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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
         11
      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

GenevanPreacher, do you?

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3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

:o can't ya just feel the excitement building?

Gives me goose pimples!

You asked for time.

Time has been given.

Surely time enough.

Time now to give the "study" that you have apparently done,  or give a reason as to why you can't. 

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On 7/28/2016 at 1:13 PM, Genevanpreacher said:

It does if you read the first few verses of Genesis 1 and focus on the light and darkness getting separated by God, with that being the creation of the Angels, with the devils being what the Angels were separated from, making the devils the residue left behind.

Sorry. Had to post and run!

I would be interested in a new topic thread exploring the light and darkness concept as it relates to God and angels, etc. Additionally how the saints will shine as stars, etc. Is it literal or figurative language to describe spiritual truths?, etc. Not sure if discussion of the topic here among GP's "inquisition" would be productive.

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On 8/10/2016 at 4:20 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

GP,

Snide remarks will not take the place of the Scripture that has been asked for by many on this board.

If you cannot, or will not provide the asked for Scripture that shows your position, then your "man made" arguments are exactly what you accused others of.

Based on Scripture provided by others and lack of the same by you, the only conclusion anyone could come to is that it is indeed your "story" that holds no credibility and is therefore "man made."

No snide remarks here. And yes, Jim, I know, as everyone has SO generously reminded me of every chance they get, that my 'arguments' are 'man made' - as theirs is.

Just keying in and letting you all know I am still active.

I remember a time a while back when Bro. Scott or Bro. Steve were asked to give a study on a subject, they made a comment that because of time restraints it would be a while before they could post it - and they were very graciously given the time AND understanding.

I have sadly not been treated as such.

Thanks guys.

But just so you all know - I am actively doing my study in my own time and plan to post the results soon as I can.

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You made the time to post a remark such as the one quoted above, with its 'tone' as described by Jim, but could not add to the end of it your final remark at the end of your last post?

You might note that I, and it appears others, had not pursued further until your "excitement building" post.

We WERE giving you time,  but you gave no indication that you were preparing a response, just a childish irrelevant remark with no context.

I look forward to see the results of your study, such as it may be.

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8 hours ago, DaveW said:

You made the time to post a remark such as the one quoted above, with its 'tone' as described by Jim, but could not add to the end of it your final remark at the end of your last post?

You might note that I, and it appears others, had not pursued further until your "excitement building" post.

We WERE giving you time,  but you gave no indication that you were preparing a response, just a childish irrelevant remark with no context.

I look forward to see the results of your study, such as it may be.

Now THAT was a snide remark!

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27 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Now THAT was a snide remark!

Actually no. It looks more like an expression of anticipation in light of your previous posts in this thread.

I believe that Dave was correct when he said, " others had not pursued further ", in regard to you asking for more time. Take all the time you need, but I have to wonder how much time it takes to copy and paste just one verse that supports your position in this thread.

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Actually my remark was based in this statement that you made earlier in this thread:

On 7/30/2016 at 6:19 PM, Genevanpreacher said:

There are years worth of studying in what I believe,  so I don't have the time to explain every little jot and tittle for why I believe, but there you go, you got the root of what I believe about this subject. 

Compared to:

17 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

But just so you all know - I am actively doing my study in my own time and plan to post the results soon as I can.

But you already said you have "years worth of studying", why can you not simply present some of those "years worth of study" which you have constantly failed to present?

 

It is this contradiction of your own statements that led to my remark "...such as it may be", for it is apparently both a new study and yet "years of study".

What form will it take, and what sort of basis has it? We will see eventually (maybe). Whatever form it takes, or "such as it may be".

 

 

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POST #1

We shall start our study of Ezekiel 28 with Isaiah 23 - Where, for details sake, we see many things will occur against the city of Tyrus, also known as Tyre.

Tyre/Tyrus was THE major supplier of trade and goods for a big chunk of the world during their time of existence before Christ. They were a trade 'power' like nobody else on earth that the scriptures record.

A few comments will suffice for this chapter as support that the King of Tyrus in Ezekiel 28 is, in fact, just a King, and not the Devil or Satan.Obviously the Prophet here is showing what punishment shall be seen upon Tyrus and her people and King in verse 1 - it is a burden and has been or will be laid waste.

"The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish; for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in:"

The end of verse 1 til verse 7 is the testimony of the witnesses that the facts are truly disturbing in front of the nations who valued their supplies for trade from Tyrus. 

"...from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them.

