Guidance needed

[Wmccarthy99]

I'd like to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread and just wanted to let you know it has been a huge encouragement to me!

3 hours ago, wretched said:

It is saying that it is impossible for one born again to fall away from their belief in Christ else if they had truly fallen away how could they be saved again? They would have to crucify Christ again.

That's the pivotal point of the verse probably, what does it mean to truly fall away? I still don't totally understand it, but there is a reassurance in my heart that this is not what has happened to me after studying His word and reading everyone's comments. These verses come to mind.

"(For our weapons of warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;)

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;" 2 Cor 10:4,5

Edited July 8, 2016 by Wmccarthy99

[*Light*]

You used the words "to truly fall away", which the bible never refers to a falling away with regards to "losing" ones salvation. Hebrews 6:4-6 uses the Greek word "apostasia", and this only occurs once in the New Testament. Falling away is used elsewhere (not apostasia) in scripture and refers to a defection of the Christian faith of belief system. Nothing suggests that the one who has fallen away possessed "saving faith". Many professing Christians attend their local church for years and ultimately decide to abandon their beliefs in Christianity. This merely shows that they had intellectual assent of the Christian belief and not saving faith.

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. (Matthew 13:20-21)

The one who "falls away" does no have saving faith, or what the passage above refers to as having "no root".

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27,28)

Jesus describes the "characteristics" of His sheep. They "hear His voice", and they "follow Him". This indicates that if you truly belong to Jesus, you cannot lose your salvation or apostasize because you, as His sheep, both hear His voice AND follow Him. Hope this helps!

God Bless!

[wretched]

56 minutes ago, (Omega) said:

You used the words "to truly fall away", which the bible never refers to a falling away with regards to "losing" ones salvation. Hebrews 6:4-6 uses the Greek word "apostasia", and this only occurs once in the New Testament. Falling away is used elsewhere (not apostasia) in scripture and refers to a defection of the Christian faith of belief system. Nothing suggests that the one who has fallen away possessed "saving faith". Many professing Christians attend their local church for years and ultimately decide to abandon their beliefs in Christianity. This merely shows that they had intellectual assent of the Christian belief and not saving faith.

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. (Matthew 13:20-21)

The one who "falls away" does no have saving faith, or what the passage above refers to as having "no root".

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27,28)

Jesus describes the "characteristics" of His sheep. They "hear His voice", and they "follow Him". This indicates that if you truly belong to Jesus, you cannot lose your salvation or apostasize because you, as His sheep, both hear His voice AND follow Him. Hope this helps!

God Bless!

Should I assume you are attempting to quote me? Please reread my post carefully friend, you are simply paraphrasing me with this post.

thanks

 

[Wmccarthy99]

4 hours ago, (Omega) said:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27,28)

Jesus describes the "characteristics" of His sheep. They "hear His voice", and they "follow Him". This indicates that if you truly belong to Jesus, you cannot lose your salvation or apostasize because you, as His sheep, both hear His voice AND follow Him. Hope this helps!

God Bless!

A great scripture that really shows the truth about eternal security. "they follow me". I actually just went and saw my pastor. we didn't get to talk long but this issue was raised up when he basically said the Jesus' salvation for and individual is final... as long as we keep walking with him! That sounds wrong to me. I have been do a fair amount of research and praying about eternal security recently because I wasn't quite sure where I stood on it. What the Lord has been teaching me through my reading is that temptations and trials prove us to show whether or not we are true children of the King. I praise the Lord that you brought that verse up and wonder at why it never spoke to me that way before.

I am beginning to think this is where I have to take my stand in why I have to leave this church. I love the pastor very much, and have learned a lot from him. But at this church we play CCM and he reads from the NKJV. Many members of the church use the NIV and other modern versions. There's only a couple of us that use the KJV . I have been with them for about 9 months, so I have really bonded with the pastor and most of the members, (small church, only about 30-50 regularly attend) so that made it hard for me to split with them in a peaceable and honest way. It feels wrong to just leave, and though I do have problems with the modern versions and the music, I feel uncomfortable telling everyone that's why I'm leaving. But a strong disagreement on a fundamental doctrinal issue is a different story!

