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GenevanPreacher, do you?


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Evil, as such, has three basic meanings in scripture:

Evil, as in wickedness; Evil, as in trouble, and evil as in disasters and such.

God did not create the first-it is evil in the form of which we tend to think: wickedness, sin, iniquity. This comes forth from the heart of man, as the nature of the human heart, since the fall, has been evil continually. 

The second and third, God does bring about, and the 'evil' is from the perspective of that person or people to whom it occurs. The tsunami in Indonesia was, to them, an evil act-it caused great pain and tribulation.

And then there was the evil, or troubling, disquieting, spirit the Lord sent upon Saul-clearly God didn't send forth a wicked spirit of sin to harass him, but one that troubled his soul.

Where it says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil", we are dealing with opposites: Light and darkness are opposites; peace and evil are opposites, if the evil spoken of is disastrous, troubling evil, not wickedness.  

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2 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

Where it says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil", we are dealing with opposites: Light and darkness are opposites; peace and evil are opposites, if the evil spoken of is disastrous, troubling evil, not wickedness.  

Exactly!

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So we can agree that the  basic meaning of the word "evil" is simply "bad" IE Stumping your toe, getting cancer, losing your car keys, getting hit by a train, Hitler, Hillary being elected President etc etc. "Sin" and "sinful people" are also  included as "bad stuff" but not all "bad stuff" is sin.

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5 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Who tempted Adam? Yes, the serpent deceived Eve. She didn't eat the fruit until the serpent had subtly enticed her and tempted her, but who tempted Adam? Was it God? Was it the serpent? Was it Eve? Who tempted Adam? No one tempted Adam; he made the choice to sin willingly and freely. The Bible makes it clear that Adam is the one responsible for mankind becoming sinners...not Eve...not Satan...Adam.

Who tempted the angel who became Satan? The Bible doesn't even remotely touch on it; however, knowing the God that I know, he made all of his creatures with freewill. He made everything VERY GOOD. There was nothing to tempt the angel; the angel made the choice to sin...willingly and freely. That's one of the things that I love most about God...he desires for others to love him, serve him, and worship him because...they want to. He doesn't make anyone do it; he allows them to make the choice. 

 

Excellent points NN,

No one tempted Lucifer or Adam, they sinned because they felt like it. IE: free will.

God made no sinners ever. God made no one sin ever and He makes no one repent ever.

Free will, check it out in your Bible, it is right there on every single page including the pages dealing with Esau and Pharaoh, you just have to study the context.

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9 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

So...I ask again...since you still haven't answered.

Do you believe that God created the devil as the evil, lying, murderer that we know him as? 

I refuse to be trapped by your wording here.

Because you will just slam me with phrases such as "he's a Calvinist because he believes . . .".

But I will emphatically state that I don't believe there ever was an angel named Lucifer, that was perfect, and was the highest angel in God's multitude of angelic hosts, that decided he was suddenly jealous of God and moved a rebellion of the angelic host to try and take over the throne of God.

IMO that is heresy against the word of the living God.

Period.

A lie can be told SO many times, that one day it appears to be the truth.

Reading the scriptures with the actual words on the page, and not paying heed to traditions, mostly perpetrated by scholars that don't even believe the scriptures are exciting enough with out adding tall tales to them, is sometimes impossible, yet always possible.

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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12 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Because you will just slam me with phrases such as "he's a Calvinist because he believes . . .".

Kind of like how you slammed me as being a "Lucifer" promoter?

I wasn't trying to trap you; that wasn't my intention whatsoever. I just wanted to know what you plainly believed based of a few somewhat vague statements that you made in another thread. My intention (regardless of your answer) was to drop the issue. I "assumed" that I knew the answer, but I was hoping that you would clarify it for me so that I could settle it in my mind as to what you believed.

However, based on your refusal to answer and your reason for refusing to answer, both seem to indicate that my assumption was correct. It appears that you've inadvertently given the answer without giving the answer.  

Very well. The issue is dropped.

Edited by No Nicolaitans
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13 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

If it's not too much trouble, can you tell me how you were able to quote posts from one thread into another?

Not a problem. At the bottom of each post there is the word "Quote" to the left is a + which if you hit for every original post that you want to carry over and a multi-quote button will appear at the bottom right of the screen. Then you go directly to the thread you want to post on and start a post, then hit the muti-quote button. The quotes should appear in your post box. I'm using the website on Google Chrome so that is how it works for me.

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4 hours ago, John Young said:

Not a problem. At the bottom of each post there is the word "Quote" to the left is a + which if you hit for every original post that you want to carry over and a multi-quote button will appear at the bottom right of the screen. Then you go directly to the thread you want to post on and start a post, then hit the muti-quote button. The quotes should appear in your post box. I'm using the website on Google Chrome so that is how it works for me.

