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A scenario my husband recently heard about. This was from a conservative.:

Person: I know I am not saved because I do not feel sorry for the ?sins? I commit. How sorry would I need to feel?


Preacher: ?Being sorry has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. It is an instantaneous event. When you believe/trust it is complete. Later on sanctification occurs where you become more Christ like and change your ways but being saved doesn?t remove the sin desires from us?.

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Lack of sorrow indicates lack of repentence ("godly sorrow worketh repentance"). The pastor's last statement is partly correct - all of our sinful desires aren't removed at salvation, but we have the Holy Spirit inside us to begin the work of making us more like Christ. But he definitely didn't help that person!!!!

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Lack of sorrow indicates lack of repentence ("godly sorrow worketh repentance"). The pastor's last statement is partly correct - all of our sinful desires aren't removed at salvation' date=' but we have the Holy Spirit inside us to begin the work of making us more like Christ. But he definitely didn't help that person!!!![/quote']

No, he obviously didn't help him at all. The thing that scares me and my hubby to death, is that we think that there are a lot of other "conservative Christians" out there that would not have a problem with what he told him either, because like you said, it is PARTLY correct.

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A scenario my husband recently heard about. This was from a conservative.:

Person: I know I am not saved because I do not feel sorry for the ?sins? I commit. How sorry would I need to feel?


Preacher: ?Being sorry has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. It is an instantaneous event. When you believe/trust it is complete. Later on sanctification occurs where you become more Christ like and change your ways but being saved doesn?t remove the sin desires from us?.

This is the very situation that I keep coming back to in my emphasis on revisiting the repentance issue. I know an awful lot of people who............

***"prayed the prayer" in the "repeat after me" procedure and now think they are saved. (they very well may NOT be saved).

***Accepted the "Easy Believism" basis for salvation and never dealt with the sin issue.

***Taught and accepted the Romans Road to salvation and left it go at that. Romans 3:23, 6:23, 5:8, 10:9,10 and 10:13 are all very good verses but no-where in those verses is the call to repent. The Romans road is not bad in itself it just doesn't go far enough.

A good case examle of this is found in Joshua 24.

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Honestly, how many folks are remorseful of their sins when they get saved? Especially young people. I don't see anything that says Christ won't save you unless you are remorseful. Whosever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Why do people always want to add more to this?

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Lack of sorrow indicates lack of repentence ("godly sorrow worketh repentance"). The pastor's last statement is partly correct - all of our sinful desires aren't removed at salvation' date=' but we have the Holy Spirit inside us to begin the work of making us more like Christ. But he definitely didn't help that person!!!![/quote']


Wichbla... HC, said it above. This one, two, three...* POOF *... you are saved?! That is "easy-believism" and it is truly dangerous. An example, of a child getting saved, would be rebellion against their parents. Now, we all rebel, of course; however, the child makes that decision to confess that sin (that God has laid on their heart) and they try to live according to God's Word. Of course, they will fail. The flesh lives in all of us. The point is, though, that they have confessed that sin to God and repentance has begun in their heart. Thus, the child "trys" to live according to what the Holy Spirit is doing in their heart.

In Christ,

Molly

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"Whoesever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Not, "whosever shall remorsefully call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."


Wilchbla, I agree that the emotion of sorrow is not required for salvation. I do think it is a natural (but not necessary) byproduct of true repentance. Nowhere does Scripture say that we are required to "feel" anything in order to become a child of God. Requiring someone to "feel" a certain way is just setting him up for failure, since a person cannot generally "emote" on command. Everyone's personality is so different.

That said, I do believe that a person who does not sense the convicting work of the Holy Spirit in his life should question whether or not he is truly a child of God (Heb. 12). It's not JUST an emotion, or feeling. It's the real, live convicting, chastening hand of God that all believers experience.

If I had been counseling the person described in the OP, I would have asked him more questions and made fewer assumptions. Questions like, "What do you mean that you don't "feel sorry" for your sin?" It is a mistake to assume that a person who describes himself as not "feeling sorry" for his sin is definitely not a believer. More probing questions should be asked, and the Scripture should be opened to help shed light on the situation. The answer to this person's problem cannot be arrived at in a short, trite, glib conversation.

