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No Nicolaitans

GenevanPreacher, do you?

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This is so sad.

You don't even see what you're saying.

You will state that God created Lucifer, without sin. Boldly.

Yet if that were true and sin started, not with Adam mind you, but Eve, then where did ol' Lucifer get the idea to sin?

If everything were SO perfect...WHO tempted this Angel?

Go ahead, pull out another 'traditional excuse'...

And when you comment, try and tell everybody just how he got 1/3 of all the others to follow him.

Nobody had the least idea of rebellion in their perfect creation.

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On 7/19/2016 at 1:54 AM, Genevanpreacher said:

This is exactly why the gap theory is trash.

No gap. No Lucifer story. No false trash that there was a 'honest' and 'pure' creature who was a satan after he chose to become 'like God'.

I know all the references to the Lucifer mumbo jumbo, and find it such a funny thing that men of God will support such a thing by taking verses out of context and spread it far and wide by 'honoring' Satan so much that they will 'stick' him in a prophecy.

And when you take God's word as it reads in the text, you will find that Lucifer was used as an example of how far Nebuchadnezzar had lifted himself up - as a man - not as the devil. The rest of the verses in Isaiah that are around that ONE reference to something known as Lucifer (Venus), [which is what men called the star that rises up before the Sun, back in the 1500's and 1600's], you see a fallen MAN. Never a fallen angel.

The gap theory has quite the hold here on OB doesn't it? To believe an angel called Lucifer decided to go contrary to it's perfect creation is a myth. 

Reference to Jesus saying he saw Satan fall from heaven? Come on guys. He was not referring to Lucifer at all. Read the context. Don't give such a made up story such credit. Nor the devil such credit. He doesn't require the same level of prophetic utterence that our Lord gets in the OT scriptures. Nor does he deserve it.

 

22 hours ago, John Young said:

These passages do not need a gap in order to refer to Satan and human kings at the same time. The fall of the devil was not in some mystical gap period but is synonymous with the judgement of the serpent in Genesis 3:14. Satan was not cursed until after he tempted Eve in the garden. Everything by God was still very good until the moment Satan put it upon himself to question God's stated commands and go against his authorities.

The Isaiah passage was a proverb. It took things that were well known about the spiritual ruler of evil and applied them to his puppet the human king. Isaiah and others are often told and given burdens to speak in parables and proverbs in order to show to those who cared the hidden spiritual influence controlling the physical world. We also see that the Apostle John refers to Babylon  as being is the human symbol of Satan's control on earth and much of the things he refers to in Revelation are alluding back to the OT Prophets. Putting aside the argument on the word "Lucifer," it is clear that God is alluding to the devil and applying it to the Babylonian King.

God tells Palestina not to rejoice after the power of the human Babylonian king is taken away because the nation will once again come against them and we see that happening in Revelation where it is clear Satan is the spiritual ruler of that Kingdom; guiding them through out the ages.

Isaiah 14:4 that thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isaiah 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

Revelation 12:9-10 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Revelation 20:2-3 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Posted this over here from the gap thread....

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Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

Deuteronomy 30: 11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Here's another... Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, WHO. looses Satan so he can deceive the nations? God. That will in effect be "setting evil before" those people. Who creates evil? Isaiah 45:7 says God does. He made the hurricanes, tornados, lightning, earthquakes, internal parasites, thorns, poisonous snakes, mosquitos, lions, bears, wolves and tiger sharks? Same person; God. When a pack of wolves begins feeding on a caribou while it's still alive, that is a very bad thing for the caribou. "Evil" simply means "bad". It DOES NOT mean "sin". "Sin" is indeed a bad thing yes, but not all "bad" is sin. Comprende? God made "Lucifer" knowing full well that he would do very bad things. But it was Lucifer who CHOSE the bad. God even put the Serpent, Satan etc in the garden of Eden knowing he would deceive Eve. He also put that tree there with the intention of giving man a CHOICE to CHOOSE good or evil. Why would the tree even be CALLED "tree of knowledge of good and evil" if "evil" was not a reality at the time? Remember,"evil" simply means "bad". Now go back and read Deuteronomy 30:15 God sets before us good and EVIL. It is when WE CHOOSE to worship the bad, that it becomes sin.

