Saw Kent Hovind

[Ronda]

4 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

interestingly enough, Romans 13 tells us one principle thing: that God ordained government. It does NOT give us style of government. And so...in the US, the STYLE of government leaves the authority in two places: the Constitution and we the people. And that is how the country is to be run. If something is unconstitutional, by virtue of the STYLE of government we have, it would be unbiblical to allow unconstitutional "departments" to continue to exist, as well as other unconstitutional things. There is a proper way to fight it, but too many American Christians don't understand it.

Sister LuAnne, I would agree that we DO have a constitutional style of government. This also gives us the right to VOTE for those in authority over us. "We, the people" voted (not I, not you, and HOPEFULLY not anyone here) for Mr. Barack Hussein Obama as "our" elected president. I do not (personally) agree with 99.95 of whatever comes out of his mouth, and I (personally) did not vote for him. Yet SOMEHOW, he won the votes of the American people, not just once but twice! This should be a HUGE indicator of the timeline we can place ourselves in (not just here in the US, but around the globe). Mankind decided LONG before our time that they wanted a 'king' to rule over them. God gave them what they wanted. And for centuries since, we have had a similar type of government (although this president is NOT afforded the rights of a monarch, even though he attempts to be a dictator). 

We were blessed of God for numerous reasons here in the US... first because our government was set up as endowed with unalienable rights given by our creator (GOD Himself). When one went to court, one swore on a BIBLE, it was commonplace to see the ten commandments in public areas (including governmental properties). We pledged allegiance to the flag, not just for patriotism, but because it included in the oath 'One nation under GOD'.  Bible reading was done in school, MOST of our neighbors attended church (of varying denominations). Family was a firm foundational structure of society. The list of 'good' attributes goes on and on. (As well as the US blessing Israel). However, NOW the majority of people are godless sinners who are perfectly fine wallowing in their sin. As society erodes, so does the government. We are NOW at the crisis point of complete moral bankruptcy (as a nation), and even IF a 'good' man were to be elected, there is far too much damage done to be undone. 

So while I fully believe in the constitutional rights given to us, I can also comprehend WHY those rights are being diminished by the day. Our government has become corrupt, and have taken bribes to 'vote' or to overlook various legislation which erodes our constitutional rights. And while you and I (and many others) do not agree with what is happening. We can EXPECT God to allow this to happen. Did we not set up a system where MANKIND makes the decisions? True, it WAS based on the fear and reverence of God. But the same system which afforded us these rights was used against us (Christians) to erode those rights by electing corrupt authority over us (because the majority now ARE corrupt as the elected officials). 

So while I do respectfully understand your passion for the constitutional rights of 'we the people', I also have to say PART of that system of authority IS the 3 branches of government (one of which includes the president). I brought forth numerous scripture in my answer to "UkeleleMike" (above) in regard to how God HIMSELF is the One who ordains who will be in authority over us. And sadly, God has given us the government "we" (the majority) deserve. We can expect to see further decline into the moral abyss of depravity. Not only has this evil man condoned sexual perversions of "gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, and transgender" sins, he has now attempted to mandate that upon us. THAT is a reason to NOT follow that authority (when it goes against God and forces us to SIN against God). 

BUT I do NOT believe we are permitted ANYWHERE (in God's word) to NOT pay taxes, to evade laws which do NOT go against God and force us to sin... no matter how grievous, burdensome,  wrong, and ridiculous we "think" or "feel" those laws to be. The ONLY reason to defy the authority GOD HIMSELF has placed over us, and to willfully break the law,  is when those laws cause us to sin against God! (such as the some of the LGBT legislation). PLEASE do not think I am in favor of anything this evil president has done! (I even believe he COULD try to "decree" laws permitting beastiality and pedophilia before he leaves office, IF he leaves office). He is a wicked evil man in authority over us because this nation is full of wicked evil godless people. "We the people" are NOT what "we the people" USED to be. SIN is the reason for it ALL. And while I am sure in scripture that we are not appointed to God's WRATH (1 Thes. 5:9) and that we are DELIVERED from the WRATH TO COME (1 Thes. 1:10) that does not preclude us from suffering persecution til He takes us up to meet Him in the air. And I admit it DOES persecute our souls to see what this nation has become because of selfish, sinful, rebellion against God... we can expect it to get worse! Just as 2 Tim. 3 1-5 tells us of the characteristics of those in the perilous last days (and we can see those exact characteristics prevalent NOW which is why this nation is going down the drain), we can also see that it WILL continue to get worse (no matter who gets elected by our rights to vote as part of our "by the people/for the people" style government). Verse 13 of that same chapter sums up what we are seeing and can expect to see (around the world) until He takes us up. "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived".

I would contend that BOTH Mr. Hovind's actions AND defiant attitude show not just 2 Tim 3:1-5, but verse 13 as well to be in full swing (as well as this nation as a whole, and the world around also). I would contend that 'we the people' ARE to be under the authority of this elected government (elected BY 'we the people') because GOD HIMSELF has placed and allowed those people in authority  there for HIS divine purpose. WE have no rights afforded (under the BIBLE) to break the law unless the law causes us to SIN against God!  And so I stand by my above statements that "paying taxes" (no matter how unfair and grievous they are) does NOT cause us to sin against God, and thus we must pay them.***And trust me, I DO understand how burdensome property tax is! IT ALONE is the reason I cannot afford many needed healthcare items not covered by medicare. Even though taxes themselves can be deemed by some to be "unconstitutional", we need to remember that the power WE elected brought forth those laws, AND  the authority OF the authority God has given over us is to be obeyed as long as it does not cause us to sin against God by doing so. 