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Honestly, how many folks are remorseful of their sins when they get saved? Especially young people. I don't see anything that says Christ won't save you unless you are remorseful. Whosever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Why do people always want to add more to this?


How can God save you unless you realize you have come short of the glory of God and have a sin problem? When you do realize your sin if your not sorry for it how are you going to truly desire salvation from it? Easy believism takes those who are dead in sins without conviction from the Holy Spirit, deep down they don't even understand sin is problem, and it tells them that if they say a few words they are going to be ok. They do so and go on with their lives two fold more a child of hell. It isn't any better than baptizing infants and teaching them as they get older they are saved by that. Emotion doesn't equal salvation, but if you don't understand a need for salvation how can you be saved and if you do understand your need and accept him one would think that it would produce some sort of emotion at the very least inwardly.

If I had been counseling the person described in the OP, I would have asked him more questions and made fewer assumptions. Questions like, "What do you mean that you don't "feel sorry" for your sin?" It is a mistake to assume that a person who describes himself as not "feeling sorry" for his sin is definitely not a believer. More probing questions should be asked, and the Scripture should be opened to help shed light on the situation. The answer to this person's problem cannot be arrived at in a short, trite, glib conversation.



True. He may be saying he doesn't feel sorry about sin because he may think if he was truly sorry he wouldn't struggle with it. The very fact that he is worried enough to ask about it indicates he may indeed be sorry over it. As you say this would take an actual conversation with the person to get a feel for the situation. I wouldn't condemn the pastor without a better understanding of the situation, but I would certainly be reluctant to try to convince a person that said they knew they weren't saved that they were. Perhaps if I knew the person well and they showed the fruits of the Spirit and I knew that they were depressed I might say something along the lines of what the pastor did, otherwise no.

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Reading through the posts, maybe we can go back and answer the question: "How sorry does one have to be in order to be saved"? Maybe this is not a good comparison, but when I look at my kids when they've done wrong......sometimes I see different things. For instance,

...the 8yr. old whacks his 5yr. old brother because he took something of his. In light of his infraction, and impending punishment, the 8yr. old and I will have a little chat. I don't want ill feeling between him and his brother or between him and I. I love him very much, and I will communicate that to him but I also WANT him to not only acknowledge that what he did was wrong, I want him to be sorry for it. I want him to agree in his heart that HE believes that hitting his brother is wrong. I also expect an apology. I don't just want lip service of a barely audible and grouchy sounding "sorry" to his brother and I, I want him to mean it! I also want to know that he is sorry enough that, (even though I do not expect perfection), that he will try hard not to hit his brother again. So, you see sometimes the situation works out great, and I can see the child is truly sorry for what they've done, and their sibling forgives them--life goes on until the next learning situation. Sometimes, however, I've seen a child who is truly SORRY, oh boy, is he sorry he got caught! Oh, and he's so very sorry that he will need to be disciplined--(you better believe there have been times like those!) but there was obviously no sorrow over what the child had done. I dread those moments because I know the behavior is going to continue until that child changes their mind and sees that what they did was wrong.

And so it goes, I'm sure this is a can of worms.........how sorry does one have to be for their sin to be saved?

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And so it goes' date=' I'm sure this is a can of worms.........how sorry does one have to be for their sin to be saved?[/quote']
How "sorry" does the Bible say that one HAS to be in order to be saved? Does the Scripture even use that terminology? If it doesn't, then requiring "sorrow" or "remorse" in order to be saved is adding works to salvation. It is requiring more than the Bible does, and is therefore a form of heresy. (Notice I said "if." If anyone can point to a Scripture which indicates that "sorrow" (or "remorse") is necessary for salvation, then you'll have the answer to your question.)

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Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

How is God going to save someone that isn't sorry for their sin if he will not even listen to them?

Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Psalm 119:155 Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Notice he called for those that feared God to accept Christ. Proverbs says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

This last verse is not dealing with salvation as we usually speak of it since Paul was speaking to believers, but the principle is still true regarding the lost.

