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"Wives are to honor and respect and follow their husband's lead, not to tell their husband how he ought to be a better husband," he says. "When each person gets their part right, regardless of how their spouse is treating them, there is hope for real change in their marriage."

http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebrity/kirk-cameron-says-wives-should-honor-husbands-not-tell-them-how-to-be-better/ar-BBsqSil?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=DELLDHP

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The toughest part for virgins and wives who have been brought up with worldly values is submission.  The culture of America has taught them that the men are idiots and they are to be strong, independent women who can do anything a man does.

Anyone seen that Tarzan and Jane insurance commercial?  

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Even in churches, Christian schools, Christian homes, (and we see it here too) radical feminism, Hollywood manliness and other secular views infect or even dominate the teaching and upbringing.

Several decades ago John R. Rice warned about women who were bossy wives, short haired and unsubmissive. At the same time many warnings went forth of men taking on a secular macho persona or a more feminine, softer demeanor.

We have very little from-the-Bible training and instruction for our children, youth, young men and women or the congregation as a whole. Most of our churches separate people based upon age, these groups are often isolated from the rest and receive whatever instruction they get from one or two others.

Where is the biblical mandate for older, mature in Christ men and women to be instructing the boys and girls, youth, young men and women, those needing discipleship?

Where is the biblical mandate for men to hold the leadership positions, to actually lead and teach?

Where are the older, mature in Christ women instructing the younger women to love their husbands, rightly train their children and fulfill their godly role in life?

How about the men?

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1 hour ago, John81 said:

Where is the biblical mandate for older, mature in Christ men and women to be instructing the boys and girls, youth, young men and women, those needing discipleship?

It's in the bible?

“And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.” - Deuteronomy 6:7

“Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” - Proverbs 22:6

“Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.” - Colossians 3:20

"That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.  Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded." - Titus 2:4-6

There are dozens more verses along this topic but you probably know them better than me John.  However, we've gotten off topic here somewhat.  Brother Wayne's post is about the wife's biblical responsibilities and relationship to her husband.

 

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1 hour ago, swathdiver said:

It's in the bible?

“And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.” - Deuteronomy 6:7

“Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.” - Proverbs 22:6

“Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.” - Colossians 3:20

"That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.  Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded." - Titus 2:4-6

There are dozens more verses along this topic but you probably know them better than me John.  However, we've gotten off topic here somewhat.  Brother Wayne's post is about the wife's biblical responsibilities and relationship to her husband.

 

I don't think he was questioning whether there is such a mandate in Scripture.

Rather, knowing it is a Biblical mandate, where is the evidence of it being adhered to in our churches (for the most part) today.

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55 minutes ago, OLD fashioned preacher said:

I don't think he was questioning whether there is such a mandate in Scripture.

Rather, knowing it is a Biblical mandate, where is the evidence of it being adhered to in our churches (for the most part) today.

True.

Most churches today follow the worldly model of separating children through young adults into their own groups where often they receive little real Bible training, and certainly not the kind spoken of in Scripture. Just as modern culture trains children, youth, even adults to cling to childish ways, so many of our churches do the same. In many churches the only way older folks get good attention is if they try to act "cool".

Then, once church is over most in the church go their separate ways, often not seeing one another again until the next church service.

There are very few churches which have older men training and instructing the boys, youth and young men how to be saved, grow in Christ, how to mature and become a responsible, adult Christian man. Likewise on the female side.

 

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That is exactly What the Bible teaches: The older are to teach the younger. The old men teach the young men and the older ladies teach the younger ladies. I believe if we did that, and it was done the Bible way, there would be MUCH happier and more stable Christian homes. But in my present Sunday school we have mixed (male and female) whereas the teacher is a younger man than myself and his wife calls him down at times and CORRECTS him while he teaches. I love them both but, I'm sorry: that AIN'T Biblical.

But a good, "sober", Godly, compassionate and wise old man could teach younger men because he has EXPERIENCE. He has already done and seen some stupid stuff; made the mistakes of life and KNOWS the pitfalls and heartaches. The older ladies are likewise. WOW! Why don't we do that? Not only can they teach HOW to be a good wife/husband, but many know how NOT to be. What a treasure trove of wisdom, understanding, and knowledge.

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Our culture shifted several decades ago from one which respected older folks and sought out their wisdom, to one which looks down upon older people as being out of touch, boring, wrong headed, unimportant, having nothing to say, a burden. While most churches wouldn't say such out loud, in practice they are often little different. The older folks are separated into their own classes. All that wisdom, experience, knowledge, shut off from the rest of the church.

The children are separated by age and dealt with in a similar manner as public schools. The same with the youth, even to the point their classes are designed more to entertain than to train in the way of growing in maturity in Christ and as maturing into adulthood. Rather than putting away childish things and learning responsibility, how to be godly men and women, they are encouraged to hold on to their childish ways.

In earlier times those in their teen years were considered young men and women. They were well transitioning or transitioned from childhood to adulthood. Today, not only are teens viewed as children, they are expected and encouraged to act like children rather than responsible young adults. Further, this now extends to those in their 20s, in many cases into the 30s.

