Pre-Trib Rapture

[Alan]

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

John was called up to see what was to happen hereafter.

Yes he was. The whole book of Revelation is a revealing of things that are going to happen and the catching up of John to heaven is a "sign" of how, and when in the course of future events, the coming of Christ for the church (hereafter called the Rapture), would take place.

Alan

[Ukulelemike]

5 hours ago, Alan said:

Yes he was. The whole book of Revelation is a revealing of things that are going to happen and the catching up of John to heaven is a "sign" of how, and when in the course of future events, the coming of Christ for the church (hereafter called the Rapture), would take place.

Alan

I disagree. As IFB's we will preach and pound the pulpit as we speak on the importance of context, but we will ignore it when it doesn't agree with what we believe.

The clear context of John's calling up to Heaven was, as was mentioned by Invicta, to be given the revelation of the end. And in fact, he was not called up bodily, but in the spirit. The entire event was for the purpose of giving him a revelation to giv to the world, not as a picture of the rapture at any particular point.It MUST be read into it to see it.

Rev 14 clearly lays out both the reaping by Jesus of His harvest, followed immediately by the gathering of the grapes of the earth, which are cast into the winepress of God's wrath. Two separate harvests, one a reaping of a harvest, the other a gathering of the vine-two clearly separate things. This is the only clear example of Jesus gathering, in the clouds, after the last, (seventh) trump, after an angel has cried with a loud voice from the temple that the time for the harvest has come.

Seriously I don't see how it can be any clearer. Some say it is the reaping of the tribulation saints, but really, that is a much lesser reaping than the primary rapture of the churches. Also, if this was a second reaping, Jesus would know the time and wouldn't need anyone to tell Him the time, whereas Jesus Himself admitted that even the Son didn't know the time, only the Father. 

[DaveW]

I will point out at this juncture that it says "last trump" not "seventh trump".

To make the seventh trump and the last trump coincident in meaning is to read into the bible that which is not there.

The seventh trump is the last of that specific set,  but you must prove that that set is the set of trumps relating to the last trump.

There are trumpeters mentioned after the seventh trump, so one might easily assume that there be "trumps" after the seventh.

Edited June 4, 2016 by DaveW
Phone spelling

[Alan]

3 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Rev 14 clearly lays out both the reaping by Jesus of His harvest, followed immediately by the gathering of the grapes of the earth, which are cast into the winepress of God's wrath. Two separate harvests, one a reaping of a harvest, the other a gathering of the vine-two clearly separate things. This is the only clear example of Jesus gathering, in the clouds, after the last, (seventh) trump, after an angel has cried with a loud voice from the temple that the time for the harvest has come.

 

Let me see if I get this straight.

From what I understand your post, according to you the coming of Christ for the church is after the seventh trumpet. Which, if I further understand you correctly, is after the 7 year Tribulation Period, and, just before His coming as King of Kings. Is this correct?

[Alan]

3 hours ago, DaveW said:

I will point out at this juncture that it says "last trump" not "seventh trump".

To make the seventh trump and the last trump coincident in meaning is to read into the bible that which is not there.

The seventh trump is the last of that specific set,  but you must prove that that set is the set of trumps relating to the last trump.

There are trumpeters mentioned after the seventh trump, so one might easily assume that there be "trumps" after the seventh.

Very Good!

[Invicta]

10 hours ago, DaveW said:

I will point out at this juncture that it says "last trump" not "seventh trump".

To make the seventh trump and the last trump coincident in meaning is to read into the bible that which is not there.

The seventh trump is the last of that specific set,  but you must prove that that set is the set of trumps relating to the last trump.

There are trumpeters mentioned after the seventh trump, so one might easily assume that there be "trumps" after the seventh.

I agree.  We are often told that the seventh trump is the same as the last.  Scripture doesn't connect them as far as I can see.

 

[Ukulelemike]

On 6/4/2016 at 10:45 PM, DaveW said:

I will point out at this juncture that it says "last trump" not "seventh trump".

To make the seventh trump and the last trump coincident in meaning is to read into the bible that which is not there.

The seventh trump is the last of that specific set,  but you must prove that that set is the set of trumps relating to the last trump.

There are trumpeters mentioned after the seventh trump, so one might easily assume that there be "trumps" after the seventh.

Show me another 'trump' of a trumpet mentioned in scripture. Because if there is another, then it will be AFTER the seventh, which then means the rapture will take place AFTER Rev 14.

 

On 6/4/2016 at 9:11 AM, Invicta said:

I agree.  We are often told that the seventh trump is the same as the last.  Scripture doesn't connect them as far as I can see.

 

So, Jesus, we are told, will return for His people after the last trump-meaning the sounding of a trumpet. In scripture, in Revelation, we see seven trumpets sounded, each with something of significance occurring after it. After the sounding of the seventh trumpet, which I call to be THE last trump, we read this:

" And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (Rev 11:15-18)

See what is said after the seventh trumpet: The time has come for His wrath, and time for the judging of the dead, (spiritually dead through His wrath), and time for rewarding His servants the prophets and saints (Judgment seat of Christ), and time to destroy them which destroy the earth (wrath of God).