2 Be still, ye inhabitants of the isle; thou whom the merchants of Zidon, that pass over the sea, have replenished.

3 And by great waters the seed of Sihor, the harvest of the river, is her revenue; and she is a mart of nations.

4 Be thou ashamed, O Zidon: for the sea hath spoken, eventhe strength of the sea, saying, I travail not, nor bring forth children, neither do I nourish up young men, nor bring up virgins.

5 As at the report concerning Egypt, so shall they be sorely pained at the report of Tyre.

6 Pass ye over to Tarshish; howl, ye inhabitants of the isle.

7 Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her afar off to sojourn."

Verse 8 deals with the fact of who Tyrus was to the nations she dealt with in her trade - a much needed supplier!

"Who hath taken this counsel against Tyre, the crowning city, whose merchants are princes, whose traffickers are the honourable of the earth?"

Verses 9-14 are showing the Lords judgement upon Tyrus is great!

"The LORD of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth.

10 Pass through thy land as a river, O daughter of Tarshish: there is no more strength.

11 He stretched out his hand over the sea, he shook the kingdoms: the LORD hath given a commandment against the merchant city, to destroy the strong holds thereof.

12 And he said, Thou shalt no more rejoice, O thou oppressed virgin, daughter of Zidon: arise, pass over to Chittim; there also shalt thou have no rest.

13 Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, till the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; and he brought it to ruin.

14 Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for your strength is laid waste."

And then comes the clincher - the 70 year punishment - just like the 70 years that Israel would be Nebuchadnezzar's possession, upon Tyrus for lifting their 'power' and 'pride' SO high! 

*Please notice the last verse as it is a support for a later comment.

"15 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot.

16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.

17 And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

18 And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD: it shall not be treasured nor laid up; for her merchandise shall be for them that dwell before the LORD, to eat sufficiently, and for durable clothing*."

She was destroyed, and her 'customers' mourned her loss immensely. She was referred to by Christ as an example of repentance that did not occur.

 "20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you."

 

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POST #2

When we look at Ezekiel 28, we must look at chapter 26 first.

"1 And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:

3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.

6 And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

This is where we see the reason the Lord chose 70 years for the punishment of Tyrus from the reference made in POST #1.

The 70 years that Nebuchadnezzar had Israel in it's grasp, was going to be the same punishment for ol' Tyre.

We see more in the following verses of chapter 26 of Ezekiel -

"7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.

9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.

10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.

11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.

12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.

14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD."

Notice - 

"15 Thus saith the Lord GOD to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee?

16 Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling; they shall sit upon the ground, and shall tremble at every moment, and be astonished at thee.

17 And they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and say to thee, How art thou destroyed, that wast inhabited of seafaring men, the renowned city, which wast strong in the sea, she and her inhabitants, which cause their terror to be on all that haunt it!

18 Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure."

A couple of underlined words there - one's that mean something? Yes.

Tyrus will FALL. The merchants will be ASTONISHED. Tyre is being judged by the Lord and it will affect the earth everywhere! These fellow leaders will put off their "broidered garments" - garments which Tyre obviously supplied them as we will see later.

In the last verses of Ezekiel 26 we see - 

"19 For thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall make thee a desolate city, like the cities that are not inhabited; when I shall bring up the deep upon thee, and great waters shall cover thee;

20 When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living;

21 I will make thee a terror, and thou shalt be no more: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD."

Very interesting comparison with verses we shall look at in another post.

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POST #3

Moving on to the next chapter in Ezekiel - 27 - we see more interesting things about the City of Tyrus -

The beauty of Tyrus!

"1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2 Now, thou son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyrus;

3 And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.

4 Thy borders are in the midst of the seas, thy builders have perfected thy beauty."

The beauty of Tyrus is unquestionable here. And their pride of it is their failure!

Verses 5-25 describe their suppliers for their wares and where they are and what they supplied -

"5 They have made all thy ship boards of fir trees of Senir: they have taken cedars from Lebanon to make masts for thee.

6 Of the oaks of Bashan have they made thine oars; the company of the Ashurites have made thy benches of ivory,brought out of the isles of Chittim.

7 Fine linen with broidered work from Egypt was that which thou spreadest forth to be thy sail; blue and purple from the isles of Elishah was that which covered thee.

8 The inhabitants of Zidon and Arvad were thy mariners: thy wise men, O Tyrus, that were in thee, were thy pilots.

9 The ancients of Gebal and the wise men thereof were in thee thy calkers: all the ships of the sea with their mariners were in thee to occupy thy merchandise.

10 They of Persia and of Lud and of Phut were in thine army, thy men of war: they hanged the shield and helmet in thee; they set forth thy comeliness.

