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29 minutes ago, busdrvrlinda54 said:

Pastor Markle,

Thank you, sir. I totally agree that there is nothing in the Bible that states that pantswear is strictly menswear. There are, however, some hints in the Bible that suggest what modest dressing is. For instance, Isaiah 47:1-3 says "Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man." This says that it is shameful for a woman to show her legs, and that God considers the showing of, at least the thighs, to be nakedness. Now, I know that this is old testament, but 2 Timothy 3:16 says that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: In Matthew 5:28,Jesus talks about men lusting after women being adultery, and I don't want to be even partially responsible for causing that sin. Romans 14:15, 16 says " But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. Let not then your good be evil spoken of:" So, we are somewhat responsible for causing others to sin. And then there is 1 Tim. 2:9 "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"  The question, of course, is "what is modest apparel?" I see it to be clothing that is distinctly feminine, but would not cause a Christian man to stumble. Since most pants for women these days are skin tight, I choose that to be long, loose skirts. However, I do believe that what a woman wears is between her and God. 

Again, Sister Linda - Amen and AMEN!  I do not at all stand in disagreement with your perspective on the various passages (including those from the Old Testament), and I highly respect your decision in relation to modesty, both in order to honor the Lord our God as a woman of godliness and in order to show godly love unto your brothers in Christ through modest (non-sexually provocative) apparel.  As one of those brothers in Christ, I thank you for this.

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Here is what we know of what God says about the matter of gender-specific clothing:

 

(Deuteronomy 22:5) "¶ The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.”

 

He is clearly stating that there is clothing that exists for each gender that the other must not wear.  

 

We can all come up with obvious and uncontested examples of clothing that are only to be worn by women (dresses, skirts, brassieres, pantyhose &c.). We must be able to do the same thing for men’s clothing.  If it is not possible for women to wear clothing that is only for men to wear, then Deut. 22:5 makes no sense.

 

So, if a skirt or a dress, which covers the lower half of the body, is an unmistakable and exclusively female garment, of which a man is not to wear, a garment must exist, which covers the lower half of the body, which is unmistakably and exclusively male, which a woman is not to wear.  I believe that, today, that garment is called a pair of pants. I believe that the biblical equivalent were breeches.

 

Noah Webster’s 1828 Dictionary defines breeches thusly:

 

BREECHES, noun plural brich'es. [Low Latin braccoe.]

A garment worn by men, covering the hips and thighs. It is now a close garment; but the word formerly was used for a loose garment, now called trowsers, laxoe braccoe.

To wear the breeches is, in the wife, to usurp the authority of the husband.

 

Breeches are mentioned five times in Scripture and they are all in relation to men. (Exodus 28:42, Exodus 39:28, Leviticus 6:10, Leviticus 16:4 and Ezekiel 44:18). 

 

They are also implied by the use of the euphemism of covering one’s feet in Judges 3:24 and 1 Samuel 24:3.  Some argue that covering one’s feet may mean that they were sleeping (their feet covered by the blankets).  I find this unlikely since the variations of sleep (sleep, sleepeth, sleeping, slept, slumber, slumbereth and slumbered) are used 156 times and no euphemism would be needed for sleeping.  That would be akin to the word of God recording that Saul went into a cave to “saw some wood” or that King Eglon’s servants were ashamed that their king was “catching a few z’s.”

 

I don’t believe that we can draw a distinction between women’s pants and men’s pants.  That would be like saying that men are allowed to wear men’s dresses, just not women’s dresses.  

 

A male friend of mine used to wear low rise, tight fitting blue jeans.  It wasn’t until I went to a store with him that I learned that he bought women’s jeans.  He had been wearing jeans designed for women, for years, and I had no idea.  I just thought he dressed like an idiot.

 

Perhaps, there are some who might be able to discern between men’s and women’s pants up close, but who can make that distinction from 100 feet away or more?  If I see a silhouette of a person wearing a pair of pants, how am I to know if that person is a man or a woman?  Most would say that they would then try to discern feminine shapes and anatomy, which causes us to look at and concentrate on areas which contain genitalia, which is something that I don’t believe that God wants us to be doing.

