souls and spirits from the evils of the flesh, the world and the devil by bringing them to Christ and counseling, encouraging, rebuking, teaching and preaching from the scripture. I don't see anywhere in the Bible where we are then to just ignore the 3rd leg of the human trinity, the body.

That's me, and how I see it, and how I live it.

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7 hours ago, weary warrior said:

I have one son in the military, and another is a Law Enforcement Officer.

I am the granddaughter, daughter, daughter-in-law, sister-in-law, wife and mother of military men. All of them, in one way or another, suffered during or after their military service by things that occurred during their service. I hate war with a passion, a bloody blue passion. What I hate more is this pseudo-patriotism that gets trucked out when convenient, when the truth is that those who send and sent our fathers, husbands, sons and daughters to fight and die don't care about them when they come home, battered, bloody and broken. The next time the people in charge want a war, I think they and THEIR sons and daughters should go first. 

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10 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

I am the granddaughter, daughter, daughter-in-law, sister-in-law, wife and mother of military men. All of them, in one way or another, suffered during or after their military service by things that occurred during their service. I hate war with a passion, a bloody blue passion. What I hate more is this pseudo-patriotism that gets trucked out when convenient, when the truth is that those who send and sent our fathers, husbands, sons and daughters to fight and die don't care about them when they come home, battered, bloody and broken. The next time the people in charge want a war, I think they and THEIR sons and daughters should go first. 

I understand your feelings on the subject, and do not disagree at all. I thank you and respect you for the sacrifices that you have made right along side of the men in your family. However, I would also bet that most of the men you mentioned in your family who served and suffered for that service did not feel quite the same way as you do about it. This is not a bad thing, nor is it wrong in any way. It's just the way it is. this is why God wired men and women different. The man goes and does what needs to be done, fair or not, and in the process finds whatever reason and justification in it that he can, just to survive and maintain some form of dignity and sanity. It is the loved ones at home who suffer for it right along with them, helpless and frustrated and unable to do anything about the hell that this world is putting their men (and women) through.

But, Dear Sister, bad, violent men must be stopped, and only good violent men can stop them.

It is a terrible truth, but it is a truth for the ages none-the-less.

Those who went to stop Hitler, Mussolini, Hirohito, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, Ho Chi Min etc. were not doing it out of a pseudo-patriotism. They were good men going to stop bad men. That is how men think, how they see things, how they are able to get terrible things accomplished. Yes, politicians twist things to their own end, and their own sons often get off easy, but never let their empty weakness color your own view of what real men have always stepped up to accomplish, and will always continue to do so. Never let your hatred of the suffering of your loved ones diminish the heroism of their sacrifice in your own eyes. It would not be fair to them.

Again, my hat is off to you in respect.

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11 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

Never let your hatred of the suffering of your loved ones diminish the heroism of their sacrifice in your own eyes. It would not be fair to them.

They are all my heroes. My son is suffering the worst. Two tours in Iraq, and he is now 100% disabled. He's not even 30 yet. He had a traumatic brain injury, shrapnel wounds and due to the well fires and other pollutants, is slowly dying from the damage done to his internal organs. He has trouble eating, vomits blood, and also has a raging PTSD going on. I don't even know who he is anymore. I hate it. 

I truly believe that bad men would stop doing bad things if THEIR sons and daughters were the ones that had to lead the charge, not the sons and daughters, nor husbands or wives of ordinary people like me. I cannot begin to tell you how painful it is to watch that same baby boy you cuddled close struggle with things that you can never understand or fix. 

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11 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

They are all my heroes. My son is suffering the worst. Two tours in Iraq, and he is now 100% disabled. He's not even 30 yet. He had a traumatic brain injury, shrapnel wounds and due to the well fires and other pollutants, is slowly dying from the damage done to his internal organs. He has trouble eating, vomits blood, and also has a raging PTSD going on. I don't even know who he is anymore. I hate it. 

I am permanently adding your son to my prayer list, as well as Melissa.

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Luke 19, "Occupy till I come".

 

War puts many horrors before the eyes of a man.  A lost man's only escape if he refuses Christ is to take his own life.  Indeed, many do, it's an epidemic that the lost are desperately searching to solve; without Christ.  A saved man can and must give that heavy burden to Christ Jesus.  While on this earth the memories of those horrors don't go away but they can be given a proper perspective through prayer and bible learning.

One of the best worldly therapies for veterans is to talk about their experiences.  Write a book about them even.  The horrors of war are as steam inside a kettle and if not let out they can destroy a man.  I've seen countless men who refuse to talk about their experiences destroy themselves.  I've seen countless others, many of whom fared worse in war, live seemingly normal lives because they are not afraid to talk about it.  Some may not talk about it with their spouses or those who weren't there, but they should at least talk among themselves or through the written word.  

Sharing those experiences will prepare the next generation and the next for war and might even give those who send men off to war pause, to see if the cause is really worth sending men to die for.

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Scriptural references for volunteering to be a soldier though? 

If men wouldn't volunteer, maybe they would have been better used of God?

Instead of living in extremely decaying and unhealthy lives now that are no longer able to do what the Lord intended for them...they could be healthy and, vigorously working to reach the lost that were supposed to hear the gospel? 

Maybe? 

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