[*Light*]

Your Pastor will probably tell you that you, as Jesus' sheep, can willfully jump out of His hand; or you can, by your own volition and free will, choose to leave the shepherd. But that goes against what that very passage teaches. The born again person has a "new nature", and are a "new creation" or "creature" in Christ. This does not negate free will. I'm sure you've heard the fable about the scorpion and the frog. This is not from the bible but the point proves true about the nature of a creature.

"A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, they would both drown. Considering this, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so."

The believer may struggle with sin at times, and at times backslide; but he/she will eventually overcome their sins through the power of the Holy Spirit. Sin will not have dominion over the Christian's life. It's never, "forget about repentance, you win sin." We are more than Conquerors through Christ, who loves you dearly. Keep fighting the good fight of faith brother. I know that you will do well.

God Bless,

Daniel

[Wmccarthy99]

1 hour ago, (Omega) said:

 

Your Pastor will probably tell you that you, as Jesus' sheep, can willfully jump out of His hand; or you can, by your own volition and free will, choose to leave the shepherd.

 

This is almost exactly what I've heard him say. I've heard a number of others in the church say it as well. 

[Jim_Alaska]

It doesn't matter how many people say it, it is wrong. I would not call them Independent Baptists if they believe they can lose their salvation.

This is what God says on this subject:

 Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 
 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 
 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 
 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

[Wmccarthy99]

It's definitely not an Independent Baptist church. My prayer now is that the Lord to help me find a New Testament church that I can grow with and learn from. And I thank the Lord for all the help you guys on this site have given me with all these questions. I myself was even on the fence about my stance on eternal security, but through His word He has settled my heart on this blessed truth.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Wmccarthy99

[swathdiver]

On 7/9/2016 at 1:27 AM, Wmccarthy99 said:

. I myself was even on the fence about my stance on eternal security, but through His word He has settled my heart on this blessed truth.

Amen!

[ldonjohn]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 7:43 PM, Wmccarthy99 said:

This is almost exactly what I've heard him say. I've heard a number of others in the church say it as well. 

Wmccarthy, the best way I know to explain eternal security is that when a person is born-again he/she becomes a child of God. A child can turn against his/her parents, a child can decide he/she does not want to be the child of his/her parents, a child can die, etc. but that child can never be un-born, and a child of God cannot be un-born-again.

Don

[Wmccarthy99]

Thanks Don!

BTW Welcome to the forum!

[S.T.Ranger]

On 7/5/2016 at 10:54 PM, Wmccarthy99 said:

Thanks for responding 360 watt, and this gives me a little encouragement to hear that others go through this as well. I definately acknowledged my sin, actually felt sorrowful over it and believed that Jesus Christ could still save me, that's about as far as it went. I only finally made a confession to my mom that I believed in Him probably months later. I believed for a while, but went back to my old ways pretty much immediately

Recently I've realized I never really understood how one becomes saved. I knew you had to place your faith in Christ, but because of ignorance and false teachings I've thought that there was always something added to it like "commit your life to Christ" or "surrender everything to Him". 

There's a couple reasons I believe that Hebrews 6:4-8 is talking about non believers

⁴ For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

⁵ And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

⁶ If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

⁷ For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

⁸ But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

The main reason being verse 8. I don't believe anyone who has been born again will be rejected, no matter how bad they sin. Also, the quick lesson of Esau in Hebrews 12:17

17: For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

 

As to being partakers of the Holy Spirit, isn't King Saul an example of this? He prophesied, and later God took away His Spirit and sent him a spirit of distress. Just my two cents though.

I have heard that Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about someone who falls away in unbelief so badly that they never even want to come back, but I don't find that very convincing. The story of Jacob and Esau fits in so perfectly, the ridiculous trade of his inheritance for a bowl of soup, and later regretting it greatly,but not able to repent.

