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Pre-Trib Rapture


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You know, I apologize-I am kind of turning this into a "I'm right, you're wrong' thing, which isn't what I wanted to do. I suspect we won't come to an agreement, so maybe as was mentioned above, this is not going to be fruitful, so I have deleted my fairly lengthy post and am going to forego any more on the subject. I don't see it as an issue to fight over-the Lord will come for His when He comes, and I will be pleased when He does.

So for the sake of the love of the brethren and peace of unity, I will close my comments on the subject.

 

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9 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

Quite frankly, if the chruch is going through any of the 7 year Tribulation Period, we all might as well start buying as much food, guns, ammunition, become a survialist, and build us a bunker to try and survive the holocaust that is coming. What kind of hope is that? And, if that is the only hope we have we might as well revise, or thow out Titus 2:13 from the KJV. Of course not, because it would do no good anyways. The Bible says that Satan will fight and overcome the saints, those who are still around. I suspect that when Christ returns there won't really be all that many who are left to be taken up. But a lot to be raised from the dead.

 

Mike, I hate to say it friend but the more you try to explain your stand with this, the more confusing it gets (no offense).

The description of the rapture giving by our Lord in the Gospels paints no picture of death and persecution for us at the catching away. During the initial half of the trib there will be no integration of believers with non believers as the months pass, much less working in the field together or grinding at the mill. Believers will not be employed without the mark. Believers will be hiding and on the run to avoid the mark and unable to be seen in public, buy, sell or anything else (if they like their heads attached to their bodies anyway). And most importantly there will be no believers living on this earth who will not be hiding for their lives at the 42 month point of persecution/beheadings which certainly does not match the description of a carefree and un-attentive goodman of the house, nor does it match believers mingling with unbelievers as Jesus describes below.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I hate to say it Mike but I think you have been sold an expensive bill of goods with this mid idea. That is and I say this jokingly, if you bought that hobby farm out in the sticks because of this idea??? :) 

I have read your postings on it and have prayed on it and I am sorry I just cannot reconcile the evidence you quote with your commentary on it. Not even a little bit. Maybe I am just too dense.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Alan said:

The listing of the trumpet calls that I mentioned are, and were for, as I stated to the Jews.

I believe that DaveW brought out adequately that there are different sets of trumpets for different reasons.

I see no confusion. Just because God uses different trumpet calls for different reasons does not justify calling it confusion. As one properly divides the scripure into the proper divisions (dispensations), all falls in place properly.

The Trumpet call that is menitoned in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 is not mentioned in the Old Testament (the church was hidden, a mystery, to the prophets; please see Ephesians 3:1-9), and is completely separate. The Trumpet call in 1 Thessalonians 4:15  is for the calling of the church saints, dead and then alive, to meet the Lord Jesus in the air. That blessed hope, Titus 2:13, is the hope of all the saints in the church. The teaching that the church is going through the 7 Year Tribulation Period, or half of it, is no hope at all. That teaching has not one bit of hope in it. In fact, it only brings the relization that we are going through the terror of the Tribulation Period.  The first half (not only the second half), of the 7 year Tribulation Period is a time of terror beyond human comprehension. 

Quite frankly, if the chruch is going through any of the 7 year Tribulation Period, we all might as well start buying as much food, guns, ammunition, become a survialist, and build us a bunker to try and survive the holocaust that is coming. What kind of hope is that? And, if that is the only hope we have we might as well revise, or thow out Titus 2:13 from the KJV.

Alan

I'm not arguing we will go through some or all of the 7 years, but I do want to point out I've heard some Baptist pastors say in the event we do go through some portion (even some pre-trib pastors preach that things may be terrible right before the rapture or some aspect of the 7 years is in progress or beginning right before the rapture) of the 7 years they believe it will be similar to how the Hebrews were present during the plagues on Egypt but protected from them (such as when all of Egypt was totally dark but the Hebrews had light).

There are also some who predict or expect things to get so bad prior to the rapture they do need to be survivalists or preppers in order to assure they and their families can survive until the rapture. On a personal level, I know of a lot of pre-trib believers who fit into this category.

Could you, if you have time and are so inclined, show what you mean by the first half of the tribulation period being a "time of terror beyond human comprehension"? I've heard some pre-trib Baptist pastors preach the first half will be peaceful and then the anti-christ will show his true nature from the middle on. I've also heard other variations preached, as well as the view the entire 7 years is terrible.