God Bless! Maranatha!!!

 

[John81]

There sure seems to be a lot of popular mythology concepts regarding prisons, prisoners and related matters here.

Prisons vary, often greatly, depending upon whether they are State or federal (or even large county jails which are basically prisons). Variations also exist within these different systems, such as differences between minimum, medium, maximum and super maximum prisons. Within those different types there is much variety from one to another within each State and federal institutions. (These days there are also a number of private, corporate prisons too, which is another issue.

The prison system basically begins with how the justice system is set up, which includes an over abundance of laws, a goodly number of which conflict, confuse or are themselves actually illegal. Then there is the massive corruption throughout most of the system.

I have some personal experience through work and evangelism as well as a great deal of second hand information from friends and family who work in a variety of prisons around the country. I also have several police and lawyer friends and family. Along with this there is also some prisoner and ex-prisoner information.

In all my time working in prisons I've only ever encountered two prisoners who claimed to be innocent (that whole idea that "everyone in prison claims to be innocent" is false. One of those two was eventually released from prison after finally being cleared in an appeal court but only after spending about a year in county jail and over two years in a maximum security prison.

It is true that a good number in prison will point out they are not guilty of everything they were charged with. It's a common tactic in plea negotiations for prosecutors to add charges from unsolved cases to suspects willing to exchange accepting that for a lighter sentence. Therefore it's fairly common for some prisoners to say they are guilty of beating some guy, but they didn't rob some other guy or vandalize a car.

Most prisons today have so many willing homosexuals that rape isn't as common as most expect. Rapes in prison usually occur due to a matter of power or payment. Those prisoners who avoid such matters, as well as those with the right connections, have very little to worry about. Also, prisons sizes and styles of management vary so that the better run prisons have few incidences of rape.

In a general sense, while they don't "run the prison", certain prisoners do have a voice and hand in how the prison is run. It's a common tactic for a warden (and individual guards) to make deals with one or more prison gang leaders. This gives the gang leader a say on certain internal matters while giving the warden/guards a more stable environment.

One thing I've noticed when listening to people talk or post online about criminal and prison related matters is they don't take a lawful or Christian view of the subject. It's common for Christians to "hope criminal Joe gets put in a cell with Big Bubba and raped for 20 years", or "hope criminal Joe gets beat every day or killed". Both are unlawful and not in accord with Christianity.

It's interesting to note that for most of American history laws were limited and enforced. Then when a prisoner was released their full citizenship rights were restored. They weren't stripped of voting rights, 2nd amendment rights, job or career opportunities, etc. It's fun to read of former prisoners who went on to become good citizens holding positions as lawyers, policemen, doctors, etc.

In contrast, former prisoners today are penalized for the rest of their lives as their citizenship rights are not restored. Along with this many job and career paths are closed to them and these most often in fields where job growth and career opportunities are highest. This accounts for the reason a substantial number of former prisoners find themselves living off welfare, only able to find minimal, under the table or even illegal employment to survive. (don't misread that as encompassing the reason for all repeat offenders, it's not, some people are career criminals and they should be dealt with through appropriate sentencing, not laws that impede others from success)

In any event, most people who go to and are released from prison probably never had any homosexual encounters in prison unless they chose to. For those who were forced in this area, they deserve our sympathy and prayers. Love and compassion are to be hallmarks of Christians, not harshness.

We live in a fallen world where crime is a fact, corruption is a fact, and most "good guys" are lost sinners and a part of the problem too. We are called to love everyone, share the Gospel with everyone, pray for everyone.

[Ukulelemike]

14 hours ago, DaveW said:

Mike, if this is directed at me then please note that all I did was quote a definition, and ask if your definition included other information.

I actually quoted the entire definition from my source, and it does not include any such reference that your definition includes.

I suspect that you included only that part of the definition which suppotred your position, because tge definition you quoted starts with a "1.", indicating there is most likely a "2." at least.

My point was ONLY  that the definition of the Greek word used in that particular instance and from my source (Mysword android app in this instance) was not the same as your Websters definition. 

However, since mine is Bible word specific and a complete reference, I am personally inclined to take it over your general, non-specific, and (I assume) incomplete definition. (If you included all possible definitions listed in Websters then I unequivocally withdraw this assumption with apologies. Please let me know.)

And again, I make no comment at all about Kent Hovind one way or the other. I have an opinion, but do not think it is expedient to stand between two people who are so vehemently opposed on what is an unimportant matter.

According to Websters 1828, the meaning of Tribute, en toto:

    "TRIB'UTE, n. [L. tributum, from tribuo, to give, bestow or divide.]
1. An annual or stated sum of money or other valuable thing, paid by one prince or nation to another, either as an acknowledgment of submission, or as the price of peace and protection, or by virtue of some treaty. The Romans made all their conquered countries pay tribute, as do the Turks at this day; and in some countries the tribute is paid in children.
2. A personal contribution; as a tribute of respect.
3. Something given or contributed"

As to the Strong's meaning, that doesn't mean it is the Bible meaning., Again, one must go to the context and see how it is used, and it is NEVER seen as a tax to one's own government. Please look again. Or I would be happy to just put up all the quotes if you'd prefer. Strong's is a good reference but it isn't perfect-the Bible's use of the word is, however. This is why we don't try to use the Greek to fix the KJV English.