 

I think attempting to draw a line between men’s pants and women’s pants is straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.  We are told to "Abstain from all appearance of evil.”  When a liberty is in question, I err on the side of caution and self restriction, or like my father taught me, “When in doubt, do without.” If I am unclear on wether of not scripture permits something, or if a permitted thing will cause someone else to stumble, I have no problem abstaining from that thing or action.  

 

The subject of women wearing pants is as clear to me as men wearing dresses, but I am aware that it is not as clear to others as it is to me.  To them, I would ask, “Why is it so important for you that women be allowed to wear pants when you know that it causes division and confusion?”

 

Consider this example: An employer makes a rule that his male employees must wear black shirts and that his female employees must wear white shirts.  What would be a good reason for either gender to see how much of the opposing color they could get away with adding to their shirts before they could be accused of not wearing their assigned color?

 

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1 hour ago, Brother Stafford said:

The subject of women wearing pants is as clear to me as men wearing dresses, but I am aware that it is not as clear to others as it is to me.  To them, I would ask, “Why is it so important for you that women be allowed to wear pants when you know that it causes division and confusion?”

What would be a dividing line for that? I'm not trying to be ugly here...I'm just now making steps towards a stronger Christian life...

I mean, if I'm wearing sort of pajama pants in my house, but I make sure I'm dressed decently and modestly if I go out, is that OK? I'm coming from the "if I have clothes on and my shoes are on the right feet I'm good" life. I DO want to change my dress, etc...but I will have a bunch of questions, some of which may sound stupid. I apologize in advance for it. 

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Dear Sister Saved 41199,

If you don't mind, I have a question for you. Say you are relaxing at home by yourself, wearing your pajama pants, and somebody you don't know knocks on your door. Would you answer?

Linda

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12 hours ago, Saved41199 said:

What would be a dividing line for that? I'm not trying to be ugly here...I'm just now making steps towards a stronger Christian life...

I mean, if I'm wearing sort of pajama pants in my house, but I make sure I'm dressed decently and modestly if I go out, is that OK? I'm coming from the "if I have clothes on and my shoes are on the right feet I'm good" life. I DO want to change my dress, etc...but I will have a bunch of questions, some of which may sound stupid. I apologize in advance for it. 

Sister Saved,

You should never apologize for asking honest questions; that's how we learn and grow in our faith.  To answer your question, I believe that we should always dress to please the Lord; regardless of where we are located.  A simple way of discerning an answer to similar questions would be to reverse the roles.  For example, would it be acceptable for a man to wear a dress in his house, even if he is alone?  If something is an abomination in public, it is an abomination in private, is it not?

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3 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

A simple way of discerning an answer to similar questions would be to reverse the roles.  For example, would it be acceptable for a man to wear a dress in his house, even if he is alone?  If something is an abomination in public, it is an abomination in private, is it not?

I never thought of this. Thank you for another point of view for me to look at. You are right...I need to continue to change out my wardrobe then. I don't have the cash to just toss what I have now. 

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49 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

I never thought of this. Thank you for another point of view for me to look at. You are right...I need to continue to change out my wardrobe then. I don't have the cash to just toss what I have now. 

I can understand that.  I was in the same situation when I changed my wardrobe.  Although, I was not wearing dresses, I was wearing men's clothing that I now believe was inappropriate and juvenile.  I went out and bought four pairs of pants, four long sleeve shirts (to hide my tattoos) and threw out all of my old clothing.  I wore those eight pieces of clothing (along with socks, shoes and underclothes that I already had, of course) until I could start to afford more items, one at a time; many things I got from thrift stores.  I finished restoring an expensive antique for one of my customers and was finally able to afford a simple suit from Jos. A. Bank to wear to church.

It takes a while and can be humbling, but it can be done.  One of my biggest challenges was getting over my vanity.  It's gone now, but when I first switched, I had a difficult time looking like "a square."

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1 minute ago, Brother Stafford said:

It takes a while and can be humbling, but it can be done.  One of my biggest challenges was getting over my vanity.  It's gone now, but when I first switched, I had a difficult time looking like "a square."

This is part of my problem too. I was always a "tomboy" type, jeans and t-shirts and my idea of dressed up was jeans without holes and a t-shirt that wasn't a concert shirt. I've noticed that I feel different when I'm not wearing those types of clothes too...I teach part time and have to wear "professional" type clothes so shifting from pants to skirts there won't be hard. As shallow as it sounds, my biggest problem there will be shoes. I have foot and ankle issues so supportive running shoes are the best for me...so finding shoes that have the same effect without looking like running shoes will be hard. 

