Pre-Trib Rapture

[John81]

Friday Church News Notes

May 27, 2016, Volume 17, Issue 22

PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE DOCTRINE IN DECLINE (Friday Church News Notes, May 27, 2016, www.wayoflife.org, fbns@wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143) - According to a new survey, only 28% of preachers 45 years old and younger hold to a Pre-tribulation Rapture. This compares to 36% of preachers overall.  The survey of 1,000 pastors was done by Lifeway Research. Less than half believe the Antichrist is a literal figure who will arise in the future. Of Baptist pastors, 75% believe in a literal Antichrist; of Lutherans 29%, of Methodists 28%, and of Presbyterian/Reformed 31%. 

[Alan]

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart  from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." 1 Timothy 4:1

Just about every biblical doctrine, including prophecy, is under attack. Many saints, and ministers, are departing from the faith, by the hordes of false teachers, a-millenialists, liberal ministers, mockers of the IFB churches, and the CCC movement.

[Alan]

P.S.

After commenting on John81's post I read today's article (a booklet), from Lighthouse Trails Research called, "Remaining Faithful Through it All." I think the following verses that that quote are appropriate with this discussion on many pastors loosing, or never having in the first place, belief, or faith, in a pre-tribulation rapture.

We Are to Contend For the Faith
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude 1:3)

We Are to Fight the Good Fight of Faith
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. (1Timothy 6:12)

We Are to Faithfully Watch For His Coming
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. (Matthew 24:42-46)

We Are to Keep the Faith
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. (2 Timothy 4:7)

Alan

 

[Invicta]

Brother Alan.

With all due respects, all those verses are concerning salvation.  The truth is no one, Baptist or others believed in the PTR before the 1820s

[Alan]

On ‎2016‎年‎5‎月‎28‎日 at 6:38 AM, Alan said:

P.S.

After commenting on John81's post I read today's article (a booklet), from Lighthouse Trails Research called, "Remaining Faithful Through it All." I think the following verses that that quote are appropriate with this discussion on many pastors loosing, or never having in the first place, belief, or faith, in a pre-tribulation rapture.

We Are to Contend For the Faith
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude 1:3)

We Are to Fight the Good Fight of Faith
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. (1Timothy 6:12)

We Are to Faithfully Watch For His Coming
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. (Matthew 24:42-46)

We Are to Keep the Faith
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. (2 Timothy 4:7)

Alan

 

Invicta,

1. The first part of Jude 3 is indeed speaking of salvation, but, the second half of Jude 3 is speaking of the other doctrines of the faith.

2. 1 Timohty 6:12 is referring to all of the doctrines of the scriptures; which not only includes salvation but prophecy as well.

3. The Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:42-46 is not referring to salvation but to the doctrine of His Second Coming both for the church and when He comes in Revelation 19:11-21

4. In 2 Timothy 4:7 the apostle Paul is not just talking about salvation he is talking about all of the doctrines, including prophecy, of the scriptures.

 

2 hours ago, Invicta said:

Brother Alan.

With all due respects, all those verses are concerning salvation.  The truth is no one, Baptist or others believed in the PTR before the 1820s

And, as far as the pre-tribulation rapture of the chruch is concerned, the bible clearly teaches it and there are some pre-1820's church authorities that have brought out this in their writings. The problem is that some folks twist the history of these men, will not accept them, ignore them, and have revised church history.

I will give you, and the brethren, one example: Ephrem the Syrian, ca. 306-373, clearly taught a pre-tribulation coming of Christ for the chruch. On the last post in the Revelation Study, I included the PDF file (free of charge), that included, on page 1 in the Introduction, a note referring to Ephrem the Syrian. Here is the link to that last posting.

The statement that you made, "The truth is no one, Baptist or others believed in the PTR before the 1820s," is not historically accurate and is perpetuating an historical untruth. And, in the case of a doctrine, the bible is our standard and not a reliance on historical confirmation.

Alan

 

Edited May 29, 2016 by Alan
spelling (twice)

[DaveW]

2 hours ago, Invicta said:

Brother Alan.

With all due respects, all those verses are concerning salvation.  The truth is no one, Baptist or others believed in the PTR before the 1820s

Invicta with this lie again, which he clearly knows is a lie because it has been shown previously in discussions in which he was involved to be a lie and yet he continues repeat it KNOWING it is a lie.

How dishonest is this man?

 

[John81]

12 minutes ago, Alan said:

Invicta,

1. The first part of Jude 3 is indeed speaking of salvation, but, the second half of Jude 3 is speaking of the other doctrines of the faith.

2. 1 Timohty 6:12 is referring to all of the doctrines of the scriptures; which not only includes salvation but prophecy as well.

3. The Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:42-46 is not referring to salvation but to the doctrine of His Second Coming both for the church and when He comes in Revelation 19:11-21

4. In 2 Timothy 4:7 the apostle Paul is not just talking about salvation he is talking about all of the doctrines, including prophecy, of the scriptures.

 

And, as far as the pre-tribulation rapture of the chruch is concerned, the bible clearly teaches it and there are some pre-1820's church authorities that have brought out this in their writings. The problem is that some folks twist the history of these men, will not accept them, ignore them, and have revised church history.

I will give you, and the brethren, one example: Ephrem the Syrian, ca. 306-373, clearly taught a pre-tribulation coming of Christ for the chruch. On the last post in the Revelation Study, I included the PDF file (free of charge), that included, on page 1 in the Introduction, a note referring to Ephrem the Syrian. Here is the link to that last posting.