11 The men of Arvad with thine army were upon thy walls round about, and the Gammadims were in thy towers: they hanged their shields upon thy walls round about; they have made thy beauty perfect.

12 Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all kind of riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs.

13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech, they were thy merchants: they traded the persons of men and vessels of brass in thy market.

14 They of the house of Togarmah traded in thy fairs with horses and horsemen and mules.

15 The men of Dedan were thy merchants; many isles were the merchandise of thine hand: they brought thee for a present horns of ivory and ebony.

16 Syria was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of the wares of thy making: they occupied in thy fairs with emeralds, purple, and broidered work, and fine linen, and coral, and agate.

17 Judah, and the land of Israel, they were thy merchants: they traded in thy market wheat of Minnith, and Pannag, and honey, and oil, and balm.

18 Damascus was thy merchant in the multitude of the wares of thy making, for the multitude of all riches; in the wine of Helbon, and white wool.

19 Dan also and Javan going to and fro occupied in thy fairs: bright iron, cassia, and calamus, were in thy market.

20 Dedan was thy merchant in precious clothes for chariots.

21 Arabia, and all the princes of Kedar, they occupied with thee in lambs, and rams, and goats: in these were they thy merchants.

22 The merchants of Sheba and Raamah, they were thy merchants: they occupied in thy fairs with chief of all spices, and with all precious stones, and gold.

23 Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad, were thy merchants.

24 These were thy merchants in all sorts of things, in blue clothes, and broidered work, and in chests of rich apparel, bound with cords, and made of cedar, among thy merchandise.

25 The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas."

In verses 26-34 we see a reaction and effects from the merchants toward Tyrus -

"26 Thy rowers have brought thee into great waters: the east wind hath broken thee in the midst of the seas.

27 Thy riches, and thy fairs, thy merchandise, thy mariners, and thy pilots, thy calkers, and the occupiers of thy merchandise, and all thy men of war, that are in thee, and in all thy company which is in the midst of thee, shall fall into the midst of the seas in the day of thy ruin.

28 The suburbs shall shake at the sound of the cry of thy pilots.

29 And all that handle the oar, the mariners, and all the pilots of the sea, shall come down from their ships, they shall stand upon the land;

30 And shall cause their voice to be heard against thee, and shall cry bitterly, and shall cast up dust upon their heads, they shall wallow themselves in the ashes:

31 And they shall make themselves utterly bald for thee, and gird them with sackcloth, and they shall weep for thee with bitterness of heart and bitter wailing.

32 And in their wailing they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and lament over thee, saying, What city is like Tyrus, like the destroyed in the midst of the sea?

33 When thy wares went forth out of the seas, thou filledst many people; thou didst enrich the kings of the earth with the multitude of thy riches and of thy merchandise.

34 In the time when thou shalt be broken by the seas in the depths of the waters thy merchandise and all thy company in the midst of thee shall fall.

35 All the inhabitants of the isles shall be astonished at thee, and their kings shall be sore afraid, they shall be troubled in their countenance.

Then there is that curious phrase again - 

36 The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more.

 

Some good details here for the next chapter in question - 28. Supper time!!

 

**I will finish up the final chapter later, as you peruse these 3 chapters and focus on 'what in the world is he gonna say?'.**

Edited by Genevanpreacher
forgot some verses...again!
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6 hours ago, DaveW said:

Actually my remark was based in this statement that you made earlier in this thread:

Compared to:

But you already said you have "years worth of studying", why can you not simply present some of those "years worth of study" which you have constantly failed to present?

 

It is this contradiction of your own statements that led to my remark "...such as it may be", for it is apparently both a new study and yet "years of study".

What form will it take, and what sort of basis has it? We will see eventually (maybe). Whatever form it takes, or "such as it may be".

No contradiction at all Dave - the first quote you gave from me was about the light and darkness issue, and the second quote was about my challenge from Bro. Scott about Ezekiel 28. Two different issues. I am handling Bro. Scotts issue first.

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POST #4

Last post on whether the King of Tyrus is the devil or a description of the devil and his fall.

Looking at the first section of the chapter - 28 - we see -

"1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:

6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;

7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.

8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.

9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD."

I see here a prince, a man, that the Lord is not happy with at all. A man with way too much pride. A pride that makes him think too highly of himself as a human, and to him, more than just a mere human. 

Yes he is pretty smart, but not smart enough to proclaim that God is where he gets his abilities.

So the Lord is gonna take care of him, and right well too.

