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Tulip or Not Tulip...


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5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Question #1:  Did the Lord Jesus Christ die for all sinners or only for a select ("elect") group of sinners?  What Biblical evidence would you provide for your answer?

He had to die for ALL! 

Take your pick of verses but John 3:16,17 sums it up.

16  For God so loved the world (hello? that is everyone), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (anyone!) believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world (even if the WHOLE world believed) through him might be saved.

Pretty simple question with a pretty simple answer.

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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54 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

He had to die for ALL! 

Take your pick of verses but John 3:16,17 sums it up.

16  For God so loved the world (hello? that is everyone), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (anyone!) believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world (even if the WHOLE world believed) through him might be saved.

Pretty simple question with a pretty simple answer.

Question 2, is the Call of God by the Holy Spirit to salvation irresistible?

Edited by Jordan Kurecki
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13 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Since I am not a Calvinist, and not a TULIP believer, and not Reformed - would somebody please drill me, for Wretcheds sake, so he will stop thinking I believe as a Calvinist? Anyone can, just make'm simple questions for my simple mind.

(BTW - I do believe Beza was more of a Calvinist than Calvin, because he is the one that really pushed predestination to its climax.)

Don't bother.

You could post a video of yourself burning Calvin in effigy and it wouldn't be good enough for some people.

Let it go.

 

B.T.W........we treated you just fine at Baptist Symposium..........just sayin.........

 

And yes, it was Beza more than Calvin himself.  You're right about that.  It's also irrelevant on this board.

Edited by Heir of Salvation
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On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 9:16 PM, HappyChristian said:

Just curious if anyone can answer for me a conundrum I've encountered:

How can a person be a 5-pointer and not be Calvinistic?

How can a person be even a "one pointer" and not be Calvinistic?

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You know, I don't mind folks "drilling" folks. I started this thread for an honest discussion about TULIP because of a situation our church is currently facing and am simply seeking input from likeminded brothers and sisters. "Drilling" is a good way to bring out biblical facts that belie the nonsense that is TULIP.  But don't be naming others who have NOT said anything in this thread to warrant their names being drawn into the discussion. That gives the appearance of trolling for trouble. Thanks.

1 hour ago, heartstrings said:

How can a person be even a "one pointer" and not be Calvinistic?

I know, right? But so many folks who claim not to be calvinistic or reformed accept T and P as being biblical and claim that the real problem is "hypercalvinism", which is accepting all 5 points. sigh

 

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We have been studying on the doctrine of Christ from Hebrews 1-5 in our AM services lately. Yesterday we went through chapter 3, and it is interesting what when the author brought up the Israelites in the wilderness tempting God, how they saw His great works, but rejected Him, that it was specifically because they always erred in their hearts, and as such, the Hebrew believers were warned to search themselves, that they not have an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.  Nowhere is there any hint that it was anyone's fault but their own-the Israelites saw God's mighty works in Egypt, in the wilderness, as the Lord parted the sea, provided water from a rock, TWICE, provided manna and quail, even the physical presence of God among them in the pillar of cloud and fire. Yet some STILL rejected and didn't place their trust in Him. This was not because God had predestined them to rejection and damnation, but because they chose to disbelieve. And the warning to the Hebrew believers shows that an unbelieving heart was their choice, else it would not serve any purpose to warn to to take heed to themselves.

Edited by Ukulelemike
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12 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

You know, I don't mind folks "drilling" folks. I started this thread for an honest discussion about TULIP because of a situation our church is currently facing and am simply seeking input from likeminded brothers and sisters. "Drilling" is a good way to bring out biblical facts that belie the nonsense that is TULIP.  

My purpose in posing my question unto Brother Pittman was two-fold.  First, I was meeting his request by granting him an opportunity to reveal his personal position and thereby to defend himself.  Second, I was opening an opportunity for myself to engage in the subject of Calvinistic soteriology and its various points.