 

 

You are correct, Hebrews 6 is speaking, not of believers going on to maturity, but about Hebrews going on unto Perfection, which is a theme consistent by the Writer of Hebrews and deals with the Completion Christ brought in regards to the Law. For example, remission of sins was under Old Testament Provision under the Law as well as before it. To atone for sins, the death imposed was vicarious through animals. Hebrews 10:1-4 makes it clear that the (Covenant of) Law could not make men "perfect/complete" in regards to remission of sins, because the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins. Hebrews 10:10-14 makes it clear that those sanctified by the Blood (death) of Christ are not only made perfect, but they are made perfect/complete...for ever.

 

And that is the Promise of God in the promise of the New Covenant, that "he would remember their sins...no more."

 

You are also correct in regards to unbelievers, natural men, partaking of the Holy Spirit, because that is the specific ministry He performs in this Age, convicting men of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Think about Judas who was empowered to preach the Kingdom Gospel.

 

You say...

 

I have heard that Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about someone who falls away in unbelief so badly that they never even want to come back, but I don't find that very convincing.

 

...and the issue to consider is that the Writer is trying to convince Hebrew brethren to progress from the First Principles of the Oracles of God (the ABCs found in the Old Testament) and...in that progression there is the demand to leave the Covenant of Law and embrace Christ and the New Covenant. Back up to Chapter Five and see why he cannot expound upon Christ. They are ignorant of the ABCs and need to be taught again, and are infantile in their understanding, and are lazy. In Hebrews 6:1-2 he demands they lay not again that which is foundational (i.e., "faith in God" is no longer acceptable, Faith in Christ is demanded of all men), and vv.4-6 make the simple point one cannot be renewed to repentance if they reject the very method through which repentance is gained (which is by "going on unto perfection.").

 

How does one "crucify Christ unto themselves again?" The answer is simple if we understand what the Writer is saying to His brethren, it is a return to the Old Testament provision of vicarious sacrifice, and "crucifying Christ pictorially" as all Old Testament sacrifices did. This as opposed to turning in faith to the One Sacrifice that can make one perfect, or, complete...in regards to remission of sins.

 

I am out of time but just want to say that understanding of this passage and Hebrews 10:26 (which also contrasts the Covenant of Law and the New Covenant) helps us to understand salvation better as a whole. If we understand that salvation is a one-time event in which the sinner is reconciled to God on an eternal basis, and that natural men benefit from the ministry of God in their lives (none of us would be saved if this were not true of natural men, lol), then we do not, as most do (in all groups), try to impose into these texts that in view are Christians.

 

In view are Jews. And Jews who have not yet "gone on unto perfection."

 

Understand perfection as taught by the Writer of Hebrews (hence the Holy Ghost), and you will understand the more difficult passages of Scripture which can cause you to question your own salvation. We are all going to sin, and when we do, it is normal for us to wonder if we really are saved. That is a poor way to gauge one's relationship to and with God, and it is made worse when we have not properly understood the warnings in Scripture. As I recently told one fellow, unbelievers seldom question their salvation, just as the insane do not regularly know they are insane, lol. Continuance in the Faith of Christ is a far better evidence of salvation, as well as a proper understanding of Scripture, and so far it seems the Lord is directing your thoughts on perhaps one of several of Scripture's most misunderstood passages. So my advice to you is stay in the Word of GOd and work out your salvation, lol. I believe its there, just still in the process of growth just like the rest of us.

 

If you like we can look at the fuller context of Hebrews 5:10-6:12, because we are going to misunderstand this passage if we take them out of their context, as most do, particularly those who teach loss of salvation. Hebrews 10:14 is, in my own opinion, the clearest statement of Eternal Salvation in Scripture, bar none. Why It is so is due to the fact of being made perfect (in regards to remission of sins) through Christ.

 

God bless.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by S.T.Ranger