The statement that you made, "The truth is no one, Baptist or others believed in the PTR before the 1820s," is not historically accurate and is perpetuating an historical untruth. And, in the case of a doctrine, the bible is our standard and not a reliance on historical confirmation.

Alan

 

Alan,

I appreciate your effort to provide biblical responses to questions. Doing so is infinitely better, and more productive, than the often "I'm right, you're wrong" approach often seen. There is no edification for anyone with the latter, but the potential for learning and growth with the former. Thank you.

[DaveW]

When a liar lies a lie that he knows is a lie, there is no want in his heart to learn and grow, only to corrupt others and lead them astray.

In such cases warning is necessary, especially since in this case a brief explanation has already been given by another member.

It is right to make it plain that such a one is deliberately and knowingly lying so that the unwary are not inclined to accept his false teaching in any way.

He has shown by his repeated lies on this matter that he has no interest in the truth in this issue.

 

 

[Salyan]

Thank you for the warning, DaveW. I'd like to redirect discussion back to the topic now, please.

[John81]

Just a quick note before return to topic: DaveW, after noticing your last post followed mine, and I now see you had a post between mine and Alan's, I can see where you or others may somehow see my post as not only pertaining to Alan's post (which I was commenting upon) but as touching upon your post as well. So, to be clear, my post was only in reference to Alan's post as I had not even seen or read DaveW's post at that time.

Back to topic:

I'm encountering more Christians all the time who have either moved away from a pre-trib position or are seriously questioning the pre-trib position. Thus far, most I've spoken with who have changed position have moved to a mid-trib rapture position. That said, I'm now often encountering those who are not coming to a new position, but rather deciding there is no air-tight view so there is no need to be dogmatic about a specific end time position.

Other than a few who have changed position seeming to take their walk with Christ a little more seriously now, I don't see any change among the others as to their daily lives.

[Alan]

3 hours ago, John81 said:

I'm encountering more Christians all the time who have either moved away from a pre-trib position or are seriously questioning the pre-trib position. Thus far, most I've spoken with who have changed position have moved to a mid-trib rapture position. That said, I'm now often encountering those who are not coming to a new position, but rather deciding there is no air-tight view so there is no need to be dogmatic about a specific end time position.

I've noticed this also.  I do not agree with those who now accept the mid-tribulation rapture. I see it very clear that the whole 7 Tribulation period is a time of the wrath of God on the whole face of this earth. That the two two prophets caught up in Revelation 11 (at the 3 1/2 year mark), do not represent the church.

Revelation 11:12 plainly states that the whole world watch as the two prophets are risen up. "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them. Come up hither. and they ascended in a clould; and their enemies behold them."   When the Lord Jesus comes in the clouds for the church the world does not see us rise up. The church is taken out of this world as a thief takes out the jewels in a house.

There are other obvious scriptural reasons why the coming of christ for the church (the Rapture), occurs as usually believed as "signified" by the Apostle John in 4:1.

Alan

[John81]

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Revelation 4:1

Is this referring to the rapture or simply to John's catching up to receive the revelation? I've heard pre-trib rapture preachers which teach different views on this.

[Alan]

4 minutes ago, John81 said:

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Revelation 4:1

I clearly see this as the coming of Christ for the church as taught by Paul the Apostle in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15: 51-54. As the Apostle John is caught up into heaven he receives the rest of the Revelation concerning the events after the Rapture.

Please remember something very important. The Apostle John was a prophet from, and to, the church. The Lord Jesus gave John these commandments:

1.  Revelation 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." The Apostle John was a sign to the church; the two prophets in Revelation 11 to the Jews. 

Hosea 12:10 states, "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets."

God used the prophets in the Old Testament by speaking to them, giving them visions, and using them as "similitudes," or a 'type,' or a 'sign,' or a 'picture.'

God used the Apostle John in the New Testament, to the churches by speaking to him, giving him visions, and using him as a similitude, or a 'type,' or a 'sign,' or a 'picture.'   

 2. "Unto the the angel of the church of Ephesus write; ... " Revelation 2:1 

3. "John to the seven churches which are in Asia..." Revelation 1:4

4. "... What hou seest, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia..." Revelation 1:11

5. "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." Revelation 3:22

Immediately after John pens these words, in Revelation 4:1 we hear these words, "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." To the church, not to the Jews, nor to the events of the 7 Trumpets to come, this trumpet is the trumpet that the church will hear, hence, "the last trump," and is the trumpet spoken by Paul in 1 thessalonians 4:16 and "the last trump," as spoken by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52

Brethren, the Apostle John is the prophet to the church and he is a similitude, or a 'sign,' or a  'type,' or a 'picture,' of the church being caught up to heaven in Revelation 4:1

Glory Hallelujah!!!! The church is looking for Jesus not the anti-christ.

Alan

 

[John81]

Alan,

Thank you for the explanations and Scripture references.

I do believe the church should be looking for the coming of Jesus rather than the anti-christ, but unfortunately I encounter far more Christians (mostly pre-trib rapture folks) trying to figure out who the anti-christ is.

[Invicta]

On 5/30/2016 at 11:36 PM, John81 said:

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Revelation 4:1

Is this referring to the rapture or simply to John's catching up to receive the revelation? I've heard pre-trib rapture preachers which teach different views on this.

John was called up to see what was to happen hereafter.