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Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart' date=' the Lord will not hear me:[/u']

How is God going to save someone that isn't sorry for their sin if he will not even listen to them?


What is missing from this verse is any reference to any emotion, let alone sorrow/remorse.

Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Psalm 119:155 Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Notice he called for those that feared God to accept Christ. Proverbs says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Great verses...but again, no reference to sorrow/remorse for sin.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

This last verse is not dealing with salvation as we usually speak of it since Paul was speaking to believers, but the principle is still true regarding the lost.


Yes. Paul was talking about "making them sorry with a letter" (verse 8). His words made them sorrow unto repentance. You are correct that this is not referring to salvation, but to renewed zeal. In short, this statement by Paul acknowledges that godly sorrow is a good thing, and is a motivation for repentance. But it does not make sorrow (the emotion) a requirement for salvation.

I'll put it this way. If a person asks, "How sorry must I be in order to be saved?" I would tell him he is asking the wrong question. He is basing his salvation on a work, an emotion--not upon the objective truth that Jesus atoned for his sins. Certainly, feeling sorrow over sin is not out of place; on the contrary, it is quite appropriate--even expected--as a byproduct of conviction and a motivation for repentance. But it is not the central element. A person can repent--can admit that he is wrong--without "a certain amount" of emotion. (How is that measured, anyway?) It is foolish to focus on the (arbitrary) "amount of sorrow" as the defining element of a person's salvation. It opens the door for severe, unnecessary doubting later on: "Was I sorry enough?" "Did I feel badly enough?" "What if I didn't really feel remorse over sin?" The truth is that the closer we get to having the mind of Christ, the more we begin to realize just how much we hate our sin, and what our sin cost our Savior. Our sorrow for sin is generally greater down the road with Jesus than it is at our first meeting with Him, IMO.

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What is regarding iniquity? It is NOT being sorry for it. It is impossible to to truly understand sin and NOT be sorry for it and still get saved at that point. Why? because the heart would still be turned toward satan instead of God. The person would essentially be calling God a liar. That is why God said even the prayers of those who are rejecting his word are an abomination. Their hearts are not turned to him. While I would never attempt to set some arbitrary level of sorrow needed before salvation I am confident that anyone who has never felt any godly sorrow for their sin has never repented and is as lost as he or she can be.

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That said' date=' I do believe that a person who does not sense the convicting work of the Holy Spirit in his life should question whether or not he is truly a child of God (Heb. 12). It's not JUST an emotion, or feeling. [b']It's the real, live convicting, chastening hand of God that all believers experience.

If I had been counseling the person described in the OP, I would have asked him more questions and made fewer assumptions. Questions like, "What do you mean that you don't "feel sorry" for your sin?" It is a mistake to assume that a person who describes himself as not "feeling sorry" for his sin is definitely not a believer. More probing questions should be asked, and the Scripture should be opened to help shed light on the situation. The answer to this person's problem cannot be arrived at in a short, trite, glib conversation.


Very well said, Annie. I highlighted two areas.

The "Fruit of the Spirit" as seen in (Galations 5) and other scriptures in the Bible... begin fresh in a "New Christian's" life. A change should be seen in the sinner's life. I will use "cursing" as an example. A new Christian will feel sorrow when they say a curse word. If that sin is something that they have had a problem with? Yes, when they say a curse word, then... they will be convicted (convinced) of that. When one feels sorry for what they have done (sin) is when a new life begins. And, as Annie said... "Scripture should opened to shed light on the situation." The person needs to see the Word of God and hear those words, as well. Spiritual growth should begin to take hold of that person's life. Sadly, many people "claim" salvation... yet, they are not continuing in Bible-believing churches. Discipleship begins at that point.

Salvation:

1) Realize that they are a sinner... and be willing to turn from their sin (repent).

2) Place your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.

St Luke 13:3... I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish. King James Bible "The Words of Jesus Christ"

In His service ~

Molly

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What is regarding iniquity? It is NOT being sorry for it. It is impossible to to truly understand sin and NOT be sorry for it and still get saved at that point.

