Pre-Trib Rapture

[Ukulelemike]

14 hours ago, Alan said:

Revelation 4:1, "After this I looked, and , behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

The trumpet is clearly mentioned. "Reaping" is not mentioned in connection with the coming of Christ for the Church (the Rapture), in 1 Corinthians 15:51 and 52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18  

Alan 

No it is a voice AS a trumpet, not a trumpet.  As for the reaping, Jesus speaks of His people as being like wheat, which is gathered into His barn, as opposed to that tares which are gathered and burned. Interestingly, the term 'ripe' in Rev 14, when speaking of that harvest that Jesus reaps, is a Greek word, xeranio, that means 'dry' or withered, as in the ripening of crops, ie, wheat, which is dry and brown when it is ready to be harvested. In Matt 13, Jesus speaks of the end of the world, and the gathering of the wheat, His people, and the tares, the children of the wicked.  So Jesus DOES speak of the rapture as a reaping, because we will be gathered up to Him.

[Ukulelemike]

10 hours ago, DaveW said:

So Mike, let me get this straight....

you are fitting this event:

 

“1 Corinthians 15:52

(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

 

…..which says “AT THE LAST TRUMP” the "dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" into a space of three chapters of Rev.

 

The seventh trump (which 1 Corinthians makes no reference to the last of seven, just to the last trump) is recorded in Revelation 11:

Revelation 11:15

(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

...then you refer to Rev 14 for the reaping etc

Mike said:

"Rev 4:1-no trumps, no reaping, no physical ascent to heaven, no mention of Jesus in the clouds, noangel's cry; Rev 14-after the last of seven trumps, the finals trumpets mentioned in scripture, cry of an angel, Jesus in the clouds reaping the earth. “

 

Yes, this “cry of an angel, Jesus in the clouds reaping” does happen after the seventh sounding mentioned in Rev 11 – THREE CHAPTERS AFTER.....

 

What happened to “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT the last trump”?

Between the SEVENTH trump and chapter 14 there are nations getting angry, a woman with child, a dragon with seven heads and ten horns, a war in heaven, and we are not even out of chapter 12!!!!!

 

Doesn't sound much like the reaping happening AT the last trump, nor in a moment etc.

 

This is no proof of a relation between the seventh and last trump.

Again, why is the seventh judgement trump the same as the last trump?

Read those three chapters-they aren't written chronologically. So the activities of Rev 14 could easily be immediately after. Again, all we see in Rev is from the vantage point of Heaven, where time clearly does not apply as it does on earth.  The seventh trump is the last trump because there are no more trumps mentioned. The fact that it says later in Rev that the sound of trumpeters shall never again be heard, tells me there are no more trumps. And there is no reason NOT to associate this seventh trump with the great trump of Matt 24:31

14 hours ago, Alan said:

My post stands. It is not confusing to me at all and makes perfect sense. I answered the question concerning the trumpet call(s) after Revelation 14:14 very clearly. My answer was ignored, and not even acknowledged as being correct. Which, I am saddened. 

As I stated previously, in the case of Revelation 14:14-20 and Matthew 24:29-31 the elect is a very clear reference to the nation of Israel and not to the elect chruch. How they can be confused is disheartening to me.

Also, all of my previous posts stand. And, in my estimation, are very clear and are in properly interpreted according to the scriptures.

Alan

Then what IS happening in Rev 14?

 

[DaveW]

Mike, that is simply not a serious argument - that it is seen from heaven and time is different......

There events that happen in the three chapters, some in heaven, some on earth, that MUST NOT BE IGNORED in this consideration.

Rev 11 to 14 is not able to be passed away as "the twinkling of an eye" except by totally ignoring what the Bible actually says.

 

Rev 18

 21  And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast itinto the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

 22  And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

 23  And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

This is the last mention of trumpeters, and it clearly indicates that these things were continuing until this time - trumpeters trumpeting AFTER your last trump.

I cannot believe that you seriously propose that people ignore what the Bible says in favour of your speculation.

[John81]

5 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Mike, that is simply not a serious argument - that it is seen from heaven and time is different......