Edited by heartstrings

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6 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

This is so sad.

You don't even see what you're saying.

Though you didn't quote me, I will assume that you're responding to me?

 

6 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

You will state that God created Lucifer, without sin. Boldly.

I'm sorry, but you'll have to show me where I said that. To my knowledge, I've not said it in this thread, nor did I say it in the Gap Theory GARBAGE thread.

I haven't said it, because I don't know if "Lucifer" is a reference to Satan or not. The context of Isaiah 14 is about the king of Babylon and what he did. I know that any human with power and a god-complex could say (and has said) such things as the sayings attributed to Lucifer in the passage; therefore, to attribute those sayings to only the king of Babylon is acceptable to me. Plenty of men who were drunk with power have made "god statements" before. The "acts" of Lucifer could also be attributed to the king of Babylon...he did make nations tremble, he did destroy cities, etc...

HOWEVER, I don't discount that it could also refer to Satan. As John Young pointed out...the Lord himself called it a proverb. Satan is the god of this world; therefore, he is the one moving behind the scenes of evil rulers. As the god of this world, he also is responsible for the "acts" attributed to Lucifer. To me, the main thing that gives the most credence to Lucifer as being Satan is the fact that "someone" fell from heaven. I don't think the king of Babylon did that, and your reference to Lucifer being Venus doesn't make sense...last I knew, Venus was still up there.

So...since I'm not sure that Lucifer refers to Satan (I neither proclaim it as such; nor do I discount it), I've made no such statement...and I certainly haven't stated it boldly.

 

6 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Yet if that were true and sin started, not with Adam mind you, but Eve, then where did ol' Lucifer get the idea to sin?

If everything were SO perfect...WHO tempted this Angel?

Who tempted Adam? Yes, the serpent deceived Eve. She didn't eat the fruit until the serpent had subtly enticed her and tempted her, but who tempted Adam? Was it God? Was it the serpent? Was it Eve? Who tempted Adam? No one tempted Adam; he made the choice to sin willingly and freely. The Bible makes it clear that Adam is the one responsible for mankind becoming sinners...not Eve...not Satan...Adam.

Now, tell me...how do angels' minds work? What is their "daily" life like? How do they make the choices they make? What are their thought processes? You don't really know do you? I don't either. We have very little information about angels. We know their purposes, and we've been made privy to some of their acts; however, we know very little about their "personal lives" inasmuch as though they have any type of personal life apart from the purpose they serve. Do they get "free time"? Do they get "vacations"? Do they get "time-and-a-half" for working overtime? 

You're attributing human ideas and assumptions onto angels...and they're not human. They're on a whole different level.

Who tempted the angel who became Satan? The Bible doesn't even remotely touch on it; however, knowing the God that I know, he made all of his creatures with freewill. He made everything VERY GOOD. There was nothing to tempt the angel; the angel made the choice to sin...willingly and freely. That's one of the things that I love most about God...he desires for others to love him, serve him, and worship him because...they want to. He doesn't make anyone do it; he allows them to make the choice. 

So, you're left with two choices...

  1. The angel chose to sin of his own freewill; thereby, becoming Satan.
  2. God created Satan (and the devils); thereby, God is also a sinner. If he created "sinners", their sin had to come from God...plain and simple. There's no way around it, and all of the "it's for God's glory" doesn't negate the fact that the sin in the sinner had to come from God. He's the creator; it all came FROM him, so HE put the sin in them.

God isn't a sinner.

 

7 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Go ahead, pull out another 'traditional excuse'...

Did my "excuse" qualify?

 

7 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

And when you comment, try and tell everybody just how he got 1/3 of all the others to follow him.