BY the way, there are four different Greek words translated as Tribute in the NT. Again, the usage in context should be studied out.

[Ukulelemike]

11 hours ago, Ronda said:

 

 

 

I have 3 life-long friends who now work as prison guards, and I can tell you the prisoners do NOT "run" the prison.
(If so they wouldn't BE IN prison, they would just let themselves OUT!)
They do, however have a horribly evil code of conduct amongst themselves, INCLUDING trading HOMOSEXUAL acts for "protection" from gangs.
No federal prison inmate will likely leave prison WITHOUT committing homosexual acts.
And so when Mr. Hovind SAYS that he has not had sexual relations with any other WOMAN that may be true... but I seriously DOUBT that he has not has homosexual relations with MEN after being imprisoned for so long a time. But regardless, the answer was in refute to your claim that prisoners "run things", and if that were the case, they would just "set themselves free". There IS a reason for prisons, there IS a reason for courts, there IS a reason for laws, there IS a reason for the authority God placed over mankind. Who are you, or I, or Mr. Hovind to rebel against something God has ordained?

Daniel 4:32 "...the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will"

I also find it amusing that I am told to "get my brain out of the 'status quo'" If you haven't noticed yet, I do not give one iota about public opinion. 
What I DO care about very much is what God's word has to say. HIS word is the final authority, not whatever 'status quo' or 'politically correct' wind happens to be blowing.
(BTW I would say the SAME THING if it were my 'favorite' pastor or teacher who had done these things!) There are those whom I admire for their devotion and their understanding of God's word, as well as the God-given blessing to be able to teach and convey God's word well. BUT if one of 'my favorite' pastors/teachers were to err against Gods word (and also be defiant during and even AFTER doing do), I would have no problem calling them out on it. My loyalty is not to mankind but to Christ.

So while I do NOT 'have my brain' in the 'status quo' (as you suggested), I DO have my brain (and heart) in the Bible and what God's word says obeying government (whether we AGREE with the government or not).
In ANY of the following Bible accounts, do these men (imprisoned) men of God complain because they were 'wrongfully imprisoned'? 
Do they later write books about how to "beat the system" and how horrible "the system" (of government) is? (and gain filty lucre by selling it?)
Do they not instead TRUST GOD that it is God's will. 
Do they not COMPLY with God's ordained governments (whether they, themselves think it's right or wrong)?

There are SEVERAL accounts of imprisonment in the Bible and in NONE of these cases do the imprisoned try to weasel their way out of the charges, nor do they write books for profit about their horrific experiences and complain about the injustices done them.
Daniel, Joseph, Samson, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, John (on Patmos) and many many other examples.
Each of these cases (of those who survived the imprisonments) were used to GOD's GLORY... not for their OWN personal source of greedy incoe derived by filthy lucre.

Dan. 5:21 "...the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will."

Does God's word tell us to flee,evade, hide assets, and use DECEIT in order to attempt to not be imprisoned?
It is GOD HIMSELF who sets up those in authority and also knocks them down.
Even when a government strays from good and become oppressive. When that happens, we are still to live in obedience. (AS long as we are loyal to GOD FIRST).

Romans 13:1-2
1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."
2 "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

DID Mr. Hovind RESIST it (read verse 2 carefully). He was guilty of contempt of court, obstructing justice, attempting to hide assets, and evasive tactics.

No matter what YOU or MR. HOVIND HIMSELF claim about this, lets look at the FACTS:
 (not from your opinion, my opinion, nor Mr. Hovinds protestations but from documented evidence, including court records and copies of court records as well)
I suppose one will claim that THOSE (actual documents) are "bogus" too... but cling to whichever TRUTH you find the truth to be in.

(Kent Hovind was serving) "a ten-year prison sentence in January 2007 for federal court convictions for failing to pay taxes, obstructing federal agents, and structuring cash transactions."
(paragraph 2) (contrary to what you and Mr. Hovind claimed)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind
(there are also MULTIPLE links of actual court documents on the right hand side of the page throughout the VERY lengthy page should anyone desire the TRUTH in evidence)

He even refused to pay for a $50. bulding permit, and took that to court losing and thereby ending up costing himself $675 in fines alone (who knows how much the legal fees totalled)?
had he just obeyed the law AGAIN, he would not have gotten into trouble.
(about halfway down under the heading: "Escambia County (2002–2006)")

Hovind DID commit tax fraud. NUMEROUS TIMES
"Hovind's organization had neither business licenses nor tax-exempt status"
(under "Federal civil tax matters, bankruptcy, and renouncing citizenship (1996–2006)")
He ALSO then tried to (after the fact) renounce his citizenship in order to evade the back taxes!