There events that happen in the three chapters, some in heaven, some on earth, that MUST NOT BE IGNORED in this consideration.

Rev 11 to 14 is not able to be passed away as "the twinkling of an eye" except by totally ignoring what the Bible actually says.

 

Rev 18

 21  And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast itinto the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

 22  And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

 23  And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

This is the last mention of trumpeters, and it clearly indicates that these things were continuing until this time - trumpeters trumpeting AFTER your last trump.

I cannot believe that you seriously propose that people ignore what the Bible says in favour of your speculation.

Isn't this referring to earthly trumpeters rather than heavenly (or angelic)?

[DaveW]

19 minutes ago, John81 said:

Isn't this referring to earthly trumpeters rather than heavenly (or angelic)?

Of course it is, but mike's argument is that the seventh judgement trump is the last trump, but there is nothing I can see that says that is so.

He has constantly said it is the last trump, even making comment about my referencing this verse - so I quoted the verse to show that the seventh trump is not in fact the last trump ever.

The link is in fact more solid and relevant than his link of "seventh trump" and "last trump".

It is his claim,  and he has to prove the link.

Do you have any thoughts on Mike disregarding a three chapter span to make it "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" with the thought that time is different in heaven?

 

[Ukulelemike]

Those three chapters I have seen as parenthetical to the actual events of the tribulation. As for the trumpeters in Rev 18, it is not reasonable to suggest these even apply to the argument, as the last trump will not be from an earthly source.

As for the link, I will seek to make that tonight after work, when I can take the time to put out my points. I don't want to answer flippantly or quickly. So please allow me the time to give an answer. As for my reasoning that the seventh trumpet is THE last trump, is simply because there IS no other trump ever mentioned, in Heaven, in Revelation, in relation to the events of Revelation. We can argue, of course, that it may be different from the 'great trumpet' sounding in Matthew, said to sound after those days of tribulation, and it may well be. Again, allow me please the time to put it together. Remember I am answering everyone, since I am about the only one who holds the position.  Thanks

[DaveW]

6 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Those three chapters I have seen as parenthetical to the actual events of the tribulation. As for the trumpeters in Rev 18, it is not reasonable to suggest these even apply to the argument, as the last trump will not be from an earthly source.

As for the link, I will seek to make that tonight after work, when I can take the time to put out my points. I don't want to answer flippantly or quickly. So please allow me the time to give an answer. As for my reasoning that the seventh trumpet is THE last trump, is simply because there IS no other trump ever mentioned, in Heaven, in Revelation, in relation to the events of Revelation. We can argue, of course, that it may be different from the 'great trumpet' sounding in Matthew, said to sound after those days of tribulation, and it may well be. Again, allow me please the time to put it together. Remember I am answering everyone, since I am about the only one who holds the position.  Thanks

I look forward to your answer, but if you continue down the line of time not being time and of Revelation not being in order, I would urge you to be comprehensive in your proofs.

These are the basic arguments of those who twist Scripture to fit their own ideas, and they love it because it allows them to ignore time and order statements altogether.

 

[Alan]

8 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

. And there is no reason NOT to associate this seventh trump with the great trump of Matt 24:31

That statement is in error. The teaching of the trumpets that I mentioned is entirely correct.

On ‎2016‎年‎6‎月‎5‎日 at 6:57 AM, Alan said:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give here light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heaven shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great trumpet [this is the last trumpet and it is after the seven trumpets], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:29-31

This passage is very clear.

The, "great trumpet' is mentioned after the 7 year Tribulation Period. Not before, not in the middle, but after the tribulation period.

The sign, "of the Son of man in heaven" is a reference to Revelation 14:14

The trumpet call is to call his "elect' which is clearly the Jewish race (please see the scriptural references below).

The coming of Christ for the church, the Rapture, is nowhere in either of these passages. The coming of Christ occurred as I previously discussed it in sufficient detail in Revelation 4:1 The teaching of the Apostle John as the  "sign" for the church is very clear that he is a "type" of the coming of Christ for the church (the Rapture).