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3 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

You know, I apologize-I am kind of turning this into a "I'm right, you're wrong' thing, which isn't what I wanted to do. I suspect we won't come to an agreement, so maybe as was mentioned above, this is not going to be fruitful, so I have deleted my fairly lengthy post and am going to forego any more on the subject. I don't see it as an issue to fight over-the Lord will come for His when He comes, and I will be pleased when He does.

So for the sake of the love of the brethren and peace of unity, I will close my comments on the subject.

 

At this point I agree with Ukulelemike.

2 hours ago, John81 said:

I'm not arguing we will go through some or all of the 7 years, but I do want to point out I've heard some Baptist pastors say in the event we do go through some portion (even some pre-trib pastors preach that things may be terrible right before the rapture or some aspect of the 7 years is in progress or beginning right before the rapture) of the 7 years they believe it will be similar to how the Hebrews were present during the plagues on Egypt but protected from them (such as when all of Egypt was totally dark but the Hebrews had light).

There are also some who predict or expect things to get so bad prior to the rapture they do need to be survivalists or preppers in order to assure they and their families can survive until the rapture. On a personal level, I know of a lot of pre-trib believers who fit into this category.

Could you, if you have time and are so inclined, show what you mean by the first half of the tribulation period being a "time of terror beyond human comprehension"? I've heard some pre-trib Baptist pastors preach the first half will be peaceful and then the anti-christ will show his true nature from the middle on. I've also heard other variations preached, as well as the view the entire 7 years is terrible.

John81,

At this point I am hesitant to fully answer this question (it is a good question), as Ukelelemike has closed his comments.

And, from what I have been reading a lot of folks are so concerned about the political aspect of our age, and other factors, that is causing a lot of folks to be prepared to survive national unrest. I do not want to get into that discussion either.

At this time, and probably in this thread, I will not elaborate on my phrase, "time of terror beyond human comprehension," as relating to the first half of the tribulation period. I too have heard from some good preachers that the first half will be peaceful; I am not of that persuasion. I will let that phrase stand for now and if the Lord leads I will pursue it further in another thread. Or, if some other person wants to pursue it further that is fine with me. To pursure it further will require a careful study of the time sequence of Revelation 6,8,9, and the related events; such as  pertaining to the first half as depicted by the ministry of the two prophets (during the first half of the tribulation period), is necessary.

For now, God bless!

Alan

 

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4 minutes ago, Alan said:

At this point I agree with Ukulelemike.

John81,

At this point I am hesitant to fully answer this question (it is a good question), as Ukelelemike has closed his comments.

And, from what I have been reading a lot of folks are so concerned about the political aspect of our age, and other factors, that is causing a lot of folks to be prepared to survive national unrest. I do not want to get into that discussion either.

At this time, and probably in this thread, I will not elaborate on my phrase, "time of terror beyond human comprehension," as relating to the first half of the tribulation period. I too have heard from some good preachers that the first half will be peaceful; I am not of that persuasion. I will let that phrase stand for now and if the Lord leads I will pursue it further in another thread. Or, if some other person wants to pursue it further that is fine with me. To pursure it further will require a careful study of the time sequence of Revelation 6,8,9, and the related events; such as  pertaining to the first half as depicted by the ministry of the two prophets (during the first half of the tribulation period), is necessary.

For now, God bless!

Alan

 

Thank you Alan, I understand your reasoning for this. If, at some point in the future, you do decide to get into that I will still be interested.

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Mike, I am disappointed that you have decided to bow out of the discussion but I understand and appreciate your reasons.

I know that you have not flippantly come to your position and I was genuinely interested in your arguments.

I hope my previous post did not come across as overly aggressive - the intent was to encourage you to be thorough in your presentation, not to dissuade you from presenting your points.

I guess this thread has wavered from the original purpose though.......

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Brother Mike,

I also am a "little disappointed" in your decision to end your contributions to the conversation.  I had intended, as soon as time would have permitted (probably over the next few days), to ask for an opportunity to engage more directly (one-on-one) with you concerning the matter of trumpets and the gathering of saints.  What to do now . . .?

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18 hours ago, wretched said:

 

Mike, I hate to say it friend but the more you try to explain your stand with this, the more confusing it gets (no offense).