He was NOTORIOUS for claiming to have "beaten the tax system"
"In 2003, Hovind would tell The New York Times, 'I haven't filed a tax return in 30 years'

I could go on and on... the numerous LEGAL infractions of Mr. Hovind, pages and pages of court documents and hard evidence (not just Mr. Hovind's "word", since his "word" is of little value in the light of evidence)
His 'followers' will likely refute the truth of the claims. And I have no problem with the voicing of opinion.
What IS troubling is that is goes AGAINST God's word to illegally avoid paying taxes.
You and I might not FEEL and might not THINK that the tax system is fair (it has bankrupted many people I know, and it does need reform) YET... it is in place as our government is in place by GOD'S authority!
BUT it is God's word which is the final authority. NOT what WE think or feel that matters!

Romans 13 is clear that we are to "pay tribute" (v.6)
v. 7 "Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
v. 8 "Owe no man any thing..."

And the FINAL AUTHORITY is what does GOD say? What does GOD's literal word say?
Or is THAT also (supposedly) NOT to be taken literally?????

I DO beg to differ on what the Biblical us of the word 'tribute' is. It DOES mean TAXES on those under their authority, no matter how a person wants to TWIST it... it IS effectively a TAX! We could go to the Greek, but then that would be mocked, I could expound on the literal meaning in God's word, but then that would be mocked as well. Just take heed that it is ME you are mocking and not God. 
While I myself DO believe the constitution SHOULD BE (and was set forth to be) the law of the land, and I myself do think that the government HAS run roughshod all over it, and I myself struggle to pay exorbitant property taxes based on a corrupt valuation of real property and land... the fact of the matter remains that the LORD HIMSELF set those in authority over us.
We may well have numerous good reasons that we FEEL or THINK to disagree with that authority, however we are told in God's word to obey those in authority (no matter how we FEEL or what we THINK, so long as it doesn't cause us to sin against God)
Daniel was a perfect example of how we are to conduct ourselves.
Daniel followed EVERY rule laid forth by those in authority over him UP UNTIL he was required by that authority to sin against God.
And THAT he would not do, he would not bow the knee to the false "gods". And so Daniel was imprisoned because of it. He didn't try to evade the judgment, he didn't cry foul and whine about it afterwards, nor sell a book for filthy lucre about it either!
No, instead he trusted GOD. And that is what the Lord wants! Our complete trust and devotion to Him, and the respect and reverence to His word it deserves of us.
And again, we are to take God's word reverently and literally. God Himself has placed His word above His very name! THAT shows the extreme importance to those who revere Him and His word.

Psalm 138:2 "...for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name"
 

While there is nothing wrong with having a 'favorite pastor" or teacher to whom we feel we've learned from, we should NEVER place our loyalty in mankind ABOVE God or above God's word!
I've seen this 'favorite pastor' style defense akin to worship before. 
The PTL club Jim Bakker made similar legal offenses and served time for them as well.
Yet when he got out of PRISON, he SHOULD have realized his testimony was RUINED and he was only marking God's name in a bad light.
Had he TRULY had the witness of the LORD foremost in his desires, he would have tucked his tail between his legs and slithered off into the night...
BUT instead he's back on TV with another wife, and again fleecing the flocks of those who don't know the Bible well enough to know he was and still IS in error.
I would compare the two to each other, but as slimy a snake as Bakker is he at least professed to have repented of his sins (even if it is unlikely since he is STILL pushing "product" and "merchandise" for filthy lucre.
I would say that Hovind is even WORSE, because he is defiant of God's word and God's authority. He never even made a pretense of professing repentance, instead he continues to proclaim how "unfair" the law is, and how he doesn't want to obey those in authority over him (even though God Himself put those in aithority in their respective positions)

Psalm 75:5-7
5 "Lift not up your horn on high: speak not with a stiff neck."
6 "For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south."
7 "But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another."

Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God."

Daniel 2:21 "...he removeth kings, and setteth up kings..."

Moke, I can attest that I do not knowingly commit crime, nor would I ever (unless a law required me to sin against God).
IF I do break the law, it would NOT be because of willful intent, nor to defraud or evade prosecution.
If I DO break the law (unkowingly) and am charged with the crime, I will do the time (should I live long enough to do any time) and would comply with those in authority over me, because I realize that God Himself set those whom are in authority over e into the positions they are in for HIS purposes, and for HIS design (whether or not I 'think' or 'feel' that is it fair in my human comprehension of 'fairness'). 
I can say (should I survive long enough) I would NOT write a book about "the kennel" system and buck against God's ordained authority (unless it required me to sin against God).

In summary.. The lawlessness of the last days was foretold in scripture.
It is to be expected, but that certainly does not mean we are to be lawless ourselves, nor to condone those who are!
It is telling when mankind doesn't even see the need for authority or why God placed those in authority over us.
I (for one) will be glad to see the day when Obama leaves office (God willing should I be here, and IF he doesn't pull some stunt such as 'national state of emergency' and actuate martial law).
I (for one) would very much like to see our constitution upheld and the freedoms and rights afforded to us under it upheld as well.
However, in the meantime, should the Lord tarry, and should I live until the next president is elected... I will continue to abide by the law to the best of my ability unless and until that law determines I (personally) must go against God and sin. That would be the only reason to willfully break the law.
And I also will continue to uphold what God's word has to say as the final authority. Not twisted to suit a theory, not taken allegorically or figuratively (when there is no actual symbolism involved). But believe that HIS word IS the final authority in ALL matters.
I will also continue to call out false teachers, whether or not I (myself) in times past respected them or not. 
God is no resptector of persons. His word is the final authority.

