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That said' date=' I do believe that a person who does not sense the convicting work of the Holy Spirit in his life should question whether or not he is truly a child of God (Heb. 12). It's not JUST an emotion, or feeling. [b']It's the real, live convicting, chastening hand of God that all believers experience.

If I had been counseling the person described in the OP, I would have asked him more questions and made fewer assumptions. Questions like, "What do you mean that you don't "feel sorry" for your sin?" It is a mistake to assume that a person who describes himself as not "feeling sorry" for his sin is definitely not a believer. More probing questions should be asked, and the Scripture should be opened to help shed light on the situation. The answer to this person's problem cannot be arrived at in a short, trite, glib conversation.


Very well said, Annie. I highlighted two areas.

The "Fruit of the Spirit" as seen in (Galations 5) and other scriptures in the Bible... begin fresh in a "New Christian's" life. A change should be seen in the sinner's life. I will use "cursing" as an example. A new Christian will feel sorrow when they say a curse word. If that sin is something that they have had a problem with? Yes, when they say a curse word, then... they will be convicted (convinced) of that. When one feels sorry for what they have done (sin) is when a new life begins. And, as Annie said... "Scripture should opened to shed light on the situation." The person needs to see the Word of God and hear those words, as well. Spiritual growth should begin to take hold of that person's life. Sadly, many people "claim" salvation... yet, they are not continuing in Bible-believing churches. Discipleship begins at that point.

Salvation:

1) Realize that they are a sinner... and be willing to turn from their sin (repent).

2) Place your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.

St Luke 13:3... I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish. King James Bible "The Words of Jesus Christ"

In His service ~

Molly
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What is regarding iniquity? It is NOT being sorry for it. It is impossible to to truly understand sin and NOT be sorry for it and still get saved at that point.

I think I understand what you're saying...but I think you might be confusing a "position" of mind with an emotion. I don't mean to be nitpicky, but I do believe it is possible for a person to view sin correctly (as something that is wicked and that is keeping him from heaven and fellowship with God) and repent of that sin in humility without feeling (as the OP asked) a "specific amount" of remorse as a requirement for salvation. I'm not saying the remorse isn't there...just that it's not what we base our salvation experience on at all. We shouldn't be overly concerned about whether, at the moment of salvation, we had the "right amount" of remorse. I do agree that a person who never feels any remorse for sin is not close to God's heart. But I've found, when counseling people about assurance of salvation, it is often the most tender people who are concerned that they "never feel sorry" for their sin, and therefore must not be saved. What these people are wanting to trust in, without realizing it, is their own sorrow instead of the finished work of Christ. They have an inordinate focus on "how sorry/not sorry they have been" for their sins, when that is not the point of salvation at all. Sorrow is merely the byproduct of God's conviction. Some feel sorrow very deeply, shedding buckets of tears. Some are indeed "sorrowful" over their sin, but they express it differently.

For example, three of my fairly young children have made professions of faith. I've walked them through the doctrines and truths about sin and salvation, and made sure they understood them, and I truly believe each one has been saved. They understood and confessed their need for salvation (that they were sinners) and accepted Christ's sacrifice, believing on Him alone for forgiveness and salvation. None of them cried at all; I don't think that at age five they really understood all of the implications of their sin...how deeply it hurt Christ on the cross, how it affects their hearts, etc. They didn't know enough to be "that sorry." But as they've grown in Christ, they have begun developing His mind toward sin, and have expressed the kind of frustration/remorse over sin that Paul describes in Romans 7. But they didn't have this remorse at the moment of salvation.

I think it is dangerous and wrongheaded to "require" a certain amount of an emotion like remorse for salvation. I'm not saying that's what is going on here, but it seems to be tiptoeing toward this territory.
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I think that the other posters yesterday did a good job of answering the question. I didn't necessarily take the OP question to mean an emotional outpouring like you did. I took it to mean that there are different versions of being "sorry"--like I tried to show with my kids. I guess I didn't do a very good job of that. Yes, I believe that we should put our faith in God's Word and the finished work of Christ.....not our feelings.