I contend that very quickly after this trump, the final of the seven, the Lord Jesus draws out His people and God's wrath falls immediately after. Time to judge the lost and reward the saints. These trumps are very significant in end-time prophecy fulfillment, and the seventh the most important because it denotes the beginning of the end-time for judgment to fall upon the lost and rewarding of the saints-how can anyone NOT see this to be the very same 'last trump'? Why mention a last trump in association with Jesus' coming, yet not  show it sounding, while showing other clearly significant trumps?

Rev 4:1-no trumps, no reaping, no physical ascent to heaven, no mention of Jesus in the clouds, no angel's cry; Rev 14-after the last of seven trumps, the finals trumpets mentioned in scripture, cry of an angel, Jesus in the clouds reaping the earth. 

On 6/4/2016 at 1:44 AM, Alan said:

Let me see if I get this straight.

From what I understand your post, according to you the coming of Christ for the church is after the seventh trumpet. Which, if I further understand you correctly, is after the 7 year Tribulation Period, and, just before His coming as King of Kings. Is this correct?

Just before the outpouring of the wrath of God, the seven vials of wrath, which is followed by Jesus' return as King of kings. Not necessarily after 7 years, because we don't know how long the wrath will take to be poured out-could be a literal day, could be a year, but between the reaping seen in Rev 14:14, and Jesus' return (Rev 19), the vials of wrath will be poured out.

[John81]

Excellent discussion and food for thought while digging into the Word!

[Invicta]

1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

See what is said after the seventh trumpet: The time has come for His wrath, and time for the judging of the dead, (spiritually dead through His wrath), and time for rewarding His servants the prophets and saints (Judgment seat of Christ), and time to destroy them which destroy the earth (wrath of God).

I would say that the wrath of God is the last judgment.  

[DaveW]

Mike:

Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

 

This is the last reference to trumpeters that I can find in the Bible. It indicates that up until this time such 'voices' were heard but not after this time.

Note that I am not suggesting that this is the "last trump", just that to say the seventh trump is "the last trump" requires far more Biblical proof than just "it is the last of the seven".

Take for instance the statement "Hamilton won the the last Formula 1 race".

Is this talking about the last one ever?

No, it is talking about the last of a specific set - those run so far this year. I could also say that "Rosberg won the last formula 1 race" but truth of that statement only comes if I define the set of last year's races.

To which set of trumps does the "last trump" belong?

Prove, Biblicaly, that the "last trump" of 1 Cor 15:52 is the last of the seven trumps of Revelation. That passage makes no such link.

Edited June 5, 2016 by DaveW
Phone spelling

[Alan]

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give here light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heaven shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great trumpet [this is the last trumpet and it is after the seven trumpets], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:29-31

This passage is very clear.

The, "great trumpet' is mentioned after the 7 year Tribulation Period. Not before, not in the middle, but after the tribulation period.

The sign, "of the Son of man in heaven" is a reference to Revelation 14:14

The trumpet call is to call his "elect' which is clearly the Jewish race (please see the scriptural references below).

The coming of Christ for the church, the Rapture, is nowhere in either of these passages. The coming of Christ occurred as I previously discussed it in sufficient detail in Revelation 4:1 The teaching of the Apostle John as the  "sign" for the church is very clear that he is a "type" of the coming of Christ for the church (the Rapture).

May we remind ourselves that the trumpets mentioned in Revelation are for the judgments of the earth, (the seven trumpets), and gathering of the nation of Israel as recoded in Leviticus 23;1-43, 25:9 and Exodus 19:13-19; and Numbers 10:1-13. Please take careful note. In Numbers 10:1-13 the calling of the trumpets was for the gathering of the tribes of Israel and not for any gathering of any Gentile tribe. We see an example of God using the trumpet, from heaven, not on the earth, for the nation of Israel in Exodus 19:10-17 just before the receiving of the 10 Commandments.

The calling of the Jews to the feasts listed in Leviticus 23 were for the Jewish nation of Israel only and not for the Gentiles nor the church. The trumpet call mentioned by Paul the Apostle in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the only trumpet call for the church at any time and for any occasion. The only time in the history of the church, (unless you a Charismatic or some other false prophet), from the beginning of the church age, to the end of the church age, is the "last trump," that will be heard when the Lord Jesus comes in the clouds for the church as typlified by John the Apostle in Revelation 4:1

I would like to remind the brethren that we need to heed the admonition of Paul the Apostle in the matter of the trumpets when he said, "Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God." 1 Corinthians 10:33  

None of the 7 trumpets nor the trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:31, nor in Leviticus, Exodus or Numbers, is for the church.

Alan

 

Edited June 5, 2016 by Alan
spelling & one small phrase (church age)

[Alan]

2 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Rev 4:1-no trumps, no reaping, no physical ascent to heaven, no mention of Jesus in the clouds, no angel's cry; Rev 14-after the last of seven trumps, the finals trumpets mentioned in scripture, cry of an angel, Jesus in the clouds reaping the earth. 

