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Have you heard this statement?


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17 hours ago, 1611mac said:

You'll get shot quicker when you're running around naked with a sword! Lol.   Seriously, though, no I know this verse, and believe me, I'm not anti-gun, nor against self-protection. I've just never been quite sure as to how to understand that verse, since, after saying this, they said to Jesus, "Here are two swords" and Jesus said It is enough. Two swords for twelve apostles? And then Peter was rebuked for drawing a sword against the army when they came for Jesus.

Again, I am not disagreeing with you, not trying to imply somehow that I am more spiritual than you because I don't take a sidearm to go witnessing-each of us has to do as we believe best, especially knowing our own areas. If I had to witness in Chicago, I might just carry a weapon. Here I don't. But please don't think I am imlying anything.

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3 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

You'll get shot quicker when you're running around naked with a sword! Lol.   Seriously, though, no I know this verse, and believe me, I'm not anti-gun, nor against self-protection. I've just never been quite sure as to how to understand that verse, since, after saying this, they said to Jesus, "Here are two swords" and Jesus said It is enough. Two swords for twelve apostles? And then Peter was rebuked for drawing a sword against the army when they came for Jesus.

Again, I am not disagreeing with you, not trying to imply somehow that I am more spiritual than you because I don't take a sidearm to go witnessing-each of us has to do as we believe best, especially knowing our own areas. If I had to witness in Chicago, I might just carry a weapon. Here I don't. But please don't think I am imlying anything.

Absolutely not thinking you are implying anything....  

Peter was rebuked because the time was not right....  Timing is everything...   Plus, I think Christ can defend himself if need be.   Here's is another verse for you..
1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

In my mind, "providing for his own house" also means physical protection.  So I am to provide protection for my family and myself. Note that I did not say my household goods... a robber can have those.  But threaten the life of my family... I'll provide protection..  Lord willing.

But, I should probably drop this as don't want to hijack the thread... 

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RE: The Gospel is like a firework....

Ah, there is a 4th of July sermon (for those in the U.S.) there somewhere!

- The Gospel shatters unbelief.
- The Gospel explodes when lit (revival)
- The Gospel lights up the darkness

Edited by 1611mac
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1 hour ago, 1611mac said:

RE: The Gospel is like a firework....

Ah, there is a 4th of July sermon (for those in the U.S.) there somewhere!

- The Gospel shatters unbelief.
- The Gospel explodes when lit (revival)
- The Gospel lights up the darkness

For those of us in England it is a good November 5th sermon!

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5 minutes ago, Salyan said:

Remember, remember, the fifth of November...

"...gunpowder, treason and plot".  God had His hand upon England with the discovery of the gunpowder plot.  Humanly speaking, there wouldn't have been a King James Bible if Guido Fawkes had had his way.

Kind regards

Bob

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6 hours ago, 1611mac said:

Absolutely not thinking you are implying anything....  

Peter was rebuked because the time was not right....  Timing is everything...   Plus, I think Christ can defend himself if need be.   Here's is another verse for you..
1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

In my mind, "providing for his own house" also means physical protection.  So I am to provide protection for my family and myself. Note that I did not say my household goods... a robber can have those.  But threaten the life of my family... I'll provide protection..  Lord willing.

But, I should probably drop this as don't want to hijack the thread... 

Oh dear friend, this passage from I Timothy is not referring to self or family defense in its context in any way. Nor is Luke 22:36-40 referring to actual violence. It is yet another fulfillment of prophecy in which our Lord frequently declared in the Gospels during various situations. In this case the prophecy fulfilled is Isaiah 53: 9-12. "v. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Our Lord was to be numbered with the transgressors. The swords made our Lord's arrest legal (at the time of arrest). Peter was rebuked by the Lord for using one of the swords and not over timing. Can't you see that? He did not come here the first time to destroy men's lives, but to save them. We are commanded to be like Him in these matters and point men to the Savior, not to destroy men's lives. 

Luke 22: 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough. It wasn't nearly enough for the self defense of all of the disciples but it was enough for the arrest and fulfillment of Isaiah 53

I will say this once again and pray some will listen.

It is blatantly contradictory to believe that Jesus even excuses, much less condones, encourages, or commands violence to any other human being down here for any reason. 

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." 

There is not and will not be any time in your remaining physical life where it is OK to resist evil or disobey any of our Lord's commands. To do so is sin, to teach others to do so will regulate us to LEAST IN HEAVEN.

Matthew 5: 16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. v 19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Carrying a pistol with the intent to shoot someone in self defense is not Bible Christianity. We were not spared eternal torment to continue to live under Adam's rules and mindset. The Gospel results in the exact opposite of the natural man. Please see the Sermon on the Mount. One could only pray to be slaughtered for Christ.