As our culture has shifted to this youth driven, current affairs obsessed way, only those beyond 40 who try to act as if they are like the youth are viewed well. The mature 50 year old is seen as a backward nobody while the childish 50 year old who went into debt buying a new sports car, blaring the latest rap or pop hit from his car while dressed in the latest style is seen as more relevant.

Sad so many churches follow this model. I saw a bulletin for a church that had moved into a new building. In the bulletin they called attention to their classes and groups for children, tweens, teens, youth, college age, singles, divorced, senior citizens, quilters, etc. While there may be some merit to some, if done in a Bible manner, what all this reveals is more division rather than drawing together as family in Christ.

Imagine a mature man of God training and instructing teen males from the Bible rather than the young, kind of cool guy trying to entertain the teens while slipping in some Bible here and there.

Imagine our teen girls being trained and instructed by mature women who live for the Lord.

It seems too much of the worlds ways and the modern culture influence our church operations more than biblical instruction.

I know I certainly could have benefited from Bible instruction from mature men of God in my younger days. Even in my 50s I value that which I may receive from the older men of God who have so much to share.

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Sorry, I didn't take what was written that way.  My local church does both at differing times through the week.  Our elders do instruct the youth and our young adults also.  So what folks are lamenting for is taking place in my corner of the world.   

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2 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Sorry, I didn't take what was written that way.  My local church does both at differing times through the week.  Our elders do instruct the youth and our young adults also.  So what folks are lamenting for is taking place in my corner of the world.   

That is very good to hear. There are still a few churches which put forth some effort in this area but they seem to be very few.

Our church has made progress in this area and we are exploring more ways of having interaction between the youth and older Christians. It's a challenge in a small rural church but worth the effort.

These matters should extend beyond church activities into our weekly lives as well. We have organized family dinners, where four families meet at least once a week for dinner, friendship and fellowship. This has helped to bond many in our church closer together and open more doors for weekly interactions rather than just seeing folks at church services.

We have also had times where younger ones in the church would volunteer to help some of our older members with yard work, house cleaning, minor home repair or painting. These typically involve a good amount of interaction between the young folks and the older members.

Likewise we've had some success in getting some youth in the church involved in visiting the local nursing home...sharing the Gospel, reading the Bible to residents, participating in Bible studies, and spending time talking.

We also try to do business among ourselves when possible which also creates stronger bonds and opportunities for interaction and sharing. Nothing like helping the person you hired to paint for you while discussing the Bible and how the Lord has worked in our lives.

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Same here.  Our local church has a ministry whereby the members go to people's homes and make repairs, do yard work, put on new roofs, install new windows, rebuild car engines, etc.  It provides these services to the general public and to our own members in need.  

The members hold potluck fellowships in their homes from time to time and the young adult Sunday School Class has been known to hop in one of our school buses and have an appetizer at one elder's home, then drive on over to a deacon's home for the main course and another elder will host them for dessert.  This too makes for great memories and fellowship.  The church also frequently holds fellowship breakfasts before Soul-Winning Saturdays and dinners for the whole church quite often.  We have our own smoker and being southerners, we eat a lot of BBQ!  Pastor and some of the elders can cook delicious barbeque anything and the ladies make the greatest sides and desserts, including my wife!  People recognize her dishes and they always come home empty.  

Our church also conducts its own fall festival each year which brings out many thousands from the town and the kids and adults are given the gospel and a great time.  When my health permits, I invite the men and their children to shoot my muzzleloaders and invariably we also talk about the things of God.

Churches like ours are a remnant.  Nearly all of the other IFB and Southern Baptist Churches have jumped on the universal, invisible church bandwagon and have adopted all manner of clearly defined heresies.  There's even one that does fire gauntlet things and even while calling themselves Independent Baptists, has brought in the sodomite Presbyterian More Light Ministry into their...  bowl of nuts.  Can't call that one a church!

I didn't just happen upon this church.  I prayed and prayed for a biblical church and the Good Lord brought me to this one.  Materially, we gave up much, moved 60 miles away from family and our salaries eventually became 1/4 of what they once were and we've endured numerous other hardships.  Spiritually, I could not have made a better decision for my family.  It's one of the few good decisions I've made in life but the credit goes to the Holy Spirit and Christ for burdening me to search for one of Jesus' New Testament Churches that he built and died for during his earthly ministry.  It's close to perfection but counts me in its membership! 

Edited by swathdiver
Grammar

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On 4/30/2016 at 11:25 PM, heartstrings said:

When each person gets their part right, regardless of how their spouse is treating them, there is hope for real change in their marriage."

I have a problem with the large text as it stands, with no additional qualifications. I think that our Christian culture, in the effort to teach submission, sometimes forgets that actual abuse does exist, and a wife 'doing what she should' is not going to be able to change a man who is consciously, purposely out to hurt and abuse his family. Yes, individuals in a marriage are to complete their part in it regardless of how the other person is completing theirs, but if the husband is actively and continuously abusing their spouse, there comes a point at which the wife must, for her own safety and the safety of any children, stop allowing the husband to do so - in that sense, she must stop submitting. Because submitting to abuse is not what God designed the marriage roles for.