Ahhh...thank you. I've used multi-quote many times before, but I didn't realize it could be used outside of the original containing thread. Thank you.

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On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 10:24 AM, No Nicolaitans said:

Do you believe that God created the devil as the evil, lying, murderer that we know him as? 

No sir. Absolutely NOT. GOD FORBID!

The "anointed cherub" of Ezekiel 28:11-19 was "perfect" in his ways from the very day that he was created, "till iniquity was found" in him.

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On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 10:24 PM, No Nicolaitans said:

Do you believe that God created the devil as the evil, lying, murderer that we know him as? 

It is actually not a difficult question to answer.

John 1

 1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 2  The same was in the beginning with God.

 3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

Genesis 1

31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God, through the Word, made everything that was made.

When God finished making everything that was made (see Gen 2:1,2) he said it was "very good".

Now, I personally don't know how God could proclaim that it was very good if in that creation of everything that was made, there was also made the greatest evil being in existence. 

I must therefore come to the conclusion that the answer to the question posed MUST BY BIBLICAL NECESSITY be "No".

I don't find that a difficult answer to make, partly because I believe that God is the thrice Holy God, and is perfect in His holiness. 

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42 minutes ago, DaveW said:

It is actually not a difficult question to answer.

Perhaps if I had worded my question differently, I would have gotten a straight answer from GenevanPreacher? However, I based my question upon three things...

  1. GenevanPreacher's own words in the other thread...that Satan was a liar from the beginning.
  2. The verse that GenevanPreacher was referring to...that Satan was a murderer from the beginning.
  3. The established fact that Satan is evil.

I never mentioned "Lucifer", and that seems to be his hangup. I noticed in his final statement, he prefaced it with "I don't believe there ever was an angel named Lucifer", and the rest of his statement hangs on that.

My question was never about Lucifer or the name Lucifer. Perhaps if I had merely asked, "Do you believe that God created Satan as Satan?"

...or...

"Do you believe that God created the Devil as the Devil?"

...or...

"Do you believe that God created Satan as the Devil?"

...or...

"Do you believe that God created the Devil as Satan?"

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On 7/20/2016 at 0:34 PM, No Nicolaitans said:

So, you're left with two choices...

  1. The angel chose to sin of his own freewill; thereby, becoming Satan.
  2. God created Satan (and the devils); thereby, God is also a sinner. If he created "sinners", their sin had to come from God...plain and simple. There's no way around it, and all of the "it's for God's glory" doesn't negate the fact that the sin in the sinner had to come from God. He's the creator; it all came FROM him, so HE put the sin in them.

God isn't a sinner.

So if the way you think is correct here, God is either a sinner or he isn't? It boils down to this?

I obviously do not believe God is a sinner.

God did create sinners, those with the choice to do good or evil. Mankind would always choose evil over good, and the Lord knew that. He knew everything that was gonna happen after he created.

Notice my lack of saying God created particular men to sin and particular men to not sin. Because that is NOT what I believe.

The phrase "and it was good" in Genesis did not mean everything was pure and kept holy as it was created. It was referring to it being formed the way he intended it to be formed. Snakes had venom, roses had thorns, etc., things which the Lord knew, in time would be used upon man because man would choose evil.

Why is that so hard to realize in a person who believes God didn't create 'evil' I don't know. Your choices assume too much.

If God's choice in making darkness, or actually seperating light and darkness, is so hard to believe, why believe anything else? Did you ever think that the devils that were created by God, were just a residue that God created? He knowing full well that mankind would use darkness as an excuse to get away with sin. God created creatures AND man knowing they would sin or create an atmosphere for sin or influence toward sin. Yet he still made them didn't he.

Knowing before creation that he would take on flesh himself and make reconciliation for sin, he still created man. Amazing isn't it?

No God didn't create sin or sinners - the way you make me sound like I believe - but he did create sinners knowing he would justify those that would believe in him with all their heart. 

Making verses say something they were never intended to say, and using those verses to prove a doctrine, especially on the devil, a creature that needs, and should get, no honoring, is just wild.

As for the verse about the 'covering cherub'...once again, traditional teaching using verses talking about someone else and applying it to a someone else, in particular Satan.

Honoring a false god is wrong brethren. The devils all should be so much more dishonored than this.

A creature that can be bossed around and made to flee by simply resisting is not a creature to magnify in the scriptures nor apply 'prophecies' concerning his origin and fall.

If you have read this whole post...thanks for that.

May you who care about this subject be willing to view the devils all with less importance.

4 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Perhaps if I had worded my question differently, I would have gotten a straight answer from GenevanPreacher? However, I based my question upon three things...

  1. GenevanPreacher's own words in the other thread...that Satan was a liar from the beginning.
  2. The verse that GenevanPreacher was referring to...that Satan was a murderer from the beginning.
  3. The established fact that Satan is evil.