In the next section of verses we see the Lord clarifying what is going to happen to this prince -

"11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

20 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

21 Son of man, set thy face against Zidon, and prophesy against it,

22 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.

23 For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

24 And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

25 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.

26 And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God."

Now about some answers - 

Is this about King Ithobaal III or the creature called Satan, who some claim was Lucifer before his prideful fall?

Let's look at some details that are questioned by some in the last 1/2 of this chapter:

1. What is this in reference to? -

    "Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty."

What does chapter 27:3-4 say?

    "3 And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.

4 Thy borders are in the midst of the seas, thy builders have perfected thy beauty."

Obviously the city itself was 'made' beauty when it was created by perfecting it.

2. What about this? -

     "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God"

What does it say in chapter 27:23?

    "Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad, were thy merchants."

It is very probable that the King had been in Eden "the garden of God", as it was thought to be back then. The King would have no problem being in a land he dealt business with.

3. What about this? -

    "every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:"

Read what chapter 27 says in the following verses -

"7 Fine linen with broidered work from Egypt was that which thou spreadest forth to be thy sail; blue and purple from the isles of Elishah was that which covered thee."

"16 Syria was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of the wares of thy making: they occupied in thy fairs with emeralds, purple, and broidered work, and fine linen, and coral, and agate."

"22 The merchants of Sheba and Raamah, they were thy merchants: they occupied in thy fairs with chief of all spices, and with all precious stones, and gold."

"24 These were thy merchants in all sorts of things, in blue clothes, and broidered work, and in chests of rich apparel, bound with cords, and made of cedar, among thy merchandise."

His covering was natural clothing 'broidered' with decorations as such described. Nothing 'angelic'.

4. What about this? - 

    "the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

It is very probable that the things mentioned in this following verse are objects to be made into 'pipes' and 'tabrets' from 27:13&15 -

"Javan, Tubal, and Meshech, they were thy merchants: they traded the persons of men and vessels of brass in thy market."

"The men of Dedan were thy merchants; many isles were the merchandise of thine hand: they brought thee for a present horns of ivory and ebony."

Now the BIG one - :o

5.What about this verse? -

    "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:" 

The following verses will show that the 'covering cherub' reference was to the fact that many people 'got' their 'coverings' from Tyrus, and they were beautiful and desirous coverings, thus making the King of Tyrus the 'covering cherub'. The great one from whom all wanted their coverings to come from.

"16 Syria was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of the wares of thy making: they occupied in thy fairs with emeralds, purple, and broidered work, and fine linen, and coral, and agate."

"20 Dedan was thy merchant in precious clothes for chariots."

"24 These were thy merchants in all sorts of things, in blue clothes, and broidered work, and in chests of rich apparel, bound with cords, and made of cedar, among thy merchandise."

Yes, the King of Tyrus was a 'handler' in the finer things in life, such as 'coverings'. This has nothing to do with the throne of God.

6. What about this verse? -

     "...thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

Once again, it is not improbable that the King of Tyre walked "upon the holy mountain of God". He DID do business with Jerusalem -

"17 Judah, and the land of Israel, they were thy merchants: they traded in thy market wheat of Minnith, and Pannag, and honey, and oil, and balm."

The "stones of fire" could be the valley of Achor as referenced in Joshua 7:24-26 -

"24 And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.

25 And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

26 And they raised over him a great heap of stones unto this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Wherefore the name of that place was called, The valley of Achor, unto this day."

The valley of Achor is the northern boundary between Judah and Benjamin.

So it is very probable that the King of Tyrus was here also. Not the devil or Lucifer.

7. What about this verse? -

    "15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

What does verse 14 of chapter 28 say? -

"and I have set thee so:"

That is when he was 'created', not before mankind, and because he was an angel, but because the Lord 'set him up' to be the King (even though he did not turn out to be the King he was supposed to be.)

The iniquity was - pride about Jerusalems 'wasted' land -

"2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:

3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.

4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.

5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations."

And -

"16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

That about covers it. 

I believe as the verses above show, in my opinion, that the King of Tyrus was just that, a human King with obvious flaws in judgement and pride. And the Lord took care of him, and wound up using his nation later on after its destruction as an example to other cities that wanted to live without the Lord and his laws and gospel, to turn their hearts to him.

I hope this shows something to someone.

(BTW - remember Hiram King of Tyre? It was from his city that David got all the material to build his palace and Solomon his.)

