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What must I do to be saved?


coc333

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Kevin,

Thank you for attempting to answer my questions.

I would also like to say that I appreciate your honesty about still needing to study some of these verses to understand them. If you will allow me, I will be glad to help you with them.

First, we have Acts 2:38. You say that the only explanation that you possibly have is that it means ?because of.? There are a couple of problems with this view. First, the Greek word for ?for? is ?eis? and this word does not mean ?because of.? No reputable Greek lexicon/concordance translates it as such. Study the various Bible translations and you will find that even poor translations such as the NIV fail to translate ?eis? as ?because of.? Simply put, it means ?unto,? ?toward,? etc. The second problem that we find is that ?for (eis)? applies to both words: ?repent? and ?be baptized.? So, if we are baptized ?because of? the remission of sins then we are to repent ?because of? the remission of sins. Does it make sense to you to say repent ?because of? remission of your sins?

Acts 9:9-11 is related in that it helps us to better understand Acts 22:16. They are telling about the same event. Acts 9:9-11 teaches us that Saul (Paul) spent 3 days fasting and praying after Jesus told him to go into Damascus and wait for someone to tell him what he must do. Acts 22:16 tells us that Ananias told him to arise and be baptized?. Saul needed to do something though he had been praying and fasting for 3 days.

Now you say that this passage presents a problem for me as well as you. With all due respect, this passage poses no problem for what I have said. First allow me to quickly review to get us to where we need to be. The plan of salvation includes 1. God?s part which is Grace (i.e. He sent Jesus to die for us) and 2. Man?s part which is obedience (i.e. 1. Hear the word (Rom 10:17); 2. Believe (Heb 11:6); 3. Repent of our sins (Luke 13:3); 4. Confess Christ (Matt 10:32-33); and 5. Be baptized (Acts 2:38). I offer but one verse for each so as not to take up too much space. Now, keeping these things in mind we ask well why did Ananias not tell Saul all of this? Why did he begin with baptism? Simple answer. Ananias began at the point that Saul was at. He did not need to tell Saul to believe because he already did. He did not need to tell him to repent because he already had?.. You see the point? Ananias simply took Saul from the point that he was at to the point he needed to be.

Now, you mentioned that he also put baptism before ?calling on the name of the Lord.? Again, let us consider this passage. ?Being baptized? is the same thing as ?calling on the name of the Lord.? We call upon the name of the Lord when we submit to Him in baptism.

Now, since you relate the rest of the passages together, we will consider them together. You say that you believe that this is referring to ?the baptism of the Holy Spirit.? But, you see that since we have baptism in water and the baptism of the HS in consideration that we have a potential conflict with Eph 4:5 which tells us that there is but one baptism. This is not a problem at all. Who was Paul writing to in this letter? He was writing to the Ephesians of course. (Eph 1:1) So, we must ask ourselves, what would they understand this passage to mean? Well, let us examine Acts 19:1-5. This tells us of Paul coming up certain Ephesians who had not received the HS (not the miraculous for that could only be given to them by the laying on of the hands of the Apostles as we see in verse 6ff). He baptized them (in water). So, when he wrote to the Ephesians that there was but one baptism they would clearly understand what he was speaking of. A study of the baptism of the HS is a detail discussion that we will save for another time. But I will say this much. This is not something that applies to all Christians but occurred but twice, maybe 3 times (Acts 2 (the Apostles), 10 (Cornilious and other Gentiles) and possibly upon Paul)

Though you have attempted to explain away Grace in Eph 2:8-10, we are still left with the fact that this verse clearly shows that we are not saved by faith only. James 2:24 specifically states that we are not. We have no verse that says we are saved by faith only but we do have a passage that says we are not. I am left with no other conclusion than that we are NOT saved by faith only.

Acts 10:42ff is not an issue either. Again as I reference above, the HS falling upon them is the miraculous and is the Baptism of the HS. This was to demonstrate to Peter and the other Jews that God had made Salvation available to the Gentiles. They were then baptized for the remission of their sins.

Acts 2:21 again ?calling on the name of the Lord? is shown in Acts 22:16 to refer to being baptized.

