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Eric Stahl

Mid Tribulation fleeing of Israel

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I'm sorry - could you point me to the verse that says the Muslims will join with the Russians?

I can't seem to find it in my Bible.

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13 minutes ago, DaveW said:

I'm sorry - could you point me to the verse that says the Muslims will join with the Russians?

I can't seem to find it in my Bible.

Sure!

Ezekiel 38:Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops—many people are with you.

 

14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On that day when My people Israel dwell safely, will you not know it? 15 Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army. 

  Drawing a line due north from Jerusalem, the next major nation that line reacher is Russia!

"Gomer" was the Cimmerians of what's now southern Russia & the area of Galatia & Cappadocia

"Togarmah" was an ancestor people of several Turkish peoples and of southeast Anatolia. And i'm sure you know that Magog, Rosh, Meshach & Tubal were all peoples of what's now Russia. In ancient times they had at least one leader called Gog, so the prophecy must be about a modern Russian leader.  I'm sure  you know the current nations named in this prophecy are all Islamic, as are the peoples descended from those old, no-longer-extant nations. In the future,  when they're disarmed, they'll still have plenty of petrodollars, while even now we see Russia is money-strapped, barely able to sustain its military. Russia doesn't exactly care for Israel either, so it won't be hard for the Muslim nations involved to hire Russia to arm & lead them to war.

 

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Oh OK - so it they aren't actually named in the Bible and you are speculating that these that you refer to are the the same as those to whom the Bible refers....

Just so we understand that the Bible doesn't actually NAME either Russia or Muslims in fact.

Is it reasonable speculation? Yeah, probably, but IT IS NOT STATED.

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2 hours ago, DaveW said:

Oh OK - so it they aren't actually named in the Bible and you are speculating that these that you refer to are the the same as those to whom the Bible refers....

Just so we understand that the Bible doesn't actually NAME either Russia or Muslims in fact.

Is it reasonable speculation? Yeah, probably, but IT IS NOT STATED.

  OF COURSE the  name "Russia" isn't in Scripture. It didn't exist then. And neither did Islam. But those nations & peoples that DID exist then, & whose names have changed, are named in Scripture, and it's known to us what became of those peoples & what nations they're in today. And, of course, Persia(Iran), Ethiopia, and Libya all existed then and now.

    Scripture doesn't give too many names of people or countries for then-future times too often, but often clearly implies them. It DOES give Cyrus' name before he ruled Medo-Persia, and while Rome existed in Daniel's time, it  does not name Rome as becoming a great empire.

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7 hours ago, robycop3 said:

      Scripture doesn't give too many names of people or countries for then-future times too often, but often clearly implies them. It DOES give Cyrus' name before he ruled Medo-Persia, and while Rome existed in Daniel's time, it  does not name Rome as becoming a great empire.

Daniel does describe the Roman empire, though and it is the only empire named in the NT.

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10 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  OF COURSE the  name "Russia" isn't in Scripture. It didn't exist then. And neither did Islam. But those nations & peoples that DID exist then, & whose names have changed, are named in Scripture, and it's known to us what became of those peoples & what nations they're in today. And, of course, Persia(Iran), Ethiopia, and Libya all existed then and now.

    Scripture doesn't give too many names of people or countries for then-future times too often, but often clearly implies them. It DOES give Cyrus' name before he ruled Medo-Persia, and while Rome existed in Daniel's time, it  does not name Rome as becoming a great empire.

My point is that you are making categorical statements which are actually beyond Scripture.

I stated that it was probably reasonable speculation, but it is not certain.

Only a few years ago people were referring not to "Russia" per se but to "the Soviets" in relation to this.

There is a small but significant difference.

Many many years ago people were pointing to Napoleon as the anti-christ.

The point is that you don't know for certain if Russia will even be in existence when the times you are talking about actually happen.

There could be some sort of socio-political upheaval which changes the whole landscape (politically and nationally) before the anti-christ is revealed.

So again, it is reasonable speculation, BUT IT IS SPECULATION.

I really wish people would not state as fact that which can only be speculation, and they do it so often with prophecy.

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15 hours ago, robycop3 said:

Sure!

Ezekiel 38:Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops—many people are with you.

 

14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On that day when My people Israel dwell safely, will you not know it? 15 Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army.   

 

3) Feel free to quote the Bible, if you do we ask that you use the KJV. This is done to avoid confusion.
The Administrators and Moderators of this site believe that the KJV is Gods preserved Word for the English speaking people, and we ask that you respect that and use the KJV when quoting scripture.

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3 hours ago, DaveW said:

 

My point is that you are making categorical statements which are actually beyond Scripture.

I stated that it was probably reasonable speculation, but it is not certain.

Only a few years ago people were referring not to "Russia" per se but to "the Soviets" in relation to this.

There is a small but significant difference.