I know what you're referring to from Revelation 12, but like Isaiah 14, this is also an area that I'm not sure about...so you'll get no further comment from me on it.

 

7 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Nobody had the least idea of rebellion in their perfect creation.

I hate to say this, and I abhor when I hear others throw this out...but Lord forgive me...I'm going to say it...

Show me that in the Bible.

After creation, everything was very good according to God...but it didn't stay that way. That's what we know.

So, we either accept your view...that God created Satan and the devils; thereby, God is also a sinner himself. Or, we accept that the angel chose to sin of his own freewill and became Satan.

So...I ask again...since you still haven't answered.

Do you believe that God created the devil as the evil, lying, murderer that we know him as? 

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33 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Deuteronomy 30: 11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Here's another... Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, WHO. looses Satan so he can deceive the nations? God. That will in effect be "setting evil before" those people. Who made the hurricanes, tornados, lightning, earthquakes, internal parasites, land predators and sharks? Same person; God. When a pack of wolves begins feeding on a caribou while it's still alive, that is a very bad thing for the caribou. "Evil" simply means "bad stuff". It DOES NOT mean "sin". "Sin" is indeed a bad thing yes, but not all "bad" is sin. Comprende? God made "Lucifer" knowing full well that Lucifer would do very bad things. But it was Lucifer who CHOSE the bad. God even put the Serpent, Satan etc in the garden of Eden knowing he would deceive Eve. He also put that tree there with the intention of giving man a CHOICE to CHOOSE good or evil. Why would the tree even be CALLED "tree of knowledge of good and evil" if "evil" was not a reality at the time? Remember,"evil" simply means "bad stuff". Now go back and read Deuteronomy 30:15 God sets before us good and EVIL. It is when WE CHOOSE to worship the bad, that it becomes sin.

...and then there's my favorite that people like to twist without actually reading what it's actually saying...

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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3 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

...and then there's my favorite that people like to twist without actually reading what it's actually saying...

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Yes, God made a lot of "bad stuff". But I don't believe He was the creator/author of sin.

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Evil, as such, has three basic meanings in scripture:

Evil, as in wickedness; Evil, as in trouble, and evil as in disasters and such.

God did not create the first-it is evil in the form of which we tend to think: wickedness, sin, iniquity. This comes forth from the heart of man, as the nature of the human heart, since the fall, has been evil continually. 

The second and third, God does bring about, and the 'evil' is from the perspective of that person or people to whom it occurs. The tsunami in Indonesia was, to them, an evil act-it caused great pain and tribulation.

And then there was the evil, or troubling, disquieting, spirit the Lord sent upon Saul-clearly God didn't send forth a wicked spirit of sin to harass him, but one that troubled his soul.

Where it says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil", we are dealing with opposites: Light and darkness are opposites; peace and evil are opposites, if the evil spoken of is disastrous, troubling evil, not wickedness.  

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2 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

Where it says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil", we are dealing with opposites: Light and darkness are opposites; peace and evil are opposites, if the evil spoken of is disastrous, troubling evil, not wickedness.  

Exactly!

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So we can agree that the  basic meaning of the word "evil" is simply "bad" IE Stumping your toe, getting cancer, losing your car keys, getting hit by a train, Hitler, Hillary being elected President etc etc. "Sin" and "sinful people" are also  included as "bad stuff" but not all "bad stuff" is sin.

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5 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Who tempted Adam? Yes, the serpent deceived Eve. She didn't eat the fruit until the serpent had subtly enticed her and tempted her, but who tempted Adam? Was it God? Was it the serpent? Was it Eve? Who tempted Adam? No one tempted Adam; he made the choice to sin willingly and freely. The Bible makes it clear that Adam is the one responsible for mankind becoming sinners...not Eve...not Satan...Adam.

Who tempted the angel who became Satan? The Bible doesn't even remotely touch on it; however, knowing the God that I know, he made all of his creatures with freewill. He made everything VERY GOOD. There was nothing to tempt the angel; the angel made the choice to sin...willingly and freely. That's one of the things that I love most about God...he desires for others to love him, serve him, and worship him because...they want to. He doesn't make anyone do it; he allows them to make the choice. 