 

 

 

 

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First failure:  In his explanation above, Brother "Genevanpreacher" does not distinguish between the Lord God's pronouncement of judgment upon the city and land of Tyre as presented in Isaiah 23 & Ezekiel 26-27, from God's pronouncement of judgment upon "the prince of Tyrus" as presented in Ezekiel 28:1-10, from God's pronouncement of Judgment upon "the king of Tyrus" as presented in Ezekiel 28:11-19.
 

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 8:12 PM, Genevanpreacher said:

Now the BIG one - :o

5.What about this verse? -

    "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:" 

The following verses will show that the 'covering cherub' reference was to the fact that many people 'got' their 'coverings' from Tyrus, and they were beautiful and desirous coverings, thus making the King of Tyrus the 'covering cherub'. The great one from whom all wanted their coverings to come from.

"16 Syria was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of the wares of thy making: they occupied in thy fairs with emeralds, purple, and broidered work, and fine linen, and coral, and agate."

"20 Dedan was thy merchant in precious clothes for chariots."

"24 These were thy merchants in all sorts of things, in blue clothes, and broidered work, and in chests of rich apparel, bound with cords, and made of cedar, among thy merchandise."

Yes, the King of Tyrus was a 'handler' in the finer things in life, such as 'coverings'. This has nothing to do with the throne of God.

Second failure: In the opening portion of Ezekiel 28:14, the Lord God described this "king of Tyrus" with four elements, as follows:

1.  The Lord God designates him as a "cherub."
2.  The Lord God designates him as "the anointed" cherub.
3.  The Lord God designates him as the cherub "that covereth."
4.  The Lord God indicates that HE HIMSELF had set this individual to be so -- "the anointed cherub that covereth."

However, in Brother "Genevanpreacher's" explanation above, although he attempts an explanation for the designation of this individual as one "that covereth," he does not provide an explanation as to how this individual was a "cherub," as to how he was "the [not "a"} anointed" cherub, and as to God Himself being the One who had set this individual so.
 

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 8:12 PM, Genevanpreacher said:

7. What about this verse? -

    "15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

What does verse 14 of chapter 28 say? -

"and I have set thee so:"

That is when he was 'created', not before mankind, and because he was an angel, but because the Lord 'set him up' to be the King (even though he did not turn out to be the King he was supposed to be.)

Third failure: The Lord God's statement of Ezekiel 28:14, "And I have set thee so," grammatically and contextually indicates, not that the Lord God had "set him up" to be a king, but that the Lord God had set him so to be "the anointed cherub that covereth."  Until it can be Biblically demonstrated that the designation "cherub" can be equivalent to the designation "king," Brother "Genevanpreacher's" explanation lacks Biblical foundation; and Brother "Genevanpreacher" has NOT provided us any Biblical evidence for such an equivalency.

Furthermore, the Lord God's declaration of Ezekiel 28:15 indicates that this individual "was perfect" in his "ways" from his very creation, not simply in beauty as is indicated in Ezekiel 28:12; 27:3-4; 27:11.  In Ezekiel 28:15 the Lord God further indicates that this perfection in this individual's "ways" ended at the very moment that "iniquity was found" in him.  Thus the "perfection of ways" in this verse is placed in direct contrast to "iniquity of ways."  As such, we may understand that the "perfection of ways" in this verse is a spiritual and moral "perfection" (as the direct opposite of spiritual and moral "iniquity).  Yet since Adam's first disobedience against God, human individual's do not begin with spiritual and moral "perfection," but begin spiritually and morally already "under sin," and already "dead in trespasses and sins," and already under judgment "to condemnation."  Therefore, this description of this "anointed cherub" does not Biblically fit as a description for a human individual. 

Clearly, the Lord God's declaration in Ezekiel 28:2 indicates that the "prince of Tyrus" was a mere man; and there is nothing stated throughout Ezekiel 28:1-10 concerning his "perfection of ways."  However, in Ezekiel 28:14 the Lord God Himself clearly designates the "king of Tyrus" to be "the anointed cherub that coveth," whom the Lord God Himself had created and set to be so, indeed whom the Lord God had created to be "perfect in his ways."  As I have indicated in an earlier posting, the most foundational point of my position concerns the Biblical definition for the word "cherub."  Yet Brother "Genevanpreacher's" explanation above completely avoided the Biblical issue of that definition.  Indeed, he did not provide even a single statement of explanation concerning the Biblical meaning of that word, nor did he provide a single verse of Biblical evidence concerning such.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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49 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

First failure:  In his explanation above, Brother "Genevanpreacher" does not distinguish between the Lord God's pronouncement of judgment upon the city and land of Tyre as presented in Isaiah 23 & Ezekiel 26-27, from God's pronouncement of judgment upon "the prince of Tyrus" as presented in Ezekiel 28:1-10, from God's pronouncement of Judgment upon "the king of Tyrus" as presented in Ezekiel 28:11-19.
 

