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11 hours ago, Salyan said:

I have a problem with the large text as it stands, with no additional qualifications. I think that our Christian culture, in the effort to teach submission, sometimes forgets that actual abuse does exist, and a wife 'doing what she should' is not going to be able to change a man who is consciously, purposely out to hurt and abuse his family. Yes, individuals in a marriage are to complete their part in it regardless of how the other person is completing theirs, but if the husband is actively and continuously abusing their spouse, there comes a point at which the wife must, for her own safety and the safety of any children, stop allowing the husband to do so - in that sense, she must stop submitting. Because submitting to abuse is not what God designed the marriage roles for.

You know, physical abuse wasn't what I had in mind at all when I posted that; there are many ways to abuse besides physical abuse. . But methinks that complete submission would, more often than not, serve to prevent things from escalating to that point. The "perfect woman", behaving as outlined in 1 Peter 3, could often prevent abuse from such an ungodly, unloving, cowardly "angry man"  because her "meek and quiet spirit" could diffuse it. A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Proverbs 15:1 

However, since there are many wives who haven't yet reached that level of spiritual maturity. and some do have problems with manipulative, deceitful, unloving, "odious" spirits, and "brawling" ways, then the husband has to do his part and love them anyway. And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8

But I have to disagree with one thing you said: I don't know anywhere in the Bible which tells a wife to "stop submitting". It does say to Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go: Proverbs 22:24 so I would say that it would be best to just quietly leave for safety's sake. Maybe God will handle the rest?  Many years ago, a first cousin of mine was being physically abused by her first husband. One day her Dad and one of my other uncles paid him a visit, Though neither of my uncles were saved at the time, when they were finished with him, I suppose they may have taught him something about right and wrong because, as far as I know, he never abused her again.

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11 hours ago, heartstrings said:

You know, physical abuse wasn't what I had in mind at all when I posted that; there are many ways to abuse besides physical abuse. . But methinks that complete submission would, more often than not, serve to prevent things from escalating to that point. The "perfect woman", behaving as outlined in 1 Peter 3, could often prevent abuse from such an ungodly, unloving, cowardly "angry man"  because her "meek and quiet spirit" could diffuse it. A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Proverbs 15:1 

 

I know it wasn't what you had in mind. The problem is that the issue of abuse never seems to be raised when things like that are taught, leaving women to think that, as you said above, they've got to 'just be better and it'll fix everything.'  (Also, you see how abuse could become viewed as the woman's fault, because she supposedly isn't submissive/meek/godly enough? That's damaging.) A sociopathic, abusive man is not going to stop because his wife is quietly submitting to abuse - he will escalate. Telling women otherwise is very, very dangerous. 

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But I have to disagree with one thing you said: I don't know anywhere in the Bible which tells a wife to "stop submitting". It does say to Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go: Proverbs 22:24 so I would say that it would be best to just quietly leave for safety's sake. 

I think that is the best solution too. I guess I was viewing the act of leaving as ceasing to submit, in a sense. Since odds are the husband wouldn't like it and would try to forbid it, she is likely to need to defy his wishes in order to get herself and any children safely out.

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45 minutes ago, Salyan said:

I know it wasn't what you had in mind. The problem is that the issue of abuse never seems to be raised when things like that are taught, leaving women to think that, as you said above, they've got to 'just be better and it'll fix everything.'  (Also, you see how abuse could become viewed as the woman's fault, because she supposedly isn't submissive/meek/godly enough? That's damaging.) A sociopathic, abusive man is not going to stop because his wife is quietly submitting to abuse - he will escalate. Telling women otherwise is very, very dangerous. 

I think that is the best solution too. I guess I was viewing the act of leaving as ceasing to submit, in a sense. Since odds are the husband wouldn't like it and would try to forbid it, she is likely to need to defy his wishes in order to get herself and any children safely out.