I never mentioned "Lucifer", and that seems to be his hangup. I noticed in his final statement, he prefaced it with "I don't believe there ever was an angel named Lucifer", and the rest of his statement hangs on that.

My question was never about Lucifer or the name Lucifer. Perhaps if I had merely asked, "Do you believe that God created Satan as Satan?"

...or...

"Do you believe that God created the Devil as the Devil?"

...or...

"Do you believe that God created Satan as the Devil?"

...or...

"Do you believe that God created the Devil as Satan?"

Actually you are correct, I was mistaken on the wording, but there is also another verse - 1 John 3:8.

Thanks.

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38 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

As for the verse about the 'covering cherub'...once again, traditional teaching using verses talking about someone else and applying it to a someone else, in particular Satan.

Since I am the one who inserted the passage concerning the "anointed cherub that covereth" into the discussion, I will take up this one comment.  Doctrine by "tradition" means nothing whatsoever to me.  Doctrine by precise grammar and context is that which I pursue (as, I believe, you are aware by now).  Since this passage clearly designates the individual about which Ezekiel 28:11-19 speaks as a "cherub," and since God's Word only uses the designation of "cherub" for a particular class of angels, I shall view this individual as an angel upon the ground of grammar and context.  If you wish to dispute the matter through the study of grammar and context, I am willing to engage with you therein.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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52 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

God did create sinners

No he didn't. He created man with freewill. Obey or disobey. They weren't sinners until they sinned.

54 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Snakes had venom, roses had thorns, etc.,

Whether snakes had venom before man's fall or not, I don't know, but the Bible strongly indicates that this happened AFTER man sinned...not before. God didn't create them that way. Adam's sin affected all of creation.

57 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Why is that so hard to realize in a person who believes God didn't create 'evil' I don't know.

?

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

If God's choice in making darkness, or actually seperating light and darkness, is so hard to believe, why believe anything else?

?

God divided the darkness from the light for a particular purpose. Day time serves a particular purpose; night time serves a particular purpose. Like everything though, man uses God's creation and gifts for his own selfish needs. God certainly didn't create the darkness to give sinners a better opportunity to sin.

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Did you ever think that the devils that were created by God, were just a residue that God created?

?

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Knowing before creation that he would take on flesh himself and make reconciliation for sin, he still created man. Amazing isn't it?

Yes it is! AMEN! And I truly hope the Lord will reveal his reason one day in eternity. Too many people question this and try to formulate their own hypothesis as to why God created man knowing he would sin. All that I know is that the Bible says that God created man for his glory...and no, I'm not a Calvinist. :nuts:

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

No God didn't create sin or sinners - the way you make me sound like I believe - but he did create sinners knowing he would justify those that would believe in him with all their heart. 

I'm stumped. You say God didn't create sinners, then you say he did create sinners. I understand your saying "not the way I make you sound like you believe", but I'm still stumped. Are you saying that since God knew man would sin (and Satan and the devils) <--- ??? ; technically, he created sinners? 

No, God did not create sinners. He created beings with a free will who could choose to obey or disobey. He created man and angels without sin, yet he knew they would sin; therefore, he created them without sin. They were not sinners UNTIL they sinned.

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

a creature that needs, and should get, no honoring, is just wild.

No one here that I'm aware of is honoring Satan. Aren't there verses about Judas Iscariot? Do we honor him when we talk about him. Aren't there MULTITUDES of verses about people who were opposed to God? Do we honor them simply by talking about them? Aren't there plain, flat-out obvious verses that talk about Satan and the devils. Do we honor them when we discuss those verses? Did it dishonor the Holy Spirit when he inspired men to write about them? Are you saying that to talk about Satan at all is to give him honor?

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

A creature that can be bossed around and made to flee by simply resisting

No one can boss him around simply by resisting. The Bible says that we must first submit ourselves unto God...THEN...resist the devil. 

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

As for the verse about the 'covering cherub'...once again, traditional teaching using verses talking about someone else and applying it to a someone else, in particular Satan.

Do you honestly think the human king of Tyrus was in Eden, that he was a cherub, that his covering was all of those precious stones, that he was PERFECT until iniquity was found in him, etc.? No one got into Eden after Adam and Eve were banished. God had angels guard it. Then the flood came, and who knows if the angels were needed after that...I don't think they were.

Now, unlike the Lucifer reference, I do believe that this is a clear reference to Satan. He was the king of Tyrus...good grief...the Bible plainly states that he's the god of this world. It's little wonder he would rule a city. I would assume that the human king was either possessed, or Satan had such influence on him that his choices were Satan's choices.

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

If you have read this whole post...thanks for that.

I did.

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

May you who care about this subject be willing to view the devils all with less importance.

