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Teaching a local only church to universalists


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Okay so I have many times tried to reason with universalists (those that believe the church or the body of Christ is every believer) ... to explain how 'the church' is every time of a particular assembly.. not a universal entity of every believer. 

I know every believer will one day be a church in heaven.. but that is not 'universal, invisible' .. it is still 'local, visible'.

On earth now.. what we have is local bodies of believers.. not one entity of every believer that is somehow 'the church'.

Anyway..

How do you teach this to universalists?  I was one myself.. but no matter what I reason with in scripture.. pretty much nobody gets it!

 

Any advice on how to explain this local only church to universalists?

 

 

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Scripture affirms that a church is a body. If it cannot be assembled it cannot be a body therefore cannot be a church. A pile of body parts spread all over the world can not possibly be a body.

I know this is an over simplification, but it is the best I can do early in the morning without going into a detailed study.

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“The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.” - Proverbs 10:8

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” - 1 Corinthians 1:18

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." - John 14:26

1st Corinthians 12, the entire chapter explains it all to a submissive and teachable heart.  Those universalists look at just verse 13 and forget the rest or redefine what they're looking at.  Either way, they gotta be saved by the blood of the lamb first of all, and then submissive to the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

 

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If you want to teach the doctrine of "local church ONLY" unto those who believe in the doctrine of "universal church ALSO," you must recognize the basic difference between the two positions. 

That difference is NOT - ONE possibility ("the local church only") vs. ONE possibility ("the universal church only"). 

Rather, that difference IS - ONE possibility ("the local church only") vs. TWO possibilities at the same time (both "the local church" and "the universal church").

Therefore, in many of those passages wherein you would present the application unto "the local church," they can completely agree with you without moving from their belief ALSO in "the universal church."  The passage you have presented is acknowledged to be a "local church" passage, and they would not derive their belief in "the universal church" from a "local church" passage.  Rather, they would derive their belief in "the universal church" from what they would consider to be a "universal church" passage.  Therefore, if you want to demonstrate that the doctrine of "the universal church" is false, you must specifically demonstrate that such is not the meaning in those specific passages which they would consider to be a "universal church" passages.  Furthermore, you would have to demonstrate this for EVERY passage which they would consider to be a "universal church" passage, because if even one passage of Scripture teaches "the universal church," then that doctrine does indeed exist as truth.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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Wretched, I must apologize for deleting your last post. It came up as a double post and when I deleted the second one the original disappeared also.

Please feel free to post it again. I know it's a pain to have to write it all over again. Double posting is common on forums because sometimes our computer or the Internet does not respond a quickly as we think it should when we hit the "submit reply" button, so we click it again.

Again, I am sorry for deleting your entire reply.

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16 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

If you want to teach the doctrine of "local church ONLY" unto those who believe in the doctrine of "universal church ALSO," you must recognize the basic difference between the two positions. 

That difference is NOT - ONE possibility ("the local church only") vs. ONE possibility ("the universal church only"). 

Rather, that difference IS - ONE possibility ("the local church only") vs. TWO possibilities at the same time (both "the local church" and "the universal church").

Therefore, in many of those passages wherein you would present the application unto "the local church," they can completely agree with you without moving from their belief ALSO in "the universal church."  The passage you have presented is acknowledged to be a "local church" passage, and they would not derive their belief in "the universal church" from a "local church" passage.  Rather, they would derive their belief in "the universal church" from what they would consider to be a "universal church" passage.  Therefore, if you want to demonstrate that the doctrine of "the universal church" is false, you must specifically demonstrate that such is not the meaning in those specific passages which they would consider to be a "universal church" passages.  Furthermore, you would have to demonstrate this for EVERY passage which they would consider to be a "universal church" passage, because if even one passage of Scripture teaches "the universal church," then that doctrine does indeed exist as truth.

Yes, this is probably where I get a lack of response or non-plussed-ness from those I have discussed it with.  

A primary one that really shows the difference is 1 Corinthians 12:13.  As Swathdriver has shown.. it's not a picture of a universal body of every believer.  But this is a primary scripture universalists will hang their hat on.

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On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 10:55 AM, Jim_Alaska said:

Wretched, I must apologize for deleting your last post. It came up as a double post and when I deleted the second one the original disappeared also.

Please feel free to post it again. I know it's a pain to have to write it all over again. Double posting is common on forums because sometimes our computer or the Internet does not respond a quickly as we think it should when we hit the "submit reply" button, so we click it again.

Again, I am sorry for deleting your entire reply.

No problem Jim,

Let's see, to summarize:

From God's perspective: The Bride or Body or Church is every regenerated believer. In addition He created the local NT church for our perspective.

From our perspective: There is only the local NT church

Or something like that.