Many many years ago people were pointing to Napoleon as the anti-christ.

The point is that you don't know for certain if Russia will even be in existence when the times you are talking about actually happen.

There could be some sort of socio-political upheaval which changes the whole landscape (politically and nationally) before the anti-christ is revealed.

So again, it is reasonable speculation, BUT IT IS SPECULATION.

I really wish people would not state as fact that which can only be speculation, and they do it so often with prophecy.

 Well, Russia IS "Russia" right now. We don't know what it may be called in the future. And the peoples I named that are no longer nations are mostly in what is now Russia.

A "soviet" is a govt. council within Russia. The Soviet Union was made up of such councils that answered to the central govt. of Russia in Moscow. They were not independent, of course. But, as you know, Scripture specifically IDs those peoples, with several of those nations still existing today, so there should be no question that they'll be in that army that will intend to destroy Israel.

  I'm a person who believes Scripture as literally as possible. While I know there's some symbolism, similes, & metaphors within Scripture, they always represent a literal person, place, thing, or event.  And, Scripture points to a future coalition of mostly-Muslim nations that'll be led by what is now Russia against Israel.

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And again....... you refuse to acknowledge the point - what you state goes beyond the Scripture. 

When you go beyond Scripture,  you go into the arena of speculation and men's philosophy and ideas.

 

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7 hours ago, DaveW said:

And again....... you refuse to acknowledge the point - what you state goes beyond the Scripture. 

When you go beyond Scripture,  you go into the arena of speculation and men's philosophy and ideas.

 

  Gog, Magog, Rosh, Meshech, Tubal, Togarmah, & Gomer are all in Scripture. And, while their posterity isn't called by those names now, they still all exist, & I pointed out what became of them over time. I think you're arguing just to argue.

Edited by Salyan
Euphemisms and vulgarity are not welcome here.

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Not arguing for arguments sake - trying to give you some advice.

Proverbs 12: 1  Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

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17 hours ago, DaveW said:

Not arguing for arguments sake - trying to give you some advice.

Proverbs 12: 1  Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is brutish.

  So, please tell me how I'm going beyond Scripture when I named nations & peoples FROM Scripture.

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It’s been a few years since I studied out this subject - but I do remember reading/studying articles, books, etc. that traced these OT people groups to modern cities, areas, peoples, etc. They very clearly showed their connections to arab and muslim nations today - so would have to agree with Roby on this one.

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OK then, since it is apparently so difficult to understand....

You posted this:

On 3/17/2019 at 6:54 PM, robycop3 said:

  The Gog-Magog war will be when a coalition of Muslim states asks Russia to arm them & lead them against Israel. This will be after the "beast" brokers some kinda deal which will cause Israel to disarm & become "a land of unwalled villages". (The Muslims will have disarmed also, but the old hatred will still be there.) Given the rapidity with which most modern militaries can now move, they'll be able to move faster in the future & will launch their attack before the beast can react. But GOD will intervene for Israel, as Scripture says.

 

  Preterists believe Jesus' warning to flee Jerusalem was carried out during the Roman sieges of 68-70 AD, but, after Vespasian ended the first siege, it was some eight months before his son Titus returned with a larger army which conquered & sacked Jerusalem & destroyed the temple. People had PLENTY of time to escape Jerusalem between the sieges. They didn't have to flee immediately as Jesus warned, so Jesus was referring to another event that'll occur very shortly after the beast commits the "abomination of desolation".

I asked:

On 3/17/2019 at 8:07 PM, DaveW said:

I'm sorry - could you point me to the verse that says the Muslims will join with the Russians?

I can't seem to find it in my Bible.

You replied:

On 3/17/2019 at 8:49 PM, robycop3 said:

Sure!

Ezekiel 38:Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops—many people are with you.

 

14 “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On that day when My people Israel dwell safely, will you not know it? 15 Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army. 

  Drawing a line due north from Jerusalem, the next major nation that line reacher is Russia!

"Gomer" was the Cimmerians of what's now southern Russia & the area of Galatia & Cappadocia

"Togarmah" was an ancestor people of several Turkish peoples and of southeast Anatolia. And i'm sure you know that Magog, Rosh, Meshach & Tubal were all peoples of what's now Russia. In ancient times they had at least one leader called Gog, so the prophecy must be about a modern Russian leader.  I'm sure  you know the current nations named in this prophecy are all Islamic, as are the peoples descended from those old, no-longer-extant nations. In the future,  when they're disarmed, they'll still have plenty of petrodollars, while even now we see Russia is money-strapped, barely able to sustain its military. Russia doesn't exactly care for Israel either, so it won't be hard for the Muslim nations involved to hire Russia to arm & lead them to war.

 

Now please note: NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE PASSAGE YOU QUOTED DO YOU SEE EITHER RUSSIA OR THE MUSLIMS MENTIONED.