Thank you for your support in this...you'd think a grown woman wouldn't have so many questions...but...I'm coming from a VERY worldly life...God is stripping it from me bit by bit now. 

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55 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

Thank you for your support in this...you'd think a grown woman wouldn't have so many questions...but...I'm coming from a VERY worldly life...God is stripping it from me bit by bit now. 

As long as you are seeking God's truth, I would be more concerned if you stopped having questions.  It is only the foolish questions that we are to avoid (Titus 3:9).  By all means, keep asking questions.  All of us are still learning and God encourages to do so:

(Proverbs 12:1) "Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish."

(Proverbs 15:14) "The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness."  

(Psalms 119:66) "Teach me good judgment and knowledge: for I have believed thy commandments."

It is not possible for any of us to know all the things of God or to achieve perfection and we are not expected to.  That is one of the purposes of Christ's sacrifice.  

(Isaiah 64:6) "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

(Romans 5:8) "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

We learn about Him and His words and strive to obey Him, not because doing so will save us (It won't; that's what the cross did), but because we adore Him and we wish to please Him.  It sounds like the Holy Spirit has been busy convicting your heart and that you are approaching things with a willing and obedient heart.  Keep going in that direction and keep asking questions and read His word as often as possible.  I'm so glad you're here.

Edited by Brother Stafford

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32 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

It sounds like the Holy Spirit has been busy convicting your heart and that you are approaching things with a willing and obedient heart.  Keep going in that direction and keep asking questions and read His word as often as possible.  I'm so glad you're here.

Yes...lots of conviction these days! Its ok though...I realize that I'd been wearing a Christian "mask" for a long time, but not really letting God in and giving my life over to him FULLY. It's definitely not easy, but the Lord never said that following Him would be. The most interesting thing I've noticed is how much more the Word is penetrating my soul and spirit now that I've given up the modern bible versions. One of the first things I did was purchase a KJV (a bible I was never interested in reading before) and as I started reading, things became more meaningful, more piercing to my soul. 

Thank you for being so accepting to this newbie

Saved

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On ‎1‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 1:42 PM, Saved41199 said:

This is part of my problem too. I was always a "tomboy" type, jeans and t-shirts and my idea of dressed up was jeans without holes and a t-shirt that wasn't a concert shirt. I've noticed that I feel different when I'm not wearing those types of clothes too...

I know what you mean. I went back and forth between pants and skirts a bit in my late teens (we're talking a few years of wearing pants, then not for a while), and you do totally feel (and to some extent, act) different with pants than with skirts!

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I'm on day 4 of nothing but skirts...I need to go shopping! I also need to get rid of my addiction to tank tops, but here in the desert, sometimes it's just too hot to wear anything else! That's the other problem I'm having...how to dress modestly, wearing skirts/dresses and dealing with 100+ degree heat. I already won't go swimming in a public pool, I dream of having a house with our own pool. Going to have to think about that if I end up joining a gym and taking up swimming again for exercise. 

Oh well, following Christ never will be easy but I'm liking this losing the horrid conviction over my clothing. 

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25 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

I'm on day 4 of nothing but skirts...I need to go shopping! I also need to get rid of my addiction to tank tops, but here in the desert, sometimes it's just too hot to wear anything else! That's the other problem I'm having...how to dress modestly, wearing skirts/dresses and dealing with 100+ degree heat.

Well, I dealt with a similar situation when I was faced with the desire to cover all of the tattoos on both of my arms.  When it's not winter, I enjoy gardening and other outdoor work, as well as hiking, walking and running.  I was concerned about the heat of the summer months, but then I started thinking about footage that I have seen that shows people in desert climates wearing more clothing than I wear in the winters here in Michigan.  How can they wear all of that clothing without collapsing?  I also remembered that all the men used to wear suits to the church in the summers before there was air conditioning and the women were always fully covered as well.  I remembered my grandfather always wearing a suit jacket and slacks; even in the height of summer and even while he mowed the lawn with a reel mower.