 

 

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23 hours ago, wretched said:

No problem Jim,

Let's see, to summarize:

From God's perspective: The Bride or Body or Church is every regenerated believer. In addition He created the local NT church for our perspective.

From our perspective: There is only the local NT church

Or something like that.

 

 

No, the Bride or Body is made up of every Local, Visible, New Testament Church, not individuals.  It is the individual Christians that make up each local, visible, New Testament Church.

At the wedding, there will be many Christians standing with John the Baptists as guests, these are the folks who are saved but were not members of biblical New Testament Churches.  Such may consist of the Catholic lady who got saved at a Billy Graham revival but never left her church, or the rock-n-roller who got saved at a Calvary Chapel and kept on attending until his ascension.

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38 minutes ago, swathdiver said:

No, the Bride or Body is made up of every Local, Visible, New Testament Church, not individuals.

Brother "Swathdiver,"

Could you provide us with some Biblical evidence that the "bride-body of Christ" is made up of local churches, not of Christian individuals?

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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1 Corinthians 12:  What is this a picture of ?

A body of every believer?  

Or the church at Corinth and every other local church God calls His own?

If you are going to call this entity every believer.. it does not fit with any kind of notion of being 'framed together, united, assembled, gathered..' or any of those kinds of words. 

But those kinds of words are what is associated with the body of Christ.

It's like there is this automatic switch that goes on where as soon as 'body of Christ' is mentioned.. everyone just without thinking goes straight to 'every believer' or 'all regenerated'

 

So anyway--

1 Corinthians 12:

 

(1Co 12:12)  For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

 

one body.. with a member being an individual believer...  this does not mean though that there are no other bodies.. the body in question is at Corinth.

(1Co 12:13)  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Paul was baptised by full immersion in reference to a local body..  not Corinth.  The other members of the church at Corinth were baptised in reference to that body at Corinth.  No violation of scripture.  

It is also with the concept of the royal 'we'...   a speaker could come to a church and say 'we' in reference to a topic.. but he is really meaning the church he is talking to.  Or meaning His own church.. and there church.. as examples.  

(1Co 12:14)  For the body is not one member, but many. many individuals in a local church body.. making the one body.

(1Co 12:15)  If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?  

(1Co 12:16)  And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

(1Co 12:17)  If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

(1Co 12:18)  But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

(1Co 12:19)  And if they were all one member, where were the body?

(1Co 12:20)  But now are they many members, yet but one body.

(1Co 12:21)  And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

(1Co 12:22)  Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

(1Co 12:23)  And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

(1Co 12:24)  For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:

(1Co 12:25)  That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

(1Co 12:26)  And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

 

Look at this language.. these terms.. this is of something visible and united and assembled.. not 'universal, invisible'

(1Co 12:27)  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

And here is the clincher!  ye are the body of Christ--- who is the 'ye'?

It is not every believer...!  'ye' is the church body at Corinth.

 

And also---

using the word 'local' in front of church.  This is a bit silly.  Same with using 'local' in front of body.  They are local by their definition!  Church = ecclessia-- called out assembly, gathering, public meeting.  

Body- by definition is framed together, knit together, united, visible, assembled, gathered etc..

So the use of the word 'local' is a misnomer. It is local every time without needing the word added to church or body.

Again.. there will be a church of every believer in heaven.. but that is still.. 'visible, local'  and is 'yet, future' 

The state of all christians now is being part of the Family of God.  That is not a body of Christ though.

 

 

 

Edited by 360watt
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I must point out that the specific phrase "body of Christ" occurs only four times in the KJV.

Twice it refers to the actual physical body of Jesus Christ, and the other two times it is distinctively and directly reated to the local church.

The specific phrase "body of Christ" should only ever be used to refer to a local church.

The term "body" is not as cut and dried although it is my opinion (note - OPINION) that it also is applicable primarily to local churches.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion ofthe blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body ofChrist, and members in particular.

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

 

Note: the phrase "body of Jesus Christ also appears once, in reference to His physical body.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

Just sayin'...........

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1 hour ago, DaveW said:

I must point out that the specific phrase "body of Christ" occurs only four times in the KJV.

Twice it refers to the actual physical body of Jesus Christ, and the other two times it is distinctively and directly reated to the local church.

The specific phrase "body of Christ" should only ever be used to refer to a local church.

The term "body" is not as cut and dried although it is my opinion (note - OPINION) that it also is applicable primarily to local churches.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion ofthe blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body ofChrist, and members in particular.

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

 

Note: the phrase "body of Jesus Christ also appears once, in reference to His physical body.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

Just sayin'...........

And how many times is the phrase "his body" used, wherein the pronoun "his" refers unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

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