And of the whole sordid Hovind lawlessnes, it brings to mind several verses. Here is just one set:
2 Tim 3:1-5
1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come."
2 "For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,"
3 "Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,"
4 "Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;"
5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

Maranatha!

 

 

Somehow I think you wouldn't have liked Paul very much. "At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge." (2Tim 4:16). So many listened, and apparently still listen, to an opposing media and to the numerous enemies of Hovind long before his 'crimes,' because everyone loves a good scandal, and so few of those have ever looked into the facts. Paul was put away for years according to the laws of the land, and eventually put to death for them, even though ultimately the charges, we know in hindsight, were false. But at the time, most forsook Paul. So many forsook Kent Hovind. yet he had an active ministry of bringing folks to Christ while he was in prison, and was greatly persecuted while in. He spent a lot of time in maximum security facilities, even though he was a minimum security prisoner. They moved him from facility to facility so often that his own family often didn't know where he was. No, you are wrong, Rhonda, Kent Hovind was a political prisoner. He went to prison for ten years for non-crimes, while people like Willie Nelson who owed millions never spent a day in jail, and Al Sharpton has yet to see the inside of a courtroom, though he owes over 3million dollars-though he sees the inside of the White House often. The tax crime they tried Hovind on was for not paying his employees' income tax withholdings, even though they were hired ads private contractors, meaning they were required to file them on their own. That wasn't his job. Kent Hovind didn't go against the laws of the land-he spent his ministry money in a responsible manner, but the government didn't like how he spent it, so they saw a way to put away a man who was dangerous to them and their ideas.

But if you're not willing to do the homework to learn the truth, I won't convince you. I suppose I am done. But for what it is worth, I have been more than willing to admit that I don't agree with some of what he is now teaching, and wish he would go back to what he was effective at, which is the creation vs evolution issue. I believe he has let his experiences get him distracted from his best work, and that is a shame, and for what its worth, I won't be doing much with this new ministry, though I will still support his creation work, and pray that he makes that his main focus again.

 

[HappyChristian]

That  "system of authority" is UNDER the Constitution and UNDER we the people. Those in elected office are our SERVANTS and are to obey the Constitution. And, again, that is something that the majority of Americans sadly misunderstand.

And, FWIW, making money off of books one writes or coloring books one creates, etc, is no more filthy lucre than selling vegetables one grows. If there is a demand for something and someone can fill it, to accuse that one of filthy lucre is simply wrong. It's called capitalism. Something that even Christians are beginning to hold in contempt. Even though scripture teaches it. Let me know how socialism works for ya. (see, if someone doesn't want to BUY the product, that someone doesn't have to. It's called choice. Unless, of course, elected SERVANTS mandate it...then it's ok, I guess)

[DaveW]

9 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

According to Websters 1828, the meaning of Tribute, en toto:

    "TRIB'UTE, n. [L. tributum, from tribuo, to give, bestow or divide.]
1. An annual or stated sum of money or other valuable thing, paid by one prince or nation to another, either as an acknowledgment of submission, or as the price of peace and protection, or by virtue of some treaty. The Romans made all their conquered countries pay tribute, as do the Turks at this day; and in some countries the tribute is paid in children.
2. A personal contribution; as a tribute of respect.
3. Something given or contributed"

As to the Strong's meaning, that doesn't mean it is the Bible meaning., Again, one must go to the context and see how it is used, and it is NEVER seen as a tax to one's own government. Please look again. Or I would be happy to just put up all the quotes if you'd prefer. Strong's is a good reference but it isn't perfect-the Bible's use of the word is, however. This is why we don't try to use the Greek to fix the KJV English.

BY the way, there are four different Greek words translated as Tribute in the NT. Again, the usage in context should be studied out.

None of which changes anything I stated. But thanks for the smack down. ........

As to there being 4 words translated "tribute", I will point out that the definition I  used was tge specific definition of the specific word used in relation to the passage you referenced earlier. Your definition is a general definition of the english word. So which one is likely to be more relevant? You can decide that for yourself. 

My actual point was about you being transparent - not about whether you were right or wrong. 

You could just have easily said "the other definitions are not relevant to this usage."

But on this guy you are blind - just as Rhonda is blind against.

There is no point discussing this guy with you, because you get ultra defensive.

Which is why I made no comment about him or the US govt etc.

 

Here is my comment on the US govt - I AM GLAD I DON'T HAVE TO VOTE IN THE US ELECTIONS.

Edited June 16, 2016 by DaveW
Added second paragraph.

[DaveW]

And here you go: the FOUR verses which use that particular Greek word, from the passage which was the subject of this point:

Luk 20:22  Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no? 
Luk 23:2  And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King. 
Rom 13:6  For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 
Rom 13:7  Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 
 

Note that in each case it is the word "tribute".

Note further that in two cases it is refers to tribute to Caesar by Jews.

Note still further that the other two verses, referencing one passage and subject, uses the phrase "higher powers" and is written to the Romans, not to the Jews under subjugation to the Romans. 

I have not been incorrect nor misrepresented the facts in any way with what I have presented, in spite of the way you are trying to present me as such.