In his answer to my question, I believe that Brother Pittman has clearly indicated that he does NOT hold to the Calvinistic position of "limited atonement."

15 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

He had to die for ALL! 

Take your pick of verses but John 3:16,17 sums it up.

16  For God so loved the world (hello? that is everyone), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (anyone!) believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world (even if the WHOLE world believed) through him might be saved.

Pretty simple question with a pretty simple answer.

Indeed, I believe that this is the easiest of the "five points" in Calvinistic soteriology against which to contend, as per the following direct statements of God's Holy Word.  (Which, I believe, is the reason that so many Calvinistic Baptists throughout history have still rejected this particular point of Calvinistic soteriology.)

John 1:29 -- "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

John 3:16 -- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 6:51 -- "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 -- "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: and that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."

1 Timothy 2:6 -- "Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

Hebrews 2:9 -- "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

1 John 2:2 -- "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

1 John 4:14 -- "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world."

Now, some may present certain passages which speak of our Lord Jesus Christ's dying for a particular group of individuals (such as Matthew 1:21, Acts 20:28, etc.) as Biblical evidence for the Calvinistic doctrine of "limited atonement."  However, none of these passages indicate that He died ONLY for the particular group in question.  The fact that He died for that particular group is Biblically accurate.  Yet if the passage does NOT indicate that He died ONLY for that group, then the passage allows for Him to have died ALSO for other groups, or even for ALL.  Indeed, the language of "ONLY" is a necessity for the Calvinistic position of "limited atonement" to be Biblically true; and if that language of "ONLY" is not in God's Word, but the language of "ALL" is in God's Word, then the Calvinistic position of "limited atonement" is found to be Biblically false.

For this point, the challenge that may be set before one holding to the Calvinistic position is this -- Please produce a verse of God's Word which indicates that our Lord Jesus Christ died ONLY for a certain group of individuals (with the emphasis on the word "only").

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
added the concluding line
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13 hours ago, heartstrings said:

How can a person be even a "one pointer" and not be Calvinistic?

I myself would be compelled to disagree with that which you appear to imply by this question.

I myself hold to none of the "five point" of Calvinistic soteriology (as defined by them); however, I do hold to three of the opposing points of Arminian soteriology.  Yet because I reject two of the "five points" of Arminian soteriology (as defined by them), I would NOT consider myself to be an Arminian in my doctrinal position concerning the doctrine of salvation.  Furthermore, I believe that they also would NOT consider me to be one of them because of my rejection of those two points.  Certainly, my doctrinal position concerning the doctrine of salvation IS closer to that of Arminianism than to that of Calvinism.  Yet it is not strictly or accurately the position of Arminianism itself.

Now then, if the above would be true for my position in relation to Arminian soteriology, then I believe that the same consideration must be granted unto another in relation to Calvinistic soteriology.

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The prpoblem with Calvinists and Arminianists is that they seem to view the entirety of Christianity in a 'one of the other' viewpoint. "You'r not a Calvinist (Arminian)? Why, you filthy Arminian (Calvinist!)! They have SO limited their own view of Christianity based upon a couple of guys' views, that it is all they can see anymore.

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23 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

Question 2, is the Call of God by the Holy Spirit to salvation irresistible?

Depends on your definition of 'irresistible'.

Impossible to resist? Is that the word you mean?

If yes - the dictionary says that word wasn't used til about 1597. Calvinism started much earlier.

If you are asking if God forces one to get saved - NO. But he does draw one to get saved - and how could one resist such love? I couldn't.

I think that the idea that the Spirit 'could be' resisted is a made up scenario to produce the idea that gives men an excuse to not believe 'yet'.

Not that I don't think men have a choice, I just see men having a choice to believe because of the truth of the facts. When I believed, there were NO doubts from me that what I heard was true. It NEVER entered my mind to question the gospel or try to resist because I just didn't 'want to' believe yet. That's nonsense. 

In 2 Timothy 3:8 - they resisted the truth - i.e. they did not believe the truth. 