Yes, we must believe (John 3:16) and I have not denied that but indeed have pointed that out. But, we are not saved by faith only and you can not present even one verse that teaches that we are. Not one. Study James 2:14-26 closely and it will help you to understand this. I will leave this passage for you to study for yourself. We can look at it later if you would like. But, notice specifically James 2:18. Also study Heb 11 and notice what true faith is. Notice these great examples that we are given. Faith is active not some sort of passive thing. We have faith when we obey God?s will.

With all due respect, God did not leave baptism off. He said it in so many passages that we only miss it if we don?t want to see it. It is there.

Again, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions and again I appreciate that you admitted that you need to study some of the passages further. I hope that what I have presented to you will be helpful. (Rom 1:16) Kevin, I hope that I am always studying various views with an open mind. But, I must also say that having an open mind does not mean that I will be convinced by the argument. You have presented nothing that teaches that we are saved by faith only or that teaches that baptism is not required. I must continue to stand on what the Gospel teaches. I hope that you will consider these things with an open mind and I pray that your eyes will be open to the truth.

In Christ,

Robert

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I could say a lot more but I have one simple question for now. Is baptism a work or is it not?


A work of obedience for certain. A work of merit not even close. And before you respond with what Paul said in Eph 2:8-10 consider two facts. First, he was saying that we are not saved by works of merit which is certainly true. Second, notice that verse 10 teaches that faith is also a work which would mean that if all works of any kind are illiminated then so is faith. Can't have it both ways Kevin.

In Christ,

Robert
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Acts 2;38 is the verse thrown out the most often in this thread as proof that one must be baptized in order to be saved. Well let's look at that then. First, let's go to the book of John, or the Book of Matthew for that matter. Why was John baptizing in the river Jordan? Why did Jesus need baptized? Did he need saved? Is it not true that baptism for the Jews was a sign of change. Hence the reason John told them to "Repent and be baptized". But the point has been made that we can only access the redempting blood of Christ through water baptism. If this is so, To what was the baptism of John linked? Seeing as how the blood had not yet been shed. Peter spoke of baptism in the same manner in which John did. Water baptism as a sign of change. The baptism of the Holy Spirit which is given by Christ is the most important baptism. And it's received only by placing faith in Christ. Let's stop here for now. I will ask more questions later.

In Christ

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Good point, Bro. Ed. There are a lot of holes in the argument for baptism being necessary for salvation and it just doesn't fit with the rest of Scripture. The word "works" means simply a deed, an action. It doesn't say anything about it being a work of merit, that's adding to the Scriptures. Faith is not an action, it is a state of your heart. There is more I could say about the subject but I don't feel like it after writing my longest post ever. lol Plus, it's hard to argue with anyone of any denomination who's been seminary-educated. They are taught the pet doctrines of their college and taught all the right arguments on how to defend them and nothing can ever be resolved upon because it will just continue going around and round.

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We just cannot expect a lost person to understand how one is saved, they cannot discenr God's truths from
the Holy Bible.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor 2:14-16 (KJV)

I've asked those people who believe one must be baptized to enter heaven, if they are talking with some on Thursday night, and they want to be baptized to be saved will they baptize them right them.

I always get this answer, no, we will do the baptizing at a convenient time.

I them ask when would be a convenient time, most often they will say Sunday morning.

Them I ask, what if on the way to church Sunday morning to be baptized and they're in a car wreck and die, will that mean they will not enter heaven?

Their reply is usually God will take care of take.

Them I ask, that person may just go to heave them, is that what you saying.

Them they say, no we're saying God will take care of it.

Yes, lost people just cannot discern God's Word, so they just can't understand that those who put their faith in baptizing have miss placed their faith and will never see heaven and thus the verses below just do not make sense to them.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)

They just cannot comprehend that this verse means that one is baptized because of remission of sin and accepting Jesus as their Savior.

Its clear in the pages of the Bible, that remission of sin only comes by repenting of ones sin, asking forgiveness, confessing, them accepting Christ as Savior.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 (KJV)

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-16 (KJV)

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:8 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31 (KJV)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24 (KJV)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16 {does not say he that believeth not shall be damned)

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:38 (KJV)

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:41 (KJV)

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32 (KJV)

Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:8 (KJV)

Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

You can argue with them till the cows come home, it will do no good, the only way you can help them is to try and get them to accept Christ as Savior.