 

By the way, there are 3 Greek words translated "tribute" in the New Testament, and a further 7 Hebrew words (although I may have lost count whilst looking through all the OT verses), so I am not sure where you got a fourth from. Maybe YOU should do some more study.......

I will however note that NONE of these words in their Strongs definitions carries an inherent meaning of payment ONLY to a conquering power. Does this mean it cannot mean that? No - and the biblical use of many of the words does in fact relay that meaning. But the same words are used to relate payment to authority in many forms INCLUDING GOD. are you suggesting that such payment is because God is a conquering power?

I am fully aware that Strongs is not inspired, but neither may I point out was Webster. And at least Strongs is relating to that specific instance of usage, whereas Webster is relating to a word that it translated from many different words.

 

And I am GREATLY offended by you insinuating that I am trying to CORRECT THE KJV,

That is entirely offensive to me, and also entirely untrue for you to make that accusation - look at what I have actually written and you will see that you are TOTALLY out of line on that.

 

Yours grumpily,

 

Dave.

Edited June 16, 2016 by DaveW

[Ronda]

11 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Somehow I think you wouldn't have liked Paul very much

Wow... comparing the apostle Paul to Hovind in the same light is offensive! Paul was standing for the WORD OF the LORD revealed unto him (Gal 1 tells us he received it of no man, but by Jesus Christ Himself Gal 1:1, and 11-12)
THAT same truth God revealed to Paul is what he was persecuted and IMPRISONED for (a very RIGHTEOUS cause).
So actually I think I WOULD have "liked" Paul very much. I do today! And admire his devotion to the LORD (not to HIMSELF!)
Were it not for Paul, we wouldn't understand grace, the body of Christ, the church/grace age, and the rapture (of course some wrest with that as well).

What Hovind was imprisoned for was FAR DIFFERENT than the word of God, Hovind: "federal court convictions for failing to pay taxes, obstructing federal agents, and structuring cash transactions." (among OTHER infractions of law)
That is NOT a righteous cause and NOT something we should take a stand for as it defies the very word of God!

1 Pet 2:13-16
13 "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;"
14 "Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well."
15 "For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:"

Does His word say "every ordinance of man WE DON'T AGREE WITH?" NO! 
Those who would twist WILL twist. But it can't be read into it literally, and adding to His word is done at one's own peril.

So again... I don't care WHO the man is... I do not worship at man's feet but at the Lord's feet.
No matter if the entire world loves this law-breaker Hovind, my loyalty is not to mankind, not to public opinion, and not to social pressure.
I actually haven't listened to ANY media reports in regard to Hovind, nor did I procure my opinion from what others had to say... not those "against" and not those "for" who falsely say he was a poor "political prisoner".
I looked at the factual documentation and the preponderance of evidence shows he broke the law on numerous occasions.
I have zero sympathy for the man. And to be honest, I find it amazing that people here would defend him as though he did an HONORABLE thing.
Breaking the law (unless it is broken because we are told to sin against God) is NOT an honorable thing!

Does 1 Pet. 2:13-16 mean nothing? The other verses I brought forth... they mean nothing? OR is it that you would prefer to interpret them allegorically?
They don't 'REALLY' mean what they say??? ( I know... just like the 'Jesus is not a door' argument.. He actually IS a 'door'... the only One way, truth, and life... the only entryway into God's presence and further that Rev. 4:1 alludes to Matt. 28:2, John 10:1-2,7,9 and others. I would even say that it's telling that Christ in His glorified/resurrected body showed Himself to the disciples and the DOORS were shut, that Jesus came and stood among them... another allusion found here, He did not need to enter in the door, because He IS the door! Not a door of wood or metal, but a DOOR to God Himself and heaven!).

Gal. 1:10 "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."

The blind devotion shown to Mr. Hovind really shows where ones loyaty lies. God's word? Or Hovinds word? 
(Reminds me of both Jim Bakker and Hilary Clinton "fans"... you can show them the preponderance of evidence but they prefer to remain in folly).
And while it's great that Hovind did prison ministry, the fact is he was IN prison for breaking the law. What kind of testimony is that?
Had he been proclaiming REPENTANCE for his sins while ministering to others, I would then have said HOW WONDERFUL! But he (instead) was denying wrongdoing AND even telling others it's fine to do the same thing... NOT obey the law!

11 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

He went to prison for ten years for non-crimes

It is NOT "non-crimes" to fail to pay taxes, obstruct federal agents, and illegally structure cash transactions (there is a LEGAL way to structure and an ILLEGAL way... he chose the ILLEGAL way because of GREED!)
Everything you said about his employees being 'private subcontractors is FALSE!!! READ the documented evidence (including former employees testimony)! Oh why do I bother.. Prov. 1:7 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Hovind must not have any fear of the Lord because he has thrown out MUCH of God's word in order to line his own greedy pockets. And his supporters are as their blind guide.

1 Pet 2:13-16, as well as Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." 
Just for starters. 
Why does mankind look for a LOOPHOLE in God's word? Either we believe God's word to be true, literal , inerrant, or we do NOT! There is no middle of the road... those who ride both sides of the fence end up with 'barbed wire' in very tender places in the end!