In Acts 7:51 - they did resist the Holy Spirit - but I don't see that as a resistance of salvation but of a resistance of whether what was taught and spoken was true - hence, also, unbelief.

Now in Acts 6:10 the lost were not able to resist "the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake". How could we that are believing what is preached resist the truth of and love of God from the gospel message?

Are there verses showing resistance from a lost person being preached to that resisted the Holy Spirit and refused to get saved 'right then'?

 

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 7:57 AM, Genevanpreacher said:

Since I am not a Calvinist, and not a TULIP believer, and not Reformed - would somebody please drill me, for Wretcheds sake, so he will stop thinking I believe as a Calvinist?

23 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

Question 2, is the Call of God by the Holy Spirit to salvation irresistible?

(Note: I myself would have moved to the Calvinistic doctrine of "total depravity" for my next series of questions.  However, since Brother Kurecki has engaged the Calvinistic doctrine of "irresistible grace," I shall follow his lead.)

Question #2: Does the Lord our God engage in a general call unto all human individuals to be saved, or does He only engage in a specific call unto those whom He has pre-chosen to be saved?  What Biblical evidence would you provide for your answer?

Question #3: Does the Lord our God engage in a general "drawing" upon all human individuals to be saved, or does He only engage in a specific "drawing" upon those whom He has pre-chosen to be saved?  What Biblical evidence would you provide for your answer?

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12 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I myself would be compelled to disagree with that which you appear to imply by this question.

I myself hold to none of the "five point" of Calvinistic soteriology (as defined by them); however, I do hold to three of the opposing points of Arminian soteriology.  Yet because I reject two of the "five points" of Arminian soteriology (as defined by them), I would NOT consider myself to be an Arminian in my doctrinal position concerning the doctrine of salvation.  Furthermore, I believe that they also would NOT consider me to be one of them because of my rejection of those two points.  Certainly, my doctrinal position concerning the doctrine of salvation IS closer to that of Arminianism than to that of Calvinism.  Yet it is not strictly or accurately the position of Arminianism itself.

Now then, if the above would be true for my position in relation to Arminian soteriology, then I believe that the same consideration must be granted unto another in relation to Calvinistic soteriology.

The only thing that I ''imply'' is that each and every one of the 5 petals of the "tulip" IS Calvinism. The first 4 tie together and the last one is just plain unbiblical in it's own right. I would explain more later as I get time.

Edited by heartstrings
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T  - "Total Depravity"

Basically, this is the Calvinist belief that a lost person has no ability to believe or respond to the Gospel. The Bible does say things like "there is none righteous, no not one", and "no man can come to the Father except the Spirit...draw him" etc. I believe that we are unclean, depraved, helpless and hopeless without Christ. But the Word of God says that God dealt with "oh Jerusalem" in Matthew 23, Agrippa in Acts 26, and Felix in Acts 24, and clearly God "drew" all three but all three refused of their own choice.  The Bible says that God draws all men to Himself and men DO have the ability to respond when he draws. You don't just decide one day to become a Christian; You come to God when He deals with your heart and , again, He deals with everybody because He is a JUST God. This Heresy ties directly to the second letter; the "U".

U - "Unconditional Election"

Calvinists teach that only those who God "enables" will respond and that he only "enables" certain ones of His own choosing. So this facet of the "T" ties to the second letter; the "U". God just chooses "elects" or "enables" certain ones of the "totally depraved" simply because he wants to choose those certain ones. Wow! What a lie of the Devil. I have to get back to work. More later.........

 

Oh wait, one more little tidbit for the Calvinists who say this "Total Depravioty" means the dead cannot respond to God. In John chapter 11 Jesus told the disciples plainly "Lazarus is dead":  I believe Lazarus was STILL DEAD when he heard the mighty and powerful voice of Psalm 29 say "Lazarus come forth". Yeah...and the dead STILL hear the voice of the mighty King of Glory today...... I did. (See John 5:25)

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