If we truly believe the Gospel, we must then follow the Gospel and strive through the Word and prayer unto Christlikeness.

 

 

Edited by wretched
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1 hour ago, wretched said:

Oh dear friend, this passage from I Timothy is not referring to self or family defense in its context in any way. Nor is Luke 22:36-40 referring to actual violence. It is yet another fulfillment of prophecy in which our Lord frequently declared in the Gospels during various situations. In this case the prophecy fulfilled is Isaiah 53: 9-12. "v. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Our Lord was to be numbered with the transgressors. The swords made our Lord's arrest legal (at the time of arrest). Peter was rebuked by the Lord for using one of the swords and not over timing. Can't you see that? He did not come here the first time to destroy men's lives, but to save them. We are commanded to be like Him in these matters and point men to the Savior, not to destroy men's lives. 

Luke 22: 36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough. It wasn't nearly enough for the self defense of all of the disciples but it was enough for the arrest and fulfillment of Isaiah 53

I will say this once again and pray some will listen.

It is blatantly contradictory to believe that Jesus even excuses, much less condones, encourages, or commands violence to any other human being down here for any reason. 

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." 

There is not and will not be any time in your remaining physical life where it is OK to resist evil or disobey any of our Lord's commands. To do so is sin, to teach others to do so will regulate us to LEAST IN HEAVEN.

Matthew 5: 16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. v 19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Carrying a pistol with the intent to shoot someone in self defense is not Bible Christianity PERIOD. We were not spared eternal torment to continue to live under Adam's rules and mindset. The Gospel results in the exact opposite of the natural man. Please see the Sermon on the Mount. One could only pray to be slaughtered for Christ.

If we truly believe the Gospel, we must then follow the Gospel and strive through the Word and prayer unto Christlikeness.

 

 

Interesting study, worthy of a good investigation. Thanks.

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  • 8 months later...
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This is not a made up story, it really happened and I heard the testimony. 

In our church we have a short time of testimony and praise  as part of our service. One Sunday morning a new young lady came to service and gave this testimony.

It seems she was a part of a group of twenty "soul winners" that went out soul winning the previous day, a Saturday. Her testimony of praise was that the result of their soul winning  efforts resulted in twenty people being "saved". 

This young lady went on to become a member of our church and is still a very active soul winner. I believe that she is a genuine Christian and very sincere in her beliefs and Christian life. In this context it is amazing to me that someone like this can go on actually believing that their "easy believism" methods result in genuine conversions of the people they witness to.

It is even harder to understand how they can hold to this method in light of no fruit of the Spirit, no subsequent Baptism, and no church attendance after the original encounter at the door.

I fear for the people that misguided soul winners witness to. These people may well go on in their lost condition and hardened to any subsequent Gospel witness simply because they believe that they have been saved because they repeated a "sinner's prayer."

I believe that this sort of door knocking evangelism actually quenches the convicting and saving work of The Holy Spirit and substitutes a man made formula instead.

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The issue is "Who is doing the winning".

The easy-believism crowd believes they are going out and winning souls. Numbers of people who pray the sinners prayer are all that matter.
The life-style Evangelism crowd believes that God wins them and they just have to live right and let their light shine.

Though the Life style crowd is right in that God wins them, it is our job to Lead them to Christ. Christ will win them.

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6 hours ago, swathdiver said:

That young lady is proud and deceived.  Hopefully it won't last long.  After a time who shall ask her about the fruit?  

Confronting this kind of soul winner is important, but I worry more about the influence she may have on others by taking them soul winning with her.

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1 hour ago, Pastorj said:

When my family traveled working with small churches, I came across this a few times. The one that was amazing to me was in Florida. I went out with an individual and it was my turn to talk. I started up a nice conversation with this lady on her doorstep. She was very willing to talk. After presenting the Gospel, I asked her if she had ever heard that before. She told me that she had, but didn't believe it. After some more discussion, my partner asked her if he could pray with her. To my amazement, he led her in the sinners prayer. After he was done, I stopped him and told her that she was not saved, but she could be if she would pray something similar believing. I then took my partner back to the church. On the way back, he was livid that we were stopping soul-winning and that I told her she wasn't saved after he "Led her to Christ".

It was not a fun conversation, but I spent a good hour explaining to him that a prayer doesn't save. After we were done, the pastor showed up and he had a conversation with the Pastor. He reinforced what I had told him and it finally clicked with him. He was zealous to lead people to the Lord, but at been taught wrong.

Praise the Lord that some can still learn.

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