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We just cannot expect a lost person to understand how one is saved, they cannot discenr God's truths from
the Holy Bible.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor 2:14-16 (KJV)

I've asked those people who believe one must be baptized to enter heaven, if they are talking with some on Thursday night, and they want to be baptized to be saved will they baptize them right them.

I always get this answer, no, we will do the baptizing at a convenient time.

I them ask when would be a convenient time, most often they will say Sunday morning.

Them I ask, what if on the way to church Sunday morning to be baptized and they're in a car wreck and die, will that mean they will not enter heaven?

Their reply is usually God will take care of take.

Them I ask, that person may just go to heave them, is that what you saying.

Them they say, no we're saying God will take care of it.

Yes, lost people just cannot discern God's Word, so they just can't understand that those who put their faith in baptizing have miss placed their faith and will never see heaven and thus the verses below just do not make sense to them.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:38 (KJV)

They just cannot comprehend that this verse means that one is baptized because of remission of sin and accepting Jesus as their Savior.

Its clear in the pages of the Bible, that remission of sin only comes by repenting of ones sin, asking forgiveness, confessing, them accepting Christ as Savior.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 (KJV)

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:15-16 (KJV)

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:8 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31 (KJV)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24 (KJV)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV)

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mark 16:16 {does not say he that believeth not shall be damned)

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:38 (KJV)

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:41 (KJV)

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32 (KJV)

Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:8 (KJV)

Isaiah 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

You can argue with them till the cows come home, it will do no good, the only way you can help them is to try and get them to accept Christ as Savior.



Agreed, 100%!
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Hello again,

This is a general response to the postings that have been made since my last post. Since each of you have ignored the clear evidence that disproves each argument that you continue to make, I take that as a statement that not one of you are interested in the truth but simply in the false teaching of a denomination. That is of course a decision that each of you must make for yourself.

I do feel compelled to clear up on statement that you made Jerry. You say that the people you have spoken to who believe in the necessity of baptism for salvation has upon your questioning them said that they would wait until Sunday if it was say Thursday when someone wanted to be baptized. This of course would present the person claiming to believe in baptism in a bit of a contradiction. I do not know who you have been speaking with, but I can assure you that speaking for myself and everyone I know within the Lord's church, I would not make such a statement. It would not matter the least what time of day or night it was if someone wanted to obey the Gospel. I would be there and gladly help them to do so. Let me say it again...it could be 3:00 in the moring or any other time and I would get out of bed and go baptize someone or even go watch as someone else did. Jerry, baptism is taught as being necessary to salvation. I have provided multiple verses that not one person on here has been able to refute. It is important and any Christian would gladly get up and help a person obey the Gospel. If he/she would not, then they show themselves to be poor servants of the Lord.

Now, I will say this: if you guys are going to do nothing but present the same tired and disproven arguments while ignoring the truth then there is really no reason for me to say any more on this subject to you. I hope that those who are overseeing this site will leave this thread up so that anyone who wishes to see the truth can. I am here and will continue to post and will gladly answer anything that you have to offer that is new.

In Christ,

Robert

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We didn't ask you to come and teach us and you display an amazing amount of arrogance to assume that we are poor blind people in need of the light that you can provide. I follow no denomination and am unaffiliated. I serve God alone and follow only His Word. You also have been unable to answer verses to the contrary in any kind of adequate fashion. You are entrenched in what you believe and can only respond in stereotypical arguments that I can only assume you learned at seminary. It is impossible to deny that baptism is a work = deed = unbiblical.

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I've asked both members of the coC and Pentecostals the question about baptizing.

If my past sins are forgiven when I am baptized in water, and it is possible for me to "lose my salvation" and go to hell after being baptized, then wouldn't my best chance of going to heaven be to drown in the baptistery? Before I had a chance to sin so as to be lost again? If I wanted to be absolutely sure of heaven, isn't that my best opportunity?