Galatians 6:7 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

Hovind has reaped what he had sown. He had his "barbed wire" moment... the sad thing is that he STILL didn't repent, worse yet, he is leading others to disobey God's word!
No small wonder, as the world is in the perilous last days (2 Tim 3:1-5 and 11) spiraling towards the tribulation, we can see the attitudes mirroring those who will be in the tribulation, they will be facing massive amount of God's wrath and they also will still rebel against God and NOT repent either! (Rev. 9:20, 16:9-11, et al) 
 

[Ronda]

Sister LuAnne, 

9 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

That  "system of authority" is UNDER the Constitution and UNDER we the people. Those in elected office are our SERVANTS and are to obey the Constitution. And, again, that is something that the majority of Americans sadly misunderstand.

While I respectfully agree that the elected are to be SERVANTS of 'we the people' (and I wholeheartedly concur they have become corrupt and are self-serving). We still have to recognize it was 'we the people' who elected this evil man (the majority of 'we the people' also being morally bankrupt now).
As such, the Bible STILL states: "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake" (1 Pet 2:13). ... we COULD try to find a loophole there...  BUT I don't believe God's word shows that we are supposed to.
Those under Roman rule likely didnt agree with the governance over them either, yet God was telling them to obey those laws anyways. Why should we get a pass? I just can't find it in God's word. Sorry, I respectfully disagree.
And I have to ask... do you obey the laws because you fear legal ramifications (what an can do) or do you obey the laws because of what God has said? 
I fear for many who only obey the laws because of what mankind can do to them.
Matter of fact I think the fear of God is lacking in most professing Christians today.

Matt. 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

I have often heard the ONE malefactor on the cross being used as an example of belief/faith.
While this is true, what is rarely ever mentioned is the OTHER malefactor.
What was his biggest problem? He has no FEAR OF GOD! (Luke 23:32-43)
The one malefactor said to the other malefactor who had been mocking Jesus ... "Dost not thou fear God? ..." (v.40)

That's a BIG problem! If a person has no fear of GOD HIMSELF, how then can they even recognize a NEED for salvation or the NEED for a savior?
They surely can't appreciate what Christ has done on their behalf if they first have no fear of God and eternal hellfire!
I know it's not 'politically correct' to speak of HELL these days... many prefer the watered down "skim" milk version... but there is a real need for people to understand WHAT Christ has saved them from!
Eternal damnation in HELL!!! Righteous judgment God has decreed for ALL whom do not believe/accept Christ (John 3:18).
So for some who profess to have believed on Christ for salvation, yet apparently have little to no fear of God... I have to wonder if they themselves have missed the point entirely. 

9 hours ago, HappyChristian said:

And, FWIW, making money off of books one writes or coloring books one creates, etc, is no more filthy lucre than selling vegetables one grows.

And again I respectfully disagree.
Selling produce (or any of the things we have worked honestly for INCLUDING books and dvd's is NOT wrong in and of itself.
Capitalism is the profit of hard work. There is nothing wrong with honest hard work and profit from that!
HOWEVER, It's when people PROFIT off of God's word (worse yet, their SPIN and LOOPHOLES on God's word) that the problem comes in! That is filthy lucre.

"Lucre" originated from a French word, lucre, which itself originated from a Latin word, lucrum, which meant to gain, or to profit. The English word "lucrative" is merely an adjective form of the noun "lucre."
That's a nice capitalistic word... but the implication is WHAT they were profiting FROM. 
God's warns about this in 1 Tim. 3:3, 3:8, Titus 1:7, Titus 1:11, (and others)
So I do NOT hold captialism in contempt by any means... hard work SHOULD "pay off". BUT that does NOT include profiting personally from the giving of God's word.

1 Cor. 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."

Matt. 10:8 "...freely ye have received, freely give".

1 Pet. 5:2 "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind"

While I DO understand that churches have real expenses that must be paid, (and we should ALL be cheerful gvers to the LORD and to the LORD's cause), I do NOT agree that personal profit (over a MODEST salary) should be made on God's word.
I'm sure there are many who would disagree (even here apparently)... but I can't find any scriptural support to show where anyone was told TO profit financially off of God's word in the NT.
Paul even made tents to suport himself during his travelling ministry.
That is type of hard work that should be personally profited off of, NOT in the giving of God's word for personal financial gain... THAT IS filthy lucre.

 

[HappyChristian]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. There is a lot more I could say, but I'm not going to argue - it will profit nothing. You have used verses that, IMO, are quite out of context to the discussion (re: profiting from one's labor) and so, since we both believe what we believe, further belaboring is pointless. 

Have a great day.

[Ukulelemike]

9 hours ago, Ronda said:

And again I respectfully disagree.
Selling produce (or any of the things we have worked honestly for INCLUDING books and dvd's is NOT wrong in and of itself.
Capitalism is the profit of hard work. There is nothing wrong with honest hard work and profit from that!
HOWEVER, It's when people PROFIT off of God's word (worse yet, their SPIN and LOOPHOLES on God's word) that the problem comes in! That is filthy lucre.