I think I understand what you're saying...but I think you might be confusing a "position" of mind with an emotion. I don't mean to be nitpicky, but I do believe it is possible for a person to view sin correctly (as something that is wicked and that is keeping him from heaven and fellowship with God) and repent of that sin in humility without feeling (as the OP asked) a "specific amount" of remorse as a requirement for salvation. I'm not saying the remorse isn't there...just that it's not what we base our salvation experience on at all. We shouldn't be overly concerned about whether, at the moment of salvation, we had the "right amount" of remorse. I do agree that a person who never feels any remorse for sin is not close to God's heart. But I've found, when counseling people about assurance of salvation, it is often the most tender people who are concerned that they "never feel sorry" for their sin, and therefore must not be saved. What these people are wanting to trust in, without realizing it, is their own sorrow instead of the finished work of Christ. They have an inordinate focus on "how sorry/not sorry they have been" for their sins, when that is not the point of salvation at all. Sorrow is merely the byproduct of God's conviction. Some feel sorrow very deeply, shedding buckets of tears. Some are indeed "sorrowful" over their sin, but they express it differently.

For example, three of my fairly young children have made professions of faith. I've walked them through the doctrines and truths about sin and salvation, and made sure they understood them, and I truly believe each one has been saved. They understood and confessed their need for salvation (that they were sinners) and accepted Christ's sacrifice, believing on Him alone for forgiveness and salvation. None of them cried at all; I don't think that at age five they really understood all of the implications of their sin...how deeply it hurt Christ on the cross, how it affects their hearts, etc. They didn't know enough to be "that sorry." But as they've grown in Christ, they have begun developing His mind toward sin, and have expressed the kind of frustration/remorse over sin that Paul describes in Romans 7. But they didn't have this remorse at the moment of salvation.

I think it is dangerous and wrongheaded to "require" a certain amount of an emotion like remorse for salvation. I'm not saying that's what is going on here, but it seems to be tiptoeing toward this territory.

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I think that the other posters yesterday did a good job of answering the question. I didn't necessarily take the OP question to mean an emotional outpouring like you did. I took it to mean that there are different versions of being "sorry"--like I tried to show with my kids. I guess I didn't do a very good job of that. Yes, I believe that we should put our faith in God's Word and the finished work of Christ.....not our feelings.

As a sidenote, I had a grandfather of a little boy about 8yrs. want me to sit down with his grandson during children's church and share the Gospel with him since I was a helper to the main teacher. I did so. I was surprised to find that the little boy had perfect knowledge about how to be saved, but was not. He reiterated to me the Gospel and told me that he wanted to go to heaven, he knew that he'd committed sin and that it was "wrong" even. He told me that someday maybe he'd pray and get saved...........but not today. (and he was very adamant about that) What seemed to be missing was, even though he knew sin was "wrong" (most likely because someone taught him it was) he did not see that sin the way God sees it. When I think of being sorry for our sin, I think of us needing to see that sin the way God does, and when we do......it causes us to repent of it. Did I make any more sense this time? ( :puzzled: Probably not)

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But I've found, when counseling people about assurance of salvation, it is often the most tender people who are concerned that they "never feel sorry" for their sin, and therefore must not be saved.


I can agree with that. You are correct that is often the case. When dealing with such individuals it is usually easy to discern if this is the case or not. As you say they often are feeling guilty over their failures and are not submitting to the righteousness of God. Since they are hanging on to their guilt instead of giving it over to the Lord they may begin to question their salvation. At such a point it is good to remind them that Christ said he was sent to heal the brokenhearted and that extreme pain and guilt over sin is more an evidence of salvation than an evidence of being lost. The pain from sin is a form of Gods chastening for the believer and an incentive to live a more Holy life.

Two more verses on the subject.

Psalm 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.


I think it is dangerous and wrongheaded to "require" a certain amount of an emotion like remorse for salvation. I'm not saying that's what is going on here, but it seems to be tiptoeing toward this territory.