Second failure: In the opening portion of Ezekiel 28:14, the Lord God described this "king of Tyrus" with four elements, as follows:

1.  The Lord God designates him as a "cherub."
2.  The Lord God designates him as "the anointed" cherub.
3.  The Lord God designates him as the cherub "that covereth."
4.  The Lord God indicates that HE HIMSELF had set this individual to be so -- "the anointed cherub that covereth."

However, in Brother "Genevanpreacher's" explanation above, although he attempts an explanation for the designation of this individual as one "that covereth," he does not provide an explanation as to how this individual was a "cherub," as to how he was "the [not "a"} anointed" cherub, and as to God Himself being the One who had set this individual so.
 

Third failure: The Lord God's statement of Ezekiel 28:14, "And I have set thee so," grammatically and contextually indicates, not that the Lord God had "set him up" to be a king, but that the Lord God had set him so to be "the anointed cherub that covereth."  Until it can be Biblically demonstrated that the designation "cherub" can be equivalent to the designation "king," Brother "Genevanpreacher's" explanation lacks Biblical foundation; and Brother "Genevanpreacher" has NOT provided us any Biblical evidence for such an equivalency.

Furthermore, the Lord God's declaration of Ezekiel 28:15 indicates that this individual "was perfect" in his "ways" from his very creation, not simply in beauty as is indicated in Ezekiel 28:12; 27:3-4; 27:11.  In Ezekiel 28:15 the Lord God further indicates that this perfection in this individual's "ways" ended at the very moment that "iniquity was found" in him.  Thus the "perfection of ways" in this verse is placed in direct contrast to "iniquity of ways."  As such, we may understand that the "perfection of ways" in this verse is a spiritual and moral "perfection" (as the direct opposite of spiritual and moral "iniquity).  Yet since Adam's first disobedience against God, human individual's do not begin with spiritual and moral "perfection," but begin spiritually and morally already "under sin," and already "dead in trespasses and sins," and already under judgment "to condemnation."  Therefore, this description of this "anointed cherub" does not Biblically fit as a description for a human individual. 

Clearly, the Lord God's declaration in Ezekiel 28:2 indicates that the "prince of Tyrus" was a mere man; and there is nothing stated throughout Ezekiel 28:1-10 concerning his "perfection of ways."  However, in Ezekiel 28:4 the Lord God Himself clearly designates the "king of Tyrus" to be "the anointed cherub that coveth," whom the Lord God Himself had created and set to be so, indeed whom the Lord God had created to be "perfect in his ways."  As I have indicated in an earlier posting, the most foundational point of my position concerns the Biblical definition for the word "cherub."  Yet Brother "Genevanpreacher's" explanation above completely avoided the Biblical issue of that definition.  Indeed, he did not provide even a single statement of explanation concerning the Biblical meaning of that word, nor did he provide a single verse of Biblical evidence concerning such.

Nice word to throw any truth that I said to the ground there 'brother' - using the declaration of the word "failure" in multiple places. That'll shake the fruit from the limbs.

Yet my story is just as good as your story, and I used verses to show what I believed. I may not be as eloquent as you Scott, but I don't let others determine what the scriptures mean. Just because you think the cherub reference means an angelic being, which I am sure it does, but that's just the word translated into English, not the 'why' that it was used.

Translating a word from one language to another proves nothing, except in 'how' it is used, which in this instance, is a comparative, not a 'real' term. The only Cherub I am familiar with are the Cherub descriptions in Ezekiel, of all places, where they have multiple faces and wings. Did the devil have multiple faces and wings? Kinda hard to 'use' pipes and tabrets with multiple wings and faces, don't ya think? And these Cherubim couldn't and didn't DO much.

So are there OTHER cherubim out there in 'heavenland' somewhere too, Scott?

Doesn't sound like the Lucifer or Satan at all to me.

Thanks anyway.

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1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Nice word to throw any truth that I said to the ground there 'brother' - using the declaration of the word "failure" in multiple places. That'll shake the fruit from the limbs.

Yet my story is just as good as your story, and I used verses to show what I believed. I may not be as eloquent as you Scott, but I don't let others determine what the scriptures mean. Just because you think the cherub reference means an angelic being, which I am sure it does, but that's just the word translated into English, not the 'why' that it was used.