No, my view of "defying" or "not submitting" in such a situation would consist of doing things that you know will aggravate, or in talking back/arguing with an abusive, angry person who can't control themselves.. It's never OK to physically abuse your wife (or husband in some cases) so I don't see leaving as a failure to submit; if someone is hurting you, you need to get away NOW, do not wait. There is no excuse for it and they have crossed the line with the first incident.

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A big problem in such abusive relationships, is that, probably 90% of the time, the relationship from the beginning shows signs that it will, or might, be that way. When people are still dating/courting, and there are loud angry arguments, when the man is already a jerk at times, well it isn't going to get better. yet too often, women figure that true love will overcome all and he will change. Nope, generally doesn't happen. And men can do the same thing, go into a relationship with a loud, angry woman, thinking it will change in marriage-nope, doesn't happen-in both situations it WILL get worse. And if one is that way and claims to be born again, that should send up a red flag that maybe they're not what they say they are.

The point of dating is to find a mate, someone that is who and what you believe you need in your life. Sadly I think we adults haven't done a good job teaching our kids to look successfully for a spouse, probably because we didn't learn til later in life what would be the best way. Now, with young people in our church, I tell them, Make a list, write it down, of the things you are looking for in a wife/husband. Make a section of non-negatiables, and a section of 'would prefer but can live without'. And stick to your list when you date. If they don't fit the non-negotiables, don't extend the relationship. And always ALWAYS find someone who loves the Lord and goes to church without having to be cajoled.  

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What I've seen over the past ten years or so has shown me, at least now, it's rare one spouse determined to follow the Lord will greatly sway the one who has decided not to. Our pastor has commented on this and he believes the devil is really targeting marriage for destruction. On the broader sense we can see this with the push for "homosexual marriage", calls for other perverse forms of "marriage" and the total redefinition of what constitutes a marriage and even a family.

Closer at home we see many marriages, even long term marriages, come under assault. Many not only go through tough times, they divorce. In the area I live it seems most often it's the wife the devil targets. All too often this leads to divorce.

I would ask for prayer in this area myself. It seems my own wife is going through a midlife crisis or change of life or whatever they call it these days. In talking with my pastor about this he mentioned many others going through this, and some who have been through this and for many divorce was the result. I hadn't realized so many couples in their early 50s were having problems and so many had come to divorce.

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17 hours ago, John81 said:

What I've seen over the past ten years or so has shown me, at least now, it's rare one spouse determined to follow the Lord will greatly sway the one who has decided not to. Our pastor has commented on this and he believes the devil is really targeting marriage for destruction. On the broader sense we can see this with the push for "homosexual marriage", calls for other perverse forms of "marriage" and the total redefinition of what constitutes a marriage and even a family.

Closer at home we see many marriages, even long term marriages, come under assault. Many not only go through tough times, they divorce. In the area I live it seems most often it's the wife the devil targets. All too often this leads to divorce.

I would ask for prayer in this area myself. It seems my own wife is going through a midlife crisis or change of life or whatever they call it these days. In talking with my pastor about this he mentioned many others going through this, and some who have been through this and for many divorce was the result. I hadn't realized so many couples in their early 50s were having problems and so many had come to divorce.

That's where faith and faithfulness comes in. All marriages go through difficult times and the devil targets everyone involved; wife husband and kids.  So if your wife is going through midlife or whatever, put a smile on your face and love her anyway...actively love her; say sweet things, do sweet loving things for her. That's what it's all about bro. It will pass, and it is definitely worth it..

1 Corinthians 7:

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Notice the sentence "God hath called us to peace". Neither husbands nor wives can "sway" anyone, particularly our spouses, by persuasion (nagging). Not saying anyone here does: but only submission and loving will work. It's all right there in 1 Peter 3:1-13

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My children are not allowed to date.  But I will let a young man court them.  Our eldest daughter is being courted now.  The little fella was so nervous but he did it the right way and asked my permission to court her.  Before allowing this I had to pray and consider this youngster's heart as he was not saved.  Over dinner I surmised that his heart was ripe for the Gospel and salvation and two weeks later, with no input from me, he spent several hours with my pastor and accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior.  

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