I didn't cry when I was saved, and I am more often accused of showing no emotion than showing to much, all I am saying is that a person must understand and have sorrow for their sinful condition before their heart is turned to God and he can save them. Sorrow does not always equal tears or visible emotion, but sorrow for sin is a important part of repentance, or the heart turning to God. The greatest commandment is to love the Lord God with all our hearts. Christ said the whole law was centered around that commandment. Love is partially an emotion, and partially a choice. Love without any emotion isn't true love at all, it is dead. The same is true of repentance and sorrow. Partially emotion, partially choice. If you make it all emotion it is incomplete, but it is also incomplete if you leave it at a mere mental agreement. The heart must believe, and heart belief is both mental and emotional.

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That is why God said even the prayers of those who are rejecting his word are an abomination.


What does this mean? That the prayers of the unsaved are nevertheless an abomination or that it is especially an abomination for an unsaved person to pray, like it is said that an unbeliever taking communion is especially an offence?

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What does this mean? That the prayers of the unsaved are nevertheless an abomination or that it is especially an abomination for an unsaved person to pray, like it is said that an unbeliever taking communion is especially an offence?


al - Prov. 28:9 says, "He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination." I don't see there that it is just the unsaved! It is anyone who rejects God's Word!

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What does this mean? That the prayers of the unsaved are nevertheless an abomination or that it is especially an abomination for an unsaved person to pray, like it is said that an unbeliever taking communion is especially an offence?





Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

This verse is teaching that when people, saved or unsaved, are choosing willfully to reject or ignore what God has said in the scriptures that puts them at such "odds" with God that even their prayers are a sin until they are willing to repent and stop turning away their ear from hearing his law. It is not teaching that the prayer of one that is choosing to turn away from hearing the law is an extra special abomination above all other sins he commits, but instead that everything that person does is abominable to God and that God will not listen to them until they are willing to listen to him. Hebrews 11:6 teaches that God cannot be pleased without faith in him and obviously those who are willfully rejecting scripture are not showing faith. Romans 14:23 teaches that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Therefore, since those who are choosing to reject his word are not showing faith and are calling God a liar by rejecting his word, everything they do becomes a sin before God. We don't tend to think that way, we tend to think of the lost or those believers who are willfully rejecting some scriptures because they don't want to surrender to God as able to do both good and bad things, but that isn't how God sees it. God sees anyone whose heart is in willful rebellion against his word as living a completely wicked and sinful life. That doesn't mean if that person has been saved previously they are not still justified before God through Christ, but that is a different topic.

Another verse with a similiar teaching to Proverbs 28:9 is this:

Proverbs 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

First this verse condemns things that many other scriptures condemn, but then it adds "the plowing of the wicked". As is the case with Proverbs 28:9, this verse is to show that when a person is in a wrong relationship with God everything, even the "good" things(like honest labor) that person does is sin to God.

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As a sidenote' date=' I had a grandfather of a little boy about 8yrs. want me to sit down with his grandson during children's church and share the Gospel with him since I was a helper to the main teacher. I did so. I was surprised to find that the little boy had perfect knowledge about how to be saved, but was not. He reiterated to me the Gospel and told me that he wanted to go to heaven, he knew that he'd committed sin and that it was "wrong" even. He told me that someday maybe he'd pray and get saved...........but not today. (and he was very adamant about that) What seemed to be missing was, even though he knew sin was "wrong" (most likely because someone taught him it was) he did not see that sin the way God sees it. When I think of being sorry for our sin, I think of us needing to see that sin the way God does, and when we do......it causes us to repent of it. Did I make any more sense this time? ( Probably not)[/quote']

Absolutely, you make perfect sense to me. Well done!

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Absolutely, you make perfect sense to me. Well done!


Acts 24:25
And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

You can experience the conviction of the Holy Ghost, fear Hell, know you are a sinner, and know that God is good and righteous and still go to Hell.....because you are unwilling to submit to God. That's why people put it off, they are unwilling to submit. Praying that this little boy comes to the end of himself soon, before he ruins his life with sin.

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