The description of the rapture giving by our Lord in the Gospels paints no picture of death and persecution for us at the catching away. During the initial half of the trib there will be no integration of believers with non believers as the months pass, much less working in the field together or grinding at the mill. Believers will not be employed without the mark. Believers will be hiding and on the run to avoid the mark and unable to be seen in public, buy, sell or anything else (if they like their heads attached to their bodies anyway). And most importantly there will be no believers living on this earth who will not be hiding for their lives at the 42 month point of persecution/beheadings which certainly does not match the description of a carefree and un-attentive goodman of the house, nor does it match believers mingling with unbelievers as Jesus describes below.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I hate to say it Mike but I think you have been sold an expensive bill of goods with this mid idea. That is and I say this jokingly, if you bought that hobby farm out in the sticks because of this idea??? :) 

I have read your postings on it and have prayed on it and I am sorry I just cannot reconcile the evidence you quote with your commentary on it. Not even a little bit. Maybe I am just too dense.

 

 

Actually my wife bought the farm, (lol) long before she was a Christian, and before she met me. I have never been of the mindset that if we are here for the tribulation that somehow my farm will protect me. If the beast is empowered by Satan, it isn't as though he doesn't know where we are and we could just hide away unnoticed. For now, we live there because we like being off-grid and not having to pay the power company for power or water, and to able to eat our own food. always liked in the Bible where it said to eat from your own vine and drink from your own cistern

But as I have said I am closing my comments on the subject because it isn't my desire to cause strife or fighting over the issue.

13 hours ago, DaveW said:

Mike, I am disappointed that you have decided to bow out of the discussion but I understand and appreciate your reasons.

I know that you have not flippantly come to your position and I was genuinely interested in your arguments.

I hope my previous post did not come across as overly aggressive - the intent was to encourage you to be thorough in your presentation, not to dissuade you from presenting your points.

I guess this thread has wavered from the original purpose though.......

Not at all.  My reason is not because anyone hurt my feelings or anything like that.

Something I have been working on in my church where I pastor, is trying to get the entire church on one page, doctrinally.  In doing this, I have to recognize that we probably won't agree on EVERYTHING under the sun, so it is necessary to try to bring the concentration first into what I see as the most important things we agree on: Jesus Christ, salvation, the Bible, worldliness, faith, fruit, such things, fundamentals of the faith and living a spiritually prosperous life that will please God. For many years, as much as I have preached, I found after more than 13 years, we still had 'methodists' and 'pentecostals' and 'Lutherans' as members-we generally agreed, but, for instance, some used KJV just because I did, but preferred such and such version-they never got the understanding that there is a reason I used the KJV over the others, and not just a preference. One guy is out there buying and handing out cars to lost alcoholics because he thinks he will help them that way, like a good Christian, and had eternal longsuffering for their poor behavior, but criticized immature believers because they still sometimes acted worldly because they were still learning, and had little patience for them.   

So I began a year-long work to get us all on one page, to have a unified church, in unity in doctrine, and in Jesus Christ. real biblical unity, not the fuzzy ecumenical garbage many were into. In the process, I have lost some because they could not accept that unity, could not accept the doctrines. (And no, the rapture issue never came up).  One family left because of the KJV issue, and that was even before I could begin the actual study on it, (even though I thought they'd leave over tongues). And it has been tough, but I prayed and have come to the conclusion that either, after the year, we are a small but unified church, more fit to begin a better, more effective outreach, or there is no more Bible Baptist Church. Unify or die.

I said all that to say this: This issue is, to me an important issue, but it isn't a hill I will fight and die on. I don't see it as an issue of salvation or necessary godly living. Whether pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib, or anything in between, I recognize that my job as a believer is to live daily for Christ, to preach the gospel, to lift up Christ before men, and the timing of the rapture doesn't change that, nor does it change the urgency of that call. I don't give the gospel because Jesus could come any day, I give the gospel because each man might die before the day ends and never be able to hear again. And if the Lord takes me up before a tribulation begins, or He leaves me here to go through it, doesn't matter. So I would prefer here and now to keep my issue to me, and seek that we might have a better unity in Christ as brethren (and sistren?) and if we are to disagree or discuss, let it be on things worthy of such, that will bring greater spiritual profit to all involved.  

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