As a sidenote, I had a grandfather of a little boy about 8yrs. want me to sit down with his grandson during children's church and share the Gospel with him since I was a helper to the main teacher. I did so. I was surprised to find that the little boy had perfect knowledge about how to be saved, but was not. He reiterated to me the Gospel and told me that he wanted to go to heaven, he knew that he'd committed sin and that it was "wrong" even. He told me that someday maybe he'd pray and get saved...........but not today. (and he was very adamant about that) What seemed to be missing was, even though he knew sin was "wrong" (most likely because someone taught him it was) he did not see that sin the way God sees it. When I think of being sorry for our sin, I think of us needing to see that sin the way God does, and when we do......it causes us to repent of it. Did I make any more sense this time? ( :puzzled: Probably not)
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But I've found, when counseling people about assurance of salvation, it is often the most tender people who are concerned that they "never feel sorry" for their sin, and therefore must not be saved.


I can agree with that. You are correct that is often the case. When dealing with such individuals it is usually easy to discern if this is the case or not. As you say they often are feeling guilty over their failures and are not submitting to the righteousness of God. Since they are hanging on to their guilt instead of giving it over to the Lord they may begin to question their salvation. At such a point it is good to remind them that Christ said he was sent to heal the brokenhearted and that extreme pain and guilt over sin is more an evidence of salvation than an evidence of being lost. The pain from sin is a form of Gods chastening for the believer and an incentive to live a more Holy life.

Two more verses on the subject.

Psalm 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.


I think it is dangerous and wrongheaded to "require" a certain amount of an emotion like remorse for salvation. I'm not saying that's what is going on here, but it seems to be tiptoeing toward this territory.


I didn't cry when I was saved, and I am more often accused of showing no emotion than showing to much, all I am saying is that a person must understand and have sorrow for their sinful condition before their heart is turned to God and he can save them. Sorrow does not always equal tears or visible emotion, but sorrow for sin is a important part of repentance, or the heart turning to God. The greatest commandment is to love the Lord God with all our hearts. Christ said the whole law was centered around that commandment. Love is partially an emotion, and partially a choice. Love without any emotion isn't true love at all, it is dead. The same is true of repentance and sorrow. Partially emotion, partially choice. If you make it all emotion it is incomplete, but it is also incomplete if you leave it at a mere mental agreement. The heart must believe, and heart belief is both mental and emotional.
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That is why God said even the prayers of those who are rejecting his word are an abomination.


What does this mean? That the prayers of the unsaved are nevertheless an abomination or that it is especially an abomination for an unsaved person to pray, like it is said that an unbeliever taking communion is especially an offence?
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What does this mean? That the prayers of the unsaved are nevertheless an abomination or that it is especially an abomination for an unsaved person to pray, like it is said that an unbeliever taking communion is especially an offence?


al - Prov. 28:9 says, "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination." I don't see there that it is just the unsaved! It is anyone who rejects God's Word!
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What does this mean? That the prayers of the unsaved are nevertheless an abomination or that it is especially an abomination for an unsaved person to pray, like it is said that an unbeliever taking communion is especially an offence?





Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

This verse is teaching that when people, saved or unsaved, are choosing willfully to reject or ignore what God has said in the scriptures that puts them at such "odds" with God that even their prayers are a sin until they are willing to repent and stop turning away their ear from hearing his law. It is not teaching that the prayer of one that is choosing to turn away from hearing the law is an extra special abomination above all other sins he commits, but instead that everything that person does is abominable to God and that God will not listen to them until they are willing to listen to him. Hebrews 11:6 teaches that God cannot be pleased without faith in him and obviously those who are willfully rejecting scripture are not showing faith. Romans 14:23 teaches that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Therefore, since those who are choosing to reject his word are not showing faith and are calling God a liar by rejecting his word, everything they do becomes a sin before God. We don't tend to think that way, we tend to think of the lost or those believers who are willfully rejecting some scriptures because they don't want to surrender to God as able to do both good and bad things, but that isn't how God sees it. God sees anyone whose heart is in willful rebellion against his word as living a completely wicked and sinful life. That doesn't mean if that person has been saved previously they are not still justified before God through Christ, but that is a different topic.