"Lucre" originated from a French word, lucre, which itself originated from a Latin word, lucrum, which meant to gain, or to profit. The English word "lucrative" is merely an adjective form of the noun "lucre."
That's a nice capitalistic word... but the implication is WHAT they were profiting FROM. 
God's warns about this in 1 Tim. 3:3, 3:8, Titus 1:7, Titus 1:11, (and others)
So I do NOT hold captialism in contempt by any means... hard work SHOULD "pay off". BUT that does NOT include profiting personally from the giving of God's word.

1 Cor. 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."

Matt. 10:8 "...freely ye have received, freely give".

1 Pet. 5:2 "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind"

While I DO understand that churches have real expenses that must be paid, (and we should ALL be cheerful gvers to the LORD and to the LORD's cause), I do NOT agree that personal profit (over a MODEST salary) should be made on God's word.
I'm sure there are many who would disagree (even here apparently)... but I can't find any scriptural support to show where anyone was told TO profit financially off of God's word in the NT.
Paul even made tents to suport himself during his travelling ministry.
That is type of hard work that should be personally profited off of, NOT in the giving of God's word for personal financial gain... THAT IS filthy lucre.

 

I wonder how much of that 'personal profit' you believe goes into Kent Hovind's pocket. Look at what he does-he travels almost continually, (though not as much right now), and he is working on the new Dinosaur Adventure Land. While I know there are people donating to that, do you suppose that while they donate, he is using all his personal profits to enrich himself, or maybe they're going into financing the project, the ministry. Maybe you can call his pastor and ask what he puts in the plate. He doesn't have a ministry jet, or a limo to drive him around. He had to buy an old beer truck and change the art on it, just to make the move to the new location. The guy lost everything to his son from the old ministry, what Uncle Sam didn't take from them.  When Kent Hovind is seen living an opulent lifestyle like Benny Hinn  or the many TV evangelists out there, or megachurch preachers, then I will agree that he is seeking filthy lucre, but when I know for a fact that he is working on a piece of property for the ministry he does, which has a track record of being very successful in bring people to Christ and teaching them about biblical things, then my assumption is that he is putting most of that money right back into that ministry. Therefore, if he is making money for that, I don't have any issue with it.

[Ronda]

.

15 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

Therefore, if he is making money for that, I don't have any issue with it.

I gathered as much. Jim Bakker had to 'start from scratch' too. He also is fleecing the flock with exorbitantly priced post-trib prepper buckets food (and other such nonsense).As if anyone in the tribulation will be able to pick up multiple buckets of food on the run, should they be fortunate enough to NOT reside in an area where the 1/3 of all fresh water is poisoned, while they are dodging the hundred+ lb. hailstones,  multiple wars, and the one world government tracking down and beheading anyone who refuses the mark. And even though I think it's ridiculous that he (Bakker) IS selling the stuff for 10x it's cost, that IS free-market capitalism. I have much less of a problem with that than I do with those who DO make a personal financial profit off of God's word (and/or their spin on it). 

According to the IRS, Hovind earned $50,000 a year through speaking engagements, and in 2002 alone, CSE sold more than $1.8 million in merchandise. On average, Hovind made bank deposits in excess of $1 million each year, and eventually that grew to about $2 million a year. About half that income went to employees who were salaried or were paid hourly wages. cited from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind (about 1/3 of the way down) On March 1, 1996, Hovind filed a Chapter 13 bankruptcy petition to avoid paying federal income taxes, claiming he was not a citizen of the United States (and therefore not responsible to pay taxes). 

His own personal salary, as well as the salary of his wife and progeny were personal income and he never paid of dime in income tax on that! In 1998, the IRS requested account information after Hovind (HIMSELF) made claims about noncompliance going back to the 1970s on an internet broadcast.  He owed $3.3 million for tax years 1998–2006 alone! (Imagine how many other years were NOT included in those figures). On October 21, 2006, the trial began in which Hovind hoped to convince a jury that his amusement park admission and merchandise sales, over $5 million from 1999 through March 2004 (alone), "belonged to God" and cannot be taxed. After operating expenses,  including reinvestment into more property/buildings AND paying salaried and waged employees, he (and his wife) still made personal income well into 3 digits (if not millions) per year, NONE of which he paid personal income taxes (including FICA- soc. sec and/or medicare).  

And he has shown no repentance for this behavior. He instead is unrepentant, and encourages others to break the law as well. (You apparently don't have a problem with that either). There's really nothing more I myself can say about him (and others LIKE him) There is plenty of factual evidence for proof (but just like Bakker's followers, facts aren't convenient when a person is loyal to another person rather than the facts and rather than God's word). if God Himself isn't dealing with your heart about these problems, there's really nothing else I can say to change your mind.  

[Ukulelemike]

And you trust Wikipedia, the site that anyone can add to, as a trusted source?

 

[Ronda]

Wikipedia? Not particularly. But the links to the actual and factual court documentation (right side of page in boxes throughout lengthy page).. those I DO trust far more than whatever comes out of Hovind's mouth. The fact that he suggests others should also disobey the law (which goes against God's word) also tells me uch more than the court documents. Again, prefer to believe what you want to believe. History has proven there are plenty like that (Bakker's followers are the same ilk... factual evidence means nothing to men-worshipers). You go on defending man to your dying breath I'll go on defending God's word til mine. But rather than go on ad-nauseam on this fleece-flocker Hovind... I'll give the 5 word summary I just gave to someone else... "Have it your way fella"

 

[John81]