May we remind ourselves that the trumpets mentioned in Revelation are for the judgments of the earth, (the seven trumpets), and gathering of the nation of Israel as recoded in Leviticus 23;1-43, 25:9 and Exodus 19:13-19; and Numbers 10:1-13. Please take careful note. In Numbers 10:1-13 the calling of the trumpets was for the gathering of the tribes of Israel and not for any gathering of any Gentile tribe. We see an example of God using the trumpet, from heaven, not on the earth, for the nation of Israel in Exodus 19:10-17 just before the receiving of the 10 Commandments.

The calling of the Jews to the feasts listed in Leviticus 23 were for the Jewish nation of Israel only and not for the Gentiles nor the church. The trumpet call mentioned by Paul the Apostle in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the only trumpet call for the church at any time and for any occasion. The only time in the history of the church, (unless you a Charismatic or some other false prophet), from the beginning of the church age, to the end of the church age, is the "last trump," that will be heard when the Lord Jesus comes in the clouds for the church as typlified by John the Apostle in Revelation 4:1

I would like to remind the brethren that we need to heed the admonition of Paul the Apostle in the matter of the trumpets when he said, "Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God." 1 Corinthians 10:33  

None of the 7 trumpets nor the trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:31, nor in Leviticus, Exodus or Numbers, is for the church.

Alan

 

The events in Revelation 14:14-20 is connected with the nations of the earth and the nation of Israel and has absolutly nothing to do with the church.

Alan

[John81]

7 hours ago, DaveW said:

Of course it is, but mike's argument is that the seventh judgement trump is the last trump, but there is nothing I can see that says that is so.

He has constantly said it is the last trump, even making comment about my referencing this verse - so I quoted the verse to show that the seventh trump is not in fact the last trump ever.

The link is in fact more solid and relevant than his link of "seventh trump" and "last trump".

It is his claim,  and he has to prove the link.

Do you have any thoughts on Mike disregarding a three chapter span to make it "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" with the thought that time is different in heaven?

 

I don't see the ceasing of earthly trumpets having anything to do with the last trump, or any of the heavenly trumps. That's why I was asking to try and see where you were coming from.

I've not yet had time to delve into the time aspect to any real extent. This isn't the first I've heard of the idea of time being different or not even existing in heaven. Unless there is something more certainly pointing to this, which I've not come across yet, it's simply a speculative theory which can't be proven or disproven, as far as I know. Which, in the larger realm of these sort of discussions, isn't uncommon.

[Alan]

9 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Then what IS happening in Rev 14?

Besides what I have briefly stated, I am hesitant to go into a detailed explanation of Revelation 14 due to that this thread was started by John81 for the express purpose of discussing the issue of many people changing their beliefs in the pre-tribulation coming of Christ, the Rapture, to a mid-trib or post-trib position.

And, since the scriptural reasoning that I have already brought out has been casually cast aside, I am wondering if continuing this discussion, or another discussion, is fruitful.

Alan

[DaveW]

19 minutes ago, John81 said:

I don't see the ceasing of earthly trumpets having anything to do with the last trump, or any of the heavenly trumps. That's why I was asking to try and see where you were coming from.

I've not yet had time to delve into the time aspect to any real extent. This isn't the first I've heard of the idea of time being different or not even existing in heaven. Unless there is something more certainly pointing to this, which I've not come across yet, it's simply a speculative theory which can't be proven or disproven, as far as I know. Which, in the larger realm of these sort of discussions, isn't uncommon.

John, by way of explanation, it appears to me that Mike's primary reasoning for the seventh judgement trump being the last trump is because it is the last trump of the seven.

I previously noted that "last" doesn't necessarily mean "last one ever", but can mean "last of a particular set".

Mike insists that it is the last trump ever, so noting these earthly trumps shows that he is wrong. It is the last trump of a particular set. The question is, what set?

[John81]

24 minutes ago, DaveW said:

John, by way of explanation, it appears to me that Mike's primary reasoning for the seventh judgement trump being the last trump is because it is the last trump of the seven.

I previously noted that "last" doesn't necessarily mean "last one ever", but can mean "last of a particular set".

Mike insists that it is the last trump ever, so noting these earthly trumps shows that he is wrong. It is the last trump of a particular set. The question is, what set?