Revelation 4:1, "After this I looked, and , behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

The trumpet is clearly mentioned. "Reaping" is not mentioned in connection with the coming of Christ for the Church (the Rapture), in 1 Corinthians 15:51 and 52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18  

Alan 

Edited June 5, 2016 by Alan
spelling

[Ukulelemike]

30 minutes ago, Alan said:

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give here light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heaven shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great trumpet [this is the last trumpet and it is after the seven trumpets], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:29-31

This passage is very clear.

The, "great trumpet' is mentioned after the 7 year Tribulation Period. Not before, not in the middle, but after the tribulation period.

The sign, "of the Son of man in heaven" is a reference to Revelation 14:14

The trumpet call is to call his "elect' which is clearly the Jewish race (please see the scriptural references below).

The coming of Christ for the church, the Rapture, is nowhere in either of these passages. The coming of Christ occurred as I previously discussed it in sufficient detail in Revelation 4:1 The teaching of the Apostle John as the  "sign" for the church is very clear that he is a "type" of the coming of Christ for the church (the Rapture).

May we remind ourselves that the trumpets mentioned in Revelation are for the judgments of the earth, (the seven trumpets), and gathering of the nation of Israel as recoded in Leviticus 23;1-43, 25:9 and Exodus 19:13-19; and Numbers 10:1-13. Please take careful note. In Numbers 10:1-13 the calling of the trumpets was for the gathering of the tribes of Israel and not for any gathering of any Gentile tribe. We see an example of God using the trumpet, from heaven, not on the earth, for the nation of Israel in Exodus 19:10-17 just before the receiving of the 10 Commandments.

The calling of the Jews to the feasts listed in Leviticus 23 were for the Jewish nation of Israel only and not for the Gentiles nor the church. The trumpet call mentioned by Paul the Apostle in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the only trumpet call for the church at any time and for any occasion. The only time in the history of the church, (unless you a Charismatic or some other false prophet), from the beginning of the church age, to the end of the church age, is the "last trump," that will be heard when the Lord Jesus comes in the clouds for the church as typlified by John the Apostle in Revelation 4:1

I would like to remind the brethren that we need to heed the admonition of Paul the Apostle in the matter of the trumpets when he said, "Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God." 1 Corinthians 10:33  

None of the 7 trumpets nor the trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:31, nor in Leviticus, Exodus or Numbers, is for the church.

Alan

 

SO the trumpet is to call for Israel, yet it is also to call the church? Sounds confusing. How can you say it is for one, yet it is clearly used for both, then. 

As for the elect, despite that Jesus is speaking to Jews, they were also the first believers, and the term "elect" could biblically refer to NT believers as much as OT believers.Besides, to say that AFTER the great tribulation , that Jesus will gather the Jews from the four corners of Heaven doesn't make sense-most will have already been gathered, and it appears that it will be those in Jerusalem that will witness His return and mourn, and the  remnant will be saved. I am not seeing any gathering of the Jews, BUT when the rapture occurs, they will be gathered from the four corners of the earth, the elect of Christ.

[Alan]

My post stands. It is not confusing to me at all and makes perfect sense. I answered the question concerning the trumpet call(s) after Revelation 14:14 very clearly. My answer was ignored, and not even acknowledged as being correct. Which, I am saddened. 

As I stated previously, in the case of Revelation 14:14-20 and Matthew 24:29-31 the elect is a very clear reference to the nation of Israel and not to the elect chruch. How they can be confused is disheartening to me.

Also, all of my previous posts stand. And, in my estimation, are very clear and are in properly interpreted according to the scriptures.

Alan

Edited June 5, 2016 by Alan
spelling

[DaveW]

So Mike, let me get this straight....

you are fitting this event:

 

“1 Corinthians 15:52

(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

 

…..which says “AT THE LAST TRUMP” the "dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" into a space of three chapters of Rev.

 

The seventh trump (which 1 Corinthians makes no reference to the last of seven, just to the last trump) is recorded in Revelation 11:

Revelation 11:15

(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

...then you refer to Rev 14 for the reaping etc

Mike said:

"Rev 4:1-no trumps, no reaping, no physical ascent to heaven, no mention of Jesus in the clouds, noangel's cry; Rev 14-after the last of seven trumps, the finals trumpets mentioned in scripture, cry of an angel, Jesus in the clouds reaping the earth. “

 

Yes, this “cry of an angel, Jesus in the clouds reaping” does happen after the seventh sounding mentioned in Rev 11 – THREE CHAPTERS AFTER.....

 

What happened to “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT the last trump”?

Between the SEVENTH trump and chapter 14 there are nations getting angry, a woman with child, a dragon with seven heads and ten horns, a war in heaven, and we are not even out of chapter 12!!!!!

 

Doesn't sound much like the reaping happening AT the last trump, nor in a moment etc.

 

This is no proof of a relation between the seventh and last trump.

Again, why is the seventh judgement trump the same as the last trump?