So, I put on my trousers and an undershirt and then a long sleeve, button down, collared shirt on top of that and then a wide brimmed amish-style straw hat.  For the fist few moments, when I went out into the heat, it was a bit uncomfortable, but then, when I began to perspire, even the slightest hint of a breeze would cool me down.  The parts that got the hottest were the parts that weren't covered by clothing.  I think it's several decades being spoiled by ubiquitous air conditioning that has eliminated our tolerance for heat and that we have forgotten how to make our clothing keep us cool.  

Edited by Brother Stafford

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You got it Brother Stafford!

Several years ago I determined to quit dressing like a beach bum.  No matter the weather I wear a long sleeve button down shirt, canvas trousers with braces and usually a matching canvas vest.  With my brogans and Sam Houston straw hat and full beard some say I've stepped out of the Victorian era or that I must be Amish!  

The clothes are very comfortable, even at my weight, even during the summer.  At my wife's behest, I did add some short sleeve shirts to my closet which are displacing my old fishing shirts which I'd been wearing since George Bush's first years in office.  Even indoors I try to look nice now and set an example for my wife and children.  I believe one of the keys to comfort is no plastic clothes!  Cotton, linen and wool only for me now thank you.

Can't wait for my high top boots to arrive, it's not easy for really fat men to tie shoe laces!   

I bought my girls bloomers to try on instead of the plastic underwear they've grown accustomed to but they convienently lost them and I gave up trying to have them try them on for a day.  They are interested in corsets and we've bought a couple which they'll begin using after school lets out.  So there is hope for them yet!  Day to day though, most of my girls and my wife dress modestly with more modern clothes.  Our oldest is in that phase of life where they know so much that isn't so, sigh!

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I can't deal with heat very well. Due to a medical condition, I do not sweat. I overheat. I turn bright red, get dizzy, vomit and pass out if I'm out in the heat/sun for very long. Anything that would raise my body temperature, even temporarily, has potentially devastating effects on me. I know, I live in the desert and if I have that sort of problem how dumb can you be...well....this is where we are. So, I'll have to figure out ways to avoid getting sick in 100+ degree days. I'll be teaching this summer, so I'll avoid the worst part of the day by being in my classroom...but getting in the car is going to be rough. The inside of cars here can reach as high as 150 degrees in the summer here. 

PS: my teaching job is part-time, 4 hours a day, 4 days a week...UNLESS the school adds more classes to my schedule. I LOVE LOVE LOVE not working full time anymore. 

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6 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

but getting in the car is going to be rough. The inside of cars here can reach as high as 150 degrees in the summer here. 

You can have an aftermarket remote starter installed in your car, so that, if you leave your a/c turned on when you leave your car, you can start it with a remote control 5 minutes or so early, and it will be cool by the time you get in.

My mother has the same issue with the lack of ability to perspire.  She uses those cool neck wraps when she knows she is going to be in the heat.

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3 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

You can have an aftermarket remote starter installed in your car, so that, if you leave your a/c turned on when you leave your car, you can start it with a remote control 5 minutes or so early, and it will be cool by the time you get in.

My mother has the same issue with the lack of ability to perspire.  She uses those cool neck wraps when she knows she is going to be in the heat.

no remote starter in my neighborhood...my car would be gone in a second! Living here in the desert is an adventure in the summer. Starting a car in the heat and letting it sit is also not a great idea...too much of a chance for the engine to overheat (car's not moving and the fan isn't spinning). I plan to go shopping soon and start building my wardrobe for the summer. I can probably find tops that would cover my shoulders. 

The cool wraps don't work on me...I passed out hot even with one of those on a 110 degree day. Woke up a couple of hours later in the hospital wrapped in a cooling blanket with a concussion and goose egg on my noggin. 

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12 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

You can have an aftermarket remote starter installed in your car, so that, if you leave your a/c turned on when you leave your car, you can start it with a remote control 5 minutes or so early, and it will be cool by the time you get in.

Now that gave me a double take... coming from a cold climate (it was -45 Celsius/-49 Fahrenheit last night with the wind chill), we use remote starters to warm the car up! Never thought about them being used to cool cars down! :1_grinning:

Hey, what happened to our good ol' OB emoticons? :(

19 hours ago, Saved41199 said:

I'm on day 4 of nothing but skirts...I need to go shopping! I also need to get rid of my addiction to tank tops, but here in the desert, sometimes it's just too hot to wear anything else! That's the other problem I'm having...how to dress modestly, wearing skirts/dresses and dealing with 100+ degree heat. I already won't go swimming in a public pool, I dream of having a house with our own pool. Going to have to think about that if I end up joining a gym and taking up swimming again for exercise. 