I then replied:

On 3/17/2019 at 9:18 PM, DaveW said:

Oh OK - so it they aren't actually named in the Bible and you are speculating that these that you refer to are the the same as those to whom the Bible refers....

Just so we understand that the Bible doesn't actually NAME either Russia or Muslims in fact.

Is it reasonable speculation? Yeah, probably, but IT IS NOT STATED.

Note that I said I thought it was probably reasonable speculation, but YOU STATED IT AS OUTRIGHT FACT ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS.

In STATING IT AS OUTRIGHT FACT you are going beyond the Bible.

As unlikely as it appears to us today, you have to agree that it is possible (Incredibly unlikely, but possible) that in some way the Muslim religion ceases to exist before the time of the passage to which you refer.

And as unlikely as it appears to us today, it is possible that Russia could cease to exist before the time spoken of in the passage you refer to.

THEREFORE because of the fact that you STATE THESE THIGNS IN THE TERMS OF A CATEGORICAL FACT you are going beyond the Bible.

It is really not all that difficult to understand.

State the exact same premise in the terms of likely speculation, or even in terms of probable fulfillment, and I have no problem - I actually agree that in light of what we know today, your premise is the most likely - BUT IS IT NOT BIBLICAL FACT.

And for reference I mentioned that people at one time thought that Napoleon was the anti-Christ. It seemed to make sense to them at the time, but THEIR SPECULATION WAS WRONG

A good number of people also thought that Hitler was the anti-Christ. It made sense to them at the time, but THEIR SPECULATION WAS WRONG.

 

And by the way, there is no indication of Muslims in the Bible - it is various brands of Arab peoples that can be referred to Biblically, but not muslims in general. The fact that the overwhelming majority of Arab nations are also Muslim is true, but biblically irrelevant. You can point to various brands of Arab peoples and SPECULATE about a muslim link, but biblically the only true link that can be made is to their Arab heritage, not their religion per se.

 

In STATING SUCH THINGS AS OUTRIGHT FACT you are going beyond the Bible, and that leads to dangerous places.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, DaveW said:

OK then, since it is apparently so difficult to understand....

You posted this:

I asked:

You replied:

Now please note: NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE PASSAGE YOU QUOTED DO YOU SEE EITHER RUSSIA OR THE MUSLIMS MENTIONED.

I then replied:

Note that I said I thought it was probably reasonable speculation, but YOU STATED IT AS OUTRIGHT FACT ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS.

In STATING IT AS OUTRIGHT FACT you are going beyond the Bible.

As unlikely as it appears to us today, you have to agree that it is possible (Incredibly unlikely, but possible) that in some way the Muslim religion ceases to exist before the time of the passage to which you refer.

And as unlikely as it appears to us today, it is possible that Russia could cease to exist before the time spoken of in the passage you refer to.

THEREFORE because of the fact that you STATE THESE THIGNS IN THE TERMS OF A CATEGORICAL FACT you are going beyond the Bible.

It is really not all that difficult to understand.

State the exact same premise in the terms of likely speculation, or even in terms of probable fulfillment, and I have no problem - I actually agree that in light of what we know today, your premise is the most likely - BUT IS IT NOT BIBLICAL FACT.

And for reference I mentioned that people at one time thought that Napoleon was the anti-Christ. It seemed to make sense to them at the time, but THEIR SPECULATION WAS WRONG

A good number of people also thought that Hitler was the anti-Christ. It made sense to them at the time, but THEIR SPECULATION WAS WRONG.

 

And by the way, there is no indication of Muslims in the Bible - it is various brands of Arab peoples that can be referred to Biblically, but not muslims in general. The fact that the overwhelming majority of Arab nations are also Muslim is true, but biblically irrelevant. You can point to various brands of Arab peoples and SPECULATE about a muslim link, but biblically the only true link that can be made is to their Arab heritage, not their religion per se.

 

In STATING SUCH THINGS AS OUTRIGHT FACT you are going beyond the Bible, and that leads to dangerous places.

 

 

 

  Still don't know what you're getting at, as neither Islam nor Russia existed in Biblical times. But God, of course, knew they WOULD exist, so He mentioned the peoples that would  become parts of Russia, and some whu would become Islamic nations. Had God said "Russia" or "Islam" to Ezekiel, he wouldn't have known what God was talking about.

   God didn't name Assyria or Babylon well-in-advance to Israel & Judah when He told each of them they'd be conquered by strong nations from the north, although both Assyria & Babylon existed at the time. But he DID tell Hezekiah that some day the gold & silver in the temple would be carried off to Babylon.

 

  I don't see how maning nations from Scripture and pointing out the current nations that descended from them is going beyong the Bible.