 

Excellent points NN,

No one tempted Lucifer or Adam, they sinned because they felt like it. IE: free will.

God made no sinners ever. God made no one sin ever and He makes no one repent ever.

Free will, check it out in your Bible, it is right there on every single page including the pages dealing with Esau and Pharaoh, you just have to study the context.

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9 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

So...I ask again...since you still haven't answered.

Do you believe that God created the devil as the evil, lying, murderer that we know him as? 

I refuse to be trapped by your wording here.

Because you will just slam me with phrases such as "he's a Calvinist because he believes . . .".

But I will emphatically state that I don't believe there ever was an angel named Lucifer, that was perfect, and was the highest angel in God's multitude of angelic hosts, that decided he was suddenly jealous of God and moved a rebellion of the angelic host to try and take over the throne of God.

IMO that is heresy against the word of the living God.

Period.

A lie can be told SO many times, that one day it appears to be the truth.

Reading the scriptures with the actual words on the page, and not paying heed to traditions, mostly perpetrated by scholars that don't even believe the scriptures are exciting enough with out adding tall tales to them, is sometimes impossible, yet always possible.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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12 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Because you will just slam me with phrases such as "he's a Calvinist because he believes . . .".

Kind of like how you slammed me as being a "Lucifer" promoter?

I wasn't trying to trap you; that wasn't my intention whatsoever. I just wanted to know what you plainly believed based of a few somewhat vague statements that you made in another thread. My intention (regardless of your answer) was to drop the issue. I "assumed" that I knew the answer, but I was hoping that you would clarify it for me so that I could settle it in my mind as to what you believed.

However, based on your refusal to answer and your reason for refusing to answer, both seem to indicate that my assumption was correct. It appears that you've inadvertently given the answer without giving the answer.  

Very well. The issue is dropped.

Edited by No Nicolaitans
spelling

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13 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

If it's not too much trouble, can you tell me how you were able to quote posts from one thread into another?

Not a problem. At the bottom of each post there is the word "Quote" to the left is a + which if you hit for every original post that you want to carry over and a multi-quote button will appear at the bottom right of the screen. Then you go directly to the thread you want to post on and start a post, then hit the muti-quote button. The quotes should appear in your post box. I'm using the website on Google Chrome so that is how it works for me.

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4 hours ago, John Young said:

Not a problem. At the bottom of each post there is the word "Quote" to the left is a + which if you hit for every original post that you want to carry over and a multi-quote button will appear at the bottom right of the screen. Then you go directly to the thread you want to post on and start a post, then hit the muti-quote button. The quotes should appear in your post box. I'm using the website on Google Chrome so that is how it works for me.

Ahhh...thank you. I've used multi-quote many times before, but I didn't realize it could be used outside of the original containing thread. Thank you.

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On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 10:24 AM, No Nicolaitans said:

Do you believe that God created the devil as the evil, lying, murderer that we know him as? 

No sir. Absolutely NOT. GOD FORBID!

The "anointed cherub" of Ezekiel 28:11-19 was "perfect" in his ways from the very day that he was created, "till iniquity was found" in him.

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On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 10:24 PM, No Nicolaitans said:

Do you believe that God created the devil as the evil, lying, murderer that we know him as? 

It is actually not a difficult question to answer.

John 1

 1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 2  The same was in the beginning with God.

 3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

Genesis 1

31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God, through the Word, made everything that was made.

When God finished making everything that was made (see Gen 2:1,2) he said it was "very good".

Now, I personally don't know how God could proclaim that it was very good if in that creation of everything that was made, there was also made the greatest evil being in existence. 

I must therefore come to the conclusion that the answer to the question posed MUST BY BIBLICAL NECESSITY be "No".

I don't find that a difficult answer to make, partly because I believe that God is the thrice Holy God, and is perfect in His holiness. 

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