Depending on what your convictions are, there are some pretty decent swimwear options out there. I made a swimsuit from the simply-modest.com pattern. Making your own is cheaper (I found material at a fabric store that was clearing out), and actually really easy (you don't have to hem swimwear material!), and you can adjust the pattern. I made my skirt longer, past my knees, and added a funny little tunic top, and I really like the outcome. I could walk down the street in that outfit and you'd never know it was a swimsuit. ;-)

 

 

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3 hours ago, Salyan said:

Hey, what happened to our good ol' OB emoticons? :(

Salyan, as your newest Admin. That is one of my first concerns. I will be working to restore the emoticons as soon as I familiarize myself with the admin control panel. 

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12 hours ago, Saved41199 said:

...too much of a chance for the engine to overheat (car's not moving and the fan isn't spinning).

Is something wrong with your car then?  An engine driven fan turns when the motor is running.  Electric fans are thermostat controlled.  Usually one is to cool the engine and the other provides additional cooling when the air conditioning is turned on.

With a remote start kit in an older car, the steering wheel is still locked as the keys are not in the ignition.  We enjoyed our factory remote start to cool the car down and likewise, a thief cannot steal the car with the motor and a/c running.  Everything else is shut down and still locked.

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3 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Is something wrong with your car then?  An engine driven fan turns when the motor is running.  Electric fans are thermostat controlled.  Usually one is to cool the engine and the other provides additional cooling when the air conditioning is turned on.

I don't know if you've ever lived in the desert...however, cars overheating when they are not moving is pretty common here. A traffic jam in 110+ degree heat where everyone is sitting usually leads to a few cars overheating. Living in extreme heat is different than living in the heat almost anywhere else. 

Regarding the fan...if the fan is sucking in 110+ degree air, it isn't going to cool off much across the radiator if the car is sitting still...it will also start sucking in the air from the engine itself. Even the news warns against letting a car sit while its running. 

Not trying to be argumentative here but the truth is living in the desert is not like living other places in the summer. I'm from the southern coast of Virginia. Summer here is nothing like summer there. 

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All this discussion is great! I would like to say though that this is something we work on once becoming a Christian. Unfortunately, there are too many preachers in the pulpits blasting their congregation with this. It needs to be preached and taught, but one must remember that there are lost souls present and some will assume that's part of salvation. We must be careful to preach the gospel and not a personal conviction. The whole Bible should be preached, but not used as an occasion to sin.

Acts 15:24‭-‬29

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:  It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,  Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.  We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;  That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

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On 1/12/2017 at 8:02 PM, Saved41199 said:

I don't know if you've ever lived in the desert...however, cars overheating when they are not moving is pretty common here. A traffic jam in 110+ degree heat where everyone is sitting usually leads to a few cars overheating. Living in extreme heat is different than living in the heat almost anywhere else. 

Regarding the fan...if the fan is sucking in 110+ degree air, it isn't going to cool off much across the radiator if the car is sitting still...it will also start sucking in the air from the engine itself. Even the news warns against letting a car sit while its running. 

Not trying to be argumentative here but the truth is living in the desert is not like living other places in the summer. I'm from the southern coast of Virginia. Summer here is nothing like summer there. 

I'm from and live in southern Florida, heat is no stranger to me.  My recommendation about cooling off your car with a remote start would not put your good running car in any jeopardy, mine shuts off after ten minutes if I'm delayed for example.  

As an old race car builder and driver, there are things that can be done to let you idle away on the hottest days for hours on end if need be without a problem.   

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1 hour ago, swathdiver said:

I'm from and live in southern Florida, heat is no stranger to me.  My recommendation about cooling off your car with a remote start would not put your good running car in any jeopardy, mine shuts off after ten minutes if I'm delayed for example.  

As an old race car builder and driver, there are things that can be done to let you idle away on the hottest days for hours on end if need be without a problem.   

I'll look into it. I have to get it back on the road first. It has a dead power steering pump and it's $$ I don't have right now. My first paycheck from when I start teaching again will go to fixing my car. Come on February 17th and please Lord do a loaves and fishes miracle in my pantry and freezer. 

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