Thank you, I understand the point you are getting at.

[Alan]

On ‎2016‎年‎6‎月‎5‎日 at 7:35 AM, Ukulelemike said:

SO the trumpet is to call for Israel, yet it is also to call the church? Sounds confusing. How can you say it is for one, yet it is clearly used for both, then. 

The listing of the trumpet calls that I mentioned are, and were for, as I stated to the Jews.

I believe that DaveW brought out adequately that there are different sets of trumpets for different reasons.

I see no confusion. Just because God uses different trumpet calls for different reasons does not justify calling it confusion. As one properly divides the scripure into the proper divisions (dispensations), all falls in place properly.

The Trumpet call that is menitoned in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 is not mentioned in the Old Testament (the church was hidden, a mystery, to the prophets; please see Ephesians 3:1-9), and is completely separate. The Trumpet call in 1 Thessalonians 4:15  is for the calling of the church saints, dead and then alive, to meet the Lord Jesus in the air. That blessed hope, Titus 2:13, is the hope of all the saints in the church. The teaching that the church is going through the 7 Year Tribulation Period, or half of it, is no hope at all. That teaching has not one bit of hope in it. In fact, it only brings the relization that we are going through the terror of the Tribulation Period.  The first half (not only the second half), of the 7 year Tribulation Period is a time of terror beyond human comprehension. 

Quite frankly, if the chruch is going through any of the 7 year Tribulation Period, we all might as well start buying as much food, guns, ammunition, become a survialist, and build us a bunker to try and survive the holocaust that is coming. What kind of hope is that? And, if that is the only hope we have we might as well revise, or thow out Titus 2:13 from the KJV.

Alan

Edited June 7, 2016 by Alan
spelling (thrice)

[John Young]

It seems to me that one of the biggest differences in the two possible biblical positions Pre-trib and Mid-trib (also called Post trib/Pre Wrath) is that they hinge on wither or not post resurrection Israel has any existence outside of the Church. Mid-trib believes the nation has been dissolved and as been replaced by the church as one holy house/nation of all saved unto God; Abraham's and Israel's promises being transferred to the "Israel of God"; those faithful of all nations. Pre-trib believes that the nation continues separately through the cultural Jew that will, after the rapture of the church and perhaps after at first following the anti-Christ will one day return to God as a holy nation apart from the previous raptured saints.

The OT saints and several of the early Christian Jews thought that the converts had to join the nation before they could receive the promised Christ. However, Paul early on refuted the need for Gentiles to become part of the Nation of Israel in order to be saved. However he never once stated the Saved Jew had to stop being an Israelite or that Israel (nor any of the other nations for that matter) was replaced by the church. Rather that the Israel and the Genital nations are separate things but both were to be holy unto the LORD (being both saved thru one body) within the household of God (Ephesians 2).

It seems to me, Those who believe the church replaced or is Israel tend to believe in the Mid-trib. Those who see them separate tend to believe in the Pre-trib.

I tend to see them as separate but that only the saved Israelite will receive the promises of their nation, not just any ol' person claiming to be a "Jew". As we know today many claim to be Jews but are not true Jews after the heart and work against the cause of Chrsit. Fortunately, many Jewish individuals are being saved today through faith in Christ and they will be part of the rapured church but many Jews/Israelies will not believe until after the rapture and therefor will not be part of the raptured church. Christ Jesus using that Great tribulation time to purify that nation back to Himself.

6 hours ago, Alan said:

Quite frankly, if the chruch is going through any of the 7 year Tribulation Period, we all might as well start buying as much food, guns, ammunition, become a survialist, and build us a bunker to try and survie the holocaust that is coming. What kind of hope is that? And, if that is the only hope we have we might as well revise, or thow out Titus 2:13 from the KJV. Still cant hurt. After all we may not go through the "Great Tribulation" but we still see that many Christians will still suffer tribulation and great suffering and even death from the wicked. Fortunately, even then, we still have comforting promises for ours. 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Although it would be an interesting side topic on how Christianity aught to prepare themselves for the defense of the innocence from the torment of wicked rulers and other evil groups.

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by John Young

[Invicta]

Innocent