Translating a word from one language to another proves nothing, except in 'how' it is used, which in this instance, is a comparative, not a 'real' term. The only Cherub I am familiar with are the Cherub descriptions in Ezekiel, of all places, where they have multiple faces and wings. Did the devil have multiple faces and wings? Kinda hard to 'use' pipes and tabrets with multiple wings and faces, don't ya think? And these Cherubim couldn't and didn't DO much.

So are there OTHER cherubim out there in 'heavenland' somewhere too, Scott?

Doesn't sound like the Lucifer or Satan at all to me.

Thanks anyway.

Quoting this reply before he thinks better and changes it.

I have to say that this above quote passes doubt upon the Word of God.

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In re-reading Genevanpreachers posting on Ezekiel 28:1-24, (Posting #1, #2,#3 and #4), I am in complete agreement with Pastor Markle. Genevanpreachers argument is a failure.

 

Edited by Alan
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1 hour ago, Alan said:

In re-reading Genevanpreachers posting on Ezekiel 28:1-24, (Posting #1, #2,#3 and #4), I am in complete agreement with Pastor Markle. Genevanpreachers argument is a failure.

 

I expected nothing less from all three of you. 

And - it wasn't an argument.

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9 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

First failure:  In his explanation above, Brother "Genevanpreacher" does not distinguish between the Lord God's pronouncement of judgment upon the city and land of Tyre as presented in Isaiah 23 & Ezekiel 26-27, from God's pronouncement of judgment upon "the prince of Tyrus" as presented in Ezekiel 28:1-10, from God's pronouncement of Judgment upon "the king of Tyrus" as presented in Ezekiel 28:11-19.
 

Second failure: In the opening portion of Ezekiel 28:14, the Lord God described this "king of Tyrus" with four elements, as follows:

1.  The Lord God designates him as a "cherub."
2.  The Lord God designates him as "the anointed" cherub.
3.  The Lord God designates him as the cherub "that covereth."
4.  The Lord God indicates that HE HIMSELF had set this individual to be so -- "the anointed cherub that covereth."

However, in Brother "Genevanpreacher's" explanation above, although he attempts an explanation for the designation of this individual as one "that covereth," he does not provide an explanation as to how this individual was a "cherub," as to how he was "the [not "a"} anointed" cherub, and as to God Himself being the One who had set this individual so.
 

Third failure: The Lord God's statement of Ezekiel 28:14, "And I have set thee so," grammatically and contextually indicates, not that the Lord God had "set him up" to be a king, but that the Lord God had set him so to be "the anointed cherub that covereth."  Until it can be Biblically demonstrated that the designation "cherub" can be equivalent to the designation "king," Brother "Genevanpreacher's" explanation lacks Biblical foundation; and Brother "Genevanpreacher" has NOT provided us any Biblical evidence for such an equivalency.

Furthermore, the Lord God's declaration of Ezekiel 28:15 indicates that this individual "was perfect" in his "ways" from his very creation, not simply in beauty as is indicated in Ezekiel 28:12; 27:3-4; 27:11.  In Ezekiel 28:15 the Lord God further indicates that this perfection in this individual's "ways" ended at the very moment that "iniquity was found" in him.  Thus the "perfection of ways" in this verse is placed in direct contrast to "iniquity of ways."  As such, we may understand that the "perfection of ways" in this verse is a spiritual and moral "perfection" (as the direct opposite of spiritual and moral "iniquity).  Yet since Adam's first disobedience against God, human individual's do not begin with spiritual and moral "perfection," but begin spiritually and morally already "under sin," and already "dead in trespasses and sins," and already under judgment "to condemnation."  Therefore, this description of this "anointed cherub" does not Biblically fit as a description for a human individual. 

Clearly, the Lord God's declaration in Ezekiel 28:2 indicates that the "prince of Tyrus" was a mere man; and there is nothing stated throughout Ezekiel 28:1-10 concerning his "perfection of ways."  However, in Ezekiel 28:4 the Lord God Himself clearly designates the "king of Tyrus" to be "the anointed cherub that coveth," whom the Lord God Himself had created and set to be so, indeed whom the Lord God had created to be "perfect in his ways."  As I have indicated in an earlier posting, the most foundational point of my position concerns the Biblical definition for the word "cherub."  Yet Brother "Genevanpreacher's" explanation above completely avoided the Biblical issue of that definition.  Indeed, he did not provide even a single statement of explanation concerning the Biblical meaning of that word, nor did he provide a single verse of Biblical evidence concerning such.

So Bro. Scott - can YOU provide scripture proclaiming that "the anointed cherub that covereth" or "O covering cherub" means the Cherub that covereth the throne?