I certainly do care about the subject. The Lord put it in his word; it's important to God, and he wanted us to know about it. If the devils aren't that important and we shouldn't care about the subject, why are there accounts about them in God's word, why are we told to wear the whole armour of God, why did he tell us that our fight isn't with flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.and why did God tell us that Satan walks about seeking whom he may devour.

Seems like God cares about the subject and views it with importance.

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Actually you are correct, I was mistaken on the wording, but there is also another verse - 1 John 3:8.

Absolutely, the devil did sin from the beginning...his beginning as the devil...not before he became the devil.

1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Thanks.

Thank you for your response; I do appreciate it. I can see that you're sure of what you believe, and as I said, I will drop this. I only responded again, because you responded and took the time to do so.

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4 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Making verses say something they were never intended to say, and using those verses to prove a doctrine, especially on the devil, a creature that needs, and should get, no honoring, is just wild.

As for the verse about the 'covering cherub'...once again, traditional teaching using verses talking about someone else and applying it to a someone else, in particular Satan.

Honoring a false god is wrong brethren. The devils all should be so much more dishonored than this.

First of all, I do NOT NOT NOT see ANYONE here "honoring" a false god NOR devils. To suggest that to discuss this is somehow dishonoring God would be contrary to scripture: 2 Tim. 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".  We don't throw out ANY scripture, nor refuse to discuss ANY part of scripture. Nor is it "honoring" the devil by discussing his freewill choice to sin. 

I don't see anyone here "making verses say something they were never intended to say" in regard to lucifer nor to the anointed cherub that covereth. It's OBVIOUS that God's word is not talking about a mere man in either of these sections of scripture, and let's look at WHY that is:

Isaiah 14:1-11 We can see an EXAMPLE given of a wicked king of Babylon.

Starting at verse 12, we can see a change in subject character.

12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
13 "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"
14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
15 "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Cetainly you don't entertain the thought that a mere MAN (a king of Babylon) had "fallen from heaven"??? (v.12)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A similar concept is put forth in Ezekiel 28:1-12. We see an EXAMPLE given of the prince of Tyre.

And again,  we see a change in subject character starting in verse 13

13 "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."
14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."
15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
16 "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire."
17 "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

Again, certainly you don't entertain the thought that a mere MAN (a prince of Tyre) was in "Eden the garden of God"???
And certainly you don't ALSO entertain the thought that a mere MAN (a prince of Tyre) was  an "anointed cherub"???

I might even go so far as to say that both the king of Babylon AND the prince of Tyre were LED of the devil...
HOWEVER, I believe they made a CHOICE (by their God-given FREE WILL) to CHOOSE whom they would serve and to whom they would be LED by!
Just as God gave all of Israel (in Shechem) a FREE WILL CHOICE to determine for themselves whom they would serve (Josh. 24:15)

And Yes, God also created the devil with a FREE WILL choice. We can see what the devil chose... PRIDE and ARROGANCE with the delusion that he could exalt himself above his maker (Isaiah 14:12-15)
Again, we see God created the devil with a FREE WILL choice. We can see the devil chose VANITY and PRIDE again (Ezekiel 28:13-17)
We see that same PRIDE, VANITY, and ARROGANCE of the devil when he had the audacity to attempt to tempt Jesus Himself (Matt. 4:1-10)

Pride, vanity, and arrogance are ALL WILLFUL sins.
A person has to decide of their own FREE WILL to be prideful, vain, or arrogant.
The devil wasn't created as prideful, arrogant, or vain... he was created "perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."
We can see it is a FREE WILL CHOICE, when we study God's word regarding the CHOICE to be humble before the Lord:
Humble FREE WILL choices: (Jer. 13:18, James 4:10, 1 Pet.5:5-6, Exodus 10:3, 2 Kings 21:29, 2 Kings 22:19 et al)

Often it may be these 3 sins are the least easy for one person to see in themselves, but we ALL make these choices on a daily basis... do we live to serve God or to serve ourselves? That is a freewill choice as well.
Do we place our own (sinful and selfish) desires ABOVE serving God? Or do we HUMBLE ourselves (by our own free wil choice) before the Lord?
Pride, arrogance, and vanity are SINS and ARE all free will choices. 
The devil had the FREE WILL choice to HUMBLE himself before the Lord (as we ALL have that same free will choice).
Apparently the devil is so full of himself with the sins of pride, arrogance, and vanity that he actually has deluded himself into thinking he has a chance to usurp God Himself?!?!?! Which SHOULD be a HUGE warning to all. 

On 7/20/2016 at 4:55 AM, Genevanpreacher said:

where did ol' Lucifer get the idea to sin?


Did someone have to tempt the devil in order for him to be prideful, arrogant, and vain? I don't believe so!
I believe he chose of his own FREE WILL not to humble himself before the Lord. The devil CHOSE of his own free will to commit the sins of pride, arrogance, and vanity.


 

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