Another verse with a similiar teaching to Proverbs 28:9 is this:

Proverbs 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

First this verse condemns things that many other scriptures condemn, but then it adds "the plowing of the wicked". As is the case with Proverbs 28:9, this verse is to show that when a person is in a wrong relationship with God everything, even the "good" things(like honest labor) that person does is sin to God.
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As a sidenote' date=' I had a grandfather of a little boy about 8yrs. want me to sit down with his grandson during children's church and share the Gospel with him since I was a helper to the main teacher. I did so. I was surprised to find that the little boy had perfect knowledge about how to be saved, but was not. He reiterated to me the Gospel and told me that he wanted to go to heaven, he knew that he'd committed sin and that it was "wrong" even. He told me that someday maybe he'd pray and get saved...........but not today. (and he was very adamant about that) What seemed to be missing was, even though he knew sin was "wrong" (most likely because someone taught him it was) he did not see that sin the way God sees it. When I think of being sorry for our sin, I think of us needing to see that sin the way God does, and when we do......it causes us to repent of it. Did I make any more sense this time? ( Probably not)[/quote']

Absolutely, you make perfect sense to me. Well done!
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Absolutely, you make perfect sense to me. Well done!


Acts 24:25
And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

You can experience the conviction of the Holy Ghost, fear Hell, know you are a sinner, and know that God is good and righteous and still go to Hell.....because you are unwilling to submit to God. That's why people put it off, they are unwilling to submit. Praying that this little boy comes to the end of himself soon, before he ruins his life with sin.
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Sorry for the confusion' date=' my intent was that I agree, we need to see sin the way God does.[/quote']


Yes! Although, b/c we are sinners whether saved or lost? God doesn't clasify sin the way human beings do. I have heard it said: "God does not categorize sin and does not put it into a file cabinet like we do." He sees it as all the same thing. That is why His only son died on a cruel Roman cross. He died for ALL of the sins of the world. When... Jesus cried out for help to His Father in heaven? You know... "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" The Father turned his back - in the end - and couldn't look upon His only son, because the sins put upon Jesus Christ - on the cross of Calvary - were too horrific to His Father in heaven. All of the sins of the world were put on the Lamb of God... Jesus Christ.

The Gospel According to Luke 4:4... And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, THAT MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT BY EVERY WORD OF GOD. "Satan Tempts Jesus" King James Bible

In Christ Jesus ~

Molly
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That is why His only son died on a cruel Roman cross. He died for ALL of the sins of the world. When... Jesus cried out for help to His Father in heaven? You know... "My God' date=' My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" The Father turned his back - in the end - and couldn't look upon His only son, because the sins put upon Jesus Christ - on the cross of Calvary - were too horrific to His Father in heaven.[/quote']

Sorry for being too picky here, but I was always taught that Jesus was quoting scripture when he cried: "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

When a person dies on the cross, it is slow b/c you drown to death. Your lungs fill up and you suffocate. Making it very hard to breath, let alone speak. And here we see Jesus, who is near death/suffocation... and he quotes Psalms 22. He wants those around him to understand he is fulfilling scripture, but he has little breath in him. So he quotes just the first line of Psalm 22. And since any good Jew had scripture memorized, they would easily see the link between this verse and what Jesus had just done and what he will do.
Check out Psalm 22:15-18 for a great similarity!
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You are 100% right Julie! It is scripture. I just didn't put the verses down. :) Yes... the crucification of Jesus Christ was exactly how you described it. You are not being "too picky." Many Christians have to be told this; however - you took Psalm 22:15-18... and gave a great similarity. This proves that the Bible is "full circle" as I like to call it. The answers are there for both the Jew and the Gentile.

God Bless,

Molly
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You are right, Julie, He was quoting from Psalm 22 - Psalm 22 is part of a tio that speaks of Christ: Psalm 22 ~ the Cross; Psalm 23 ~ the Crook; Psalm 24 ~ the Crown.

But He wasn't merely quoting the first line, just to show He was fulfilling scripture. God had turned His back on His only begotten Son because of all of the sins of the world being on Him. God cannot look on sin - even when it was His Son carrying them.
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But He wasn't merely quoting the first line' date=' just to show He was fulfilling scripture. God had turned His back on His only begotten Son because of all of the sins of the world being on Him. God cannot look on sin - even when it was His Son carrying them.[/quote']

Hello again HappyChristian!
Is not Jesus God?

I believe in One God. Not 3. Therefore it is hard for me to think God can turn his back on himself.
God is carrying the sins willingly, and he planed it that way, He wanted to, out of love for us. Everything he does is out of love, so even taking on our sins is such a Great act of love. Not one that someone as powerful as God could turn his back on. God is limited by nothing, absolutely nothing. Sin has no effect on God, he is far greater than it.

I'll have to look it up, but I was thinking that scripture even says that Jesus' accusers pointed out that when Jesus quoted this scripture, He must believe God has turned his back, but that the followers of Christ denied this belief. Not sure yet where that is...
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