Can YOU provide scripture proclaiming that "the anointed cherub that covereth" or "O covering cherub" means a Cherub over the Ark of the Covenant?

AND if you do believe that - Can YOU provide the name of the OTHER Cherub over the Ark of the Covenant? (As there were Cherubim over the Ark of the Covenant.)

 

{And please don't say Michael the 'ark' angel, that would be just too funny!}

 

And I suppose, in this line of thinking that you espouse, you believe Pharoah was "the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers" also? (Ezekiel 29:2-5)

And I suppose, in this line of thinking that you espouse, you believe "the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches" also? (Ezekiel 31:2-9)

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52 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I expected nothing less from all three of you. 

And - it wasn't an argument.

Permit me to give you the, "The American Heritage Dictionary, Fifth Edition," of the word argument as I used it in my post.

1. A discussion of differing points of view: debate.

2. A quarrel; dispute.

3a. A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood.

  b. A persuasive reason: "The low rates are an argument for buying now."

My usage of the term, "argument," was approprite within the context of what I said, how I said it, and the above definition by, "The American Heritage Dictionary, Fifth Edition," and by any reasonable person reading my post.

Alan

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8 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Yet my story is just as good as your story, and I used verses to show what I believed.

Not really, since your "story" denies the Biblical definition for the word "cherub," whereas my "story" accepts the Biblical definition for the word "cherub."

8 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I may not be as eloquent as you Scott, but I don't let others determine what the scriptures mean.

Nor do I "let others determine what the Scriptures mean."  I have not quoted a single other individual, nor have I researched a single other individual for my earlier explanations of Ezekiel 28:11-19.  Rather, I have presented an explanation that follows the grammar and context of the passage.  Furthermore, I have provided Biblical evidence concerning the definition for the word "cherub" and for how an angelic "cherub" could legitimately be referenced as a "king."

8 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Just because you think the cherub reference means an angelic being, which I am sure it does, but that's just the word translated into English, not the 'why' that it was used.

Ah, here now is that denial for the Biblical definition and usage of the word "cherub."  Indeed, I do "think the cherub reference means an angelic being."  I do so because that is the meaning of the word in every other usage in God's Word (except Ezra 2:59 & Nehemiah 7:61, wherein the "Cherub" is the actual, given name of a human individual).  

8 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Translating a word from one language to another proves nothing, except in 'how' it is used, which in this instance, is a comparative, not a 'real' term.

 If you wish to engage in a consideration of the Hebrew word from which the English words "cherub" (singular) and "cherubims" (plural) is translated, I can do that also.

On the other hand, the word "cherub" most certainly is a "real" term.  Indeed, it is the very "real" term by which the Lord God Himself chose twice to describe the individual of Ezekiel 28:11-19.

8 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

The only Cherub I am familiar with are the Cherub descriptions in Ezekiel, of all places, where they have multiple faces and wings.

You might want to consider Genesis 3:24 and all of the reference concerning the images of "cherubims" (plural) in relation to the tabernacle and temple.

8 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

The only Cherub I am familiar with are the Cherub descriptions in Ezekiel, of all places, where they have multiple faces and wings. Did the devil have multiple faces and wings? Kinda hard to 'use' pipes and tabrets with multiple wings and faces, don't ya think? And these Cherubim couldn't and didn't DO much.

So are there OTHER cherubim out there in 'heavenland' somewhere too, Scott?

Actually concerning the descriptions in Ezekiel, that should be "cherubims," as a plural reference, indicating that there is indeed more than one "cherub" in "heavenland." 

9 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Did the devil have multiple faces and wings? Kinda hard to 'use' pipes and tabrets with multiple wings and faces, don't ya think? And these Cherubim couldn't and didn't DO much.

As far as the original appearance of the "anointed cherub that covereth," I know only as much as God's Word actually reveals.  Since God's Word appears to include wings in every other reference concerning "cherubims," I would conclude that "the anointed cherub that covereth" did indeed have wings.  Since God's Word does not indicate that "cherubims" had multiple faces in ever other reference concerning "cherubims," I choose not to speculate concerning "the anointed cherub that covereth" on this matter. 

As far as the usage of "pipes and tabrets with multiple wings and faces," if God's Word indicates that such is a fact, then I myself shall not in any way argue to the contrary.  Furthermore, I am quite certain that spiritual angelic beings are capable of things that would not be possible for us physical human beings.

9 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

So are there OTHER cherubim out there in 'heavenland' somewhere too, Scott?

Yes.  As I mentioned above, the word "cherubims" is plural, indicating more than one.

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