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18 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  Still don't know what you're getting at, as neither Islam nor Russia existed in Biblical times. But God, of course, knew they WOULD exist, so He mentioned the peoples that would  become parts of Russia, and some whu would become Islamic nations. Had God said "Russia" or "Islam" to Ezekiel, he wouldn't have known what God was talking about.

   God didn't name Assyria or Babylon well-in-advance to Israel & Judah when He told each of them they'd be conquered by strong nations from the north, although both Assyria & Babylon existed at the time. But he DID tell Hezekiah that some day the gold & silver in the temple would be carried off to Babylon.

 

  I don't see how maning nations from Scripture and pointing out the current nations that descended from them is going beyong the Bible.

God through Daniel did mention the medes and the Greeks before hand and God actually named Cyrus 150 years before he was born in Isaiah.

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6 hours ago, Invicta said:

God through Daniel did mention the medes and the Greeks before hand and God actually named Cyrus 150 years before he was born in Isaiah.

 Correct! but He didn't mention Russia nor Islam. But history shows Magog, etc. became part of what's now Russia, Turkey, etc. same as Persia became Iran. I can't see how calling those ancient peoples by the names of the nations they later became is going beyond the Bible. As things stand right now, there's no nation named Magog with a leader called Gog, so why not use their current names?

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15 hours ago, robycop3 said:

 Correct! but He didn't mention Russia nor Islam. But history shows Magog, etc. became part of what's now Russia, Turkey, etc. same as Persia became Iran. I can't see how calling those ancient peoples by the names of the nations they later became is going beyond the Bible. As things stand right now, there's no nation named Magog with a leader called Gog, so why not use their current names?

Magog is now Georgia, now independent from Russia, I believe.

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13 hours ago, Invicta said:

Magog is now Georgia, now independent from Russia, I believe.

  Think you're right, but they might well go along with Russia in that future war.

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On 3/22/2019 at 7:45 AM, robycop3 said:

  Think you're right, but they might well go along with Russia in that future war.

Ezekiel 38:3-7

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

 

Russia is the guard so Russia is Magog.

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13 hours ago, Eric Stahl said:

Ezekiel 38:3-7

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

 

Russia is the guard so Russia is Magog.

  That's what I've said for years. Russia is cash-strapped now, & will continue to be. Once the AC brokers a deal which'll cause the Muslims & Jews to disarm,  the Muslims, still bearing their hatred of Israel, will make a deal for Russia to arm &  lead them in an attack upon Israel, which'll then be "a land of unwalled villages".

 

  Notice that  all the nations that existed then, as well as those that were formed from those that no longer exist are all Muslim, except those that are now part ofd Russia. And also notice that Arabia, the seat of Islam, is not among them.

 

  The Muslims have never been very good fighters , except for the Turks, & WW1 showed they were pretty inept at MODERN warfare. Thus, they'll want Russia to lead them, both for their battle expertise, & their arms.

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4 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  That's what I've said for years. Russia is cash-strapped now, & will continue to be. Once the AC brokers a deal which'll cause the Muslims & Jews to disarm,  the Muslims, still bearing their hatred of Israel, will make a deal for Russia to arm &  lead them in an attack upon Israel, which'll then be "a land of unwalled villages".

 

  Notice that  all the nations that existed then, as well as those that were formed from those that no longer exist are all Muslim, except those that are now part ofd Russia. And also notice that Arabia, the seat of Islam, is not among them.

 

  The Muslims have never been very good fighters , except for the Turks, & WW1 showed they were pretty inept at MODERN warfare. Thus, they'll want Russia to lead them, both for their battle expertise, & their arms.

I believe it will be the Shiite Muslims with Russia and the antichrist with the Sunni Muslims from the tribes of Sheba and Dedan in Arabia.God will turn back the Russians till Israel destroys her neighbors. Psalm 83 and Obadiah. Then God will pull Russia against Israel and the antichrists army. Ezekiel 38 & 39

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On 4/3/2019 at 4:36 PM, Eric Stahl said:

I believe it will be the Shiite Muslims with Russia and the antichrist with the Sunni Muslims from the tribes of Sheba and Dedan in Arabia.God will turn back the Russians till Israel destroys her neighbors. Psalm 83 and Obadiah. Then God will pull Russia against Israel and the antichrists army. Ezekiel 38 & 39

  I believe GOD will directly intervene for Israel here, as Israel will be disarmed. This will be the first of His showing the Jews that Jesus is indeed Messiah.

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4 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  I believe GOD will directly intervene for Israel here, as Israel will be disarmed. This will be the first of His showing the Jews that Jesus is indeed Messiah.

Israel will not give up her nukes. She will blow away Syria Isaiah 17 and Egypt Isaiah19.And all her neighbors Psalm 83. Israel 's glory will be made thin also Isaiah17  so the antichrist will come to help Daniel 11:36-45.

 

Obadiah :18

18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.

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