John 3:36 He that beleeueth on the Sonne, hath euerlasting life: and he that beleeueth not the Sonne, shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Please take notice, it does not say he who is not baptized hath everlasting life, but he that believes.

And it does not say he that is not baptized shall not see life and the wrath of God abideth on him, but he who does not believe on the Son of God.

Joh 3:15 That whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue eternall life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

And it says, he who believes has eternal life, if one is lost again after being saved them this promise from God is false and we cannot believe anything the Bible says.

Being as you bring up being saved, if you were to die today would you go to heaven? God does want you to have assurance, and you can have it.

Have you ever repented of your sins, have you confessed your sin to God, have you accepted Jesus as your Savior.

There is only one way.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saued, through faith, and that not of your selues: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of workes, lest any man should boast.

Its by the grace of God thru faith in Jesus, not of yourself, not of works.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus is standing at the door knocking, how about opening that door and accept Jesus as your Savior today, it is the only way to the Father.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Some 2000 years ago Jesus died on that cross to pay our sin debt, there is only one way to clear up that debt.

1pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And that is simply by repenting, confessing, and accepting that free gift that God offers you. Baptizing will not save you, but Jesus can and will, but its up to you.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Again, notice it only says the that believeth, not he that is baptized.

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

But its up to you, trust your soul to Christ or to a man baptizing you. Why not trust Him today and accept that free wonderful gift God is offering you?

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I've asked both members of the coC and Pentecostals the question about baptizing.

If my past sins are forgiven when I am baptized in water, and it is possible for me to "lose my salvation" and go to hell after being baptized, then wouldn't my best chance of going to heaven be to drown in the baptistery? Before I had a chance to sin so as to be lost again? If I wanted to be absolutely sure of heaven, isn't that my best opportunity?

John 3:36 He that beleeueth on the Sonne, hath euerlasting life: and he that beleeueth not the Sonne, shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Please take notice, it does not say he who is not baptized hath everlasting life, but he that believes.

And it does not say he that is not baptized shall not see life and the wrath of God abideth on him, but he who does not believe on the Son of God.

Joh 3:15 That whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue eternall life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

And it says, he who believes has eternal life, if one is lost again after being saved them this promise from God is false and we cannot believe anything the Bible says.

Being as you bring up being saved, if you were to die today would you go to heaven? God does want you to have assurance, and you can have it.

Have you ever repented of your sins, have you confessed your sin to God, have you accepted Jesus as your Savior.

There is only one way.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saued, through faith, and that not of your selues: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of workes, lest any man should boast.

Its by the grace of God thru faith in Jesus, not of yourself, not of works.

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus is standing at the door knocking, how about opening that door and accept Jesus as your Savior today, it is the only way to the Father.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Some 2000 years ago Jesus died on that cross to pay our sin debt, there is only one way to clear up that debt.

1pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

And that is simply by repenting, confessing, and accepting that free gift that God offers you. Baptizing will not save you, but Jesus can and will, but its up to you.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Again, notice it only says the that believeth, not he that is baptized.

Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

But its up to you, trust your soul to Christ or to a man baptizing you. Why not trust Him today and accept that free wonderful gift God is offering you?



Amen , Jerry #'s :amen:

And I would ask also, since the coc says you're not saved unless you've been baptised:
Is the theif that died on the cross, that called on the Lord, believing in Him -- in hell because he was not baptised?
OH! wait, maybe they held a proxy baptism for him similar to the Mormons...
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who is the they? the coc?

and what was the different dispensation at that time?

Did dispensations switch for one day and then back to something else?

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who is the they? the coc?

and what was the different dispensation at that time?

Did dispensations switch for one day and then back to something else?

Yeah, coc'ers. It comes from a dispensational view of Scripture, meaning there were different ways to get saved at different times in Scriptural history.
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So, according to a "coc'er";

"Suzy Q" is bedridden, a lost wicked sinner. She is witnessed to about the Lord Jesus Christ, convicted of her sin, repents of her wickedness and places her faith in the Lord Jesus and Him alone. But dies before she could/and maybe she could not go through a baptism.


Where would Suzy Q go?

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