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On 4/30/2016 at 0:24 AM, swathdiver said:

The toughest part for virgins and wives who have been brought up with worldly values is submission.  The culture of America has taught them that the men are idiots and they are to be strong, independent women who can do anything a man does.

Our culture does emphasis independence, which does make it a lot harder to learn to submit. :) It doesn't help that nowadays delayed marriage often means that some of us girls have to be independent and support ourselves, cause, well, no one else is around to do so! However, women are strong, and can do almost anything a man can. (Notice I said almost! And could, not should.) That's not a character flaw - that's how God made us. Submission does not mean that we should pretend to be weak-kneed idiots, silent-film-style, but somehow learning to submit while still acknowledging and using the strengths God gave us. 

FWIW, when men unconsciously (or consciously) portray the attitude that women are inherently inferior, or shouldn't be strong, or are somehow just 'less' than men, it really does rankle and make it hard to submit. Because that attitude is just plain wrong. It helps us best when we are acknowledged as equal parties - because, Biblically, that's what we are. Galatians 3:28

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Teaching submission/honor of parents is a difficult thing these days when so many parents are so messed up.

I have a young couple in our church, both recently saved and really wanting to serve God, but their parents are SO messed up, how does one teach them to honor their parents, while at the same time teaching them to have boundaries against those who are dangers to them?  The husband was molested for a long time by his brother, and when he came forward with it, his mother disowned him and told him he was a liar. To this day she wants nothing to do with him. How does one honor that? The wife's mother is manipulative, has multiple husbands, (and by that I don't mean divorced and remarried, but married, then leaves him with no divorce, and married again, three times over), insists that SHE is to be more important to her than her husband. She wants to keep her daughter on psych meds, even though since she's been off them she has improved vastly-basically she made it clear that SHE is to be the ruler of their lives-she's profane, cuts off anyone who she disagrees with and thinks I am leading a cult because I won't back her on everything. She accuses all men of either wanting her, or, if not, of being thieves and stealing from her. She called Adult protective Services on them when they went and got their own place-she said it was to 'help them', but in some texts she accidentally sent me, she made it clear it was to harm them and get them put under mental care.  So again, how does one teach a person to honor that?

We have tried reconciliation, but the mother won't respect any marital boundaries, and won't take any instruction from me. It is very difficult. So these kids are basically castaways from family, and my wife and I seem to have had to take over the parenting role, trying to model good Christian behavior before them.

 

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One can only honor their parents when what they are doing is honoring to God.  They should separate from those devils as soon as possible.  I know an officer who can lead men but refuses to lead his home, his father-in-law, a Catholic, runs his home.  They quit attending a New Testament church and go to mass, their children's Christian education was traded for public school and a swimming pool.  Tragically, they're going to reap what they've sown.  In this household the husband is very likely a false convert, the wife saved and one of the children is saved but not the other.

 

Salyan, until recently, I held to the view that when the kids turned 18 they were out!  But the bible and history does not teach that.  The young ladies stayed at home until marriage for the most part.  Women out on their own are extremely vulnerable to predators of all stripes, most of the episodes of Forensic Files deal with single women living alone or with roommates.  So, I've made the decision to keep our girls home until they're married off.  This decision has ruffled the feathers of our oldest but the younger ones are fine with it.  Several of the elders in my local church wish they did the same thing and are trying to bring their daughters home now as well.  The father walking his daughter down the aisle to hand her off to the groom is a picture of her submission transferring from father to husband.  

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11 hours ago, Salyan said:

I have a problem with the large text as it stands, with no additional qualifications. I think that our Christian culture, in the effort to teach submission, sometimes forgets that actual abuse does exist, and a wife 'doing what she should' is not going to be able to change a man who is consciously, purposely out to hurt and abuse his family. Yes, individuals in a marriage are to complete their part in it regardless of how the other person is completing theirs, but if the husband is actively and continuously abusing their spouse, there comes a point at which the wife must, for her own safety and the safety of any children, stop allowing the husband to do so - in that sense, she must stop submitting. Because submitting to abuse is not what God designed the marriage roles for.

You know, physical abuse wasn't what I had in mind at all when I posted that; there are many ways to abuse besides physical abuse. . But methinks that complete submission would, more often than not, serve to prevent things from escalating to that point. The "perfect woman", behaving as outlined in 1 Peter 3, could often prevent abuse from such an ungodly, unloving, cowardly "angry man"  because her "meek and quiet spirit" could diffuse it. A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Proverbs 15:1 

However, since there are many wives who haven't yet reached that level of spiritual maturity. and some do have problems with manipulative, deceitful, unloving, "odious" spirits, and "brawling" ways, then the husband has to do his part and love them anyway. And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. 1 Peter 4:8

But I have to disagree with one thing you said: I don't know anywhere in the Bible which tells a wife to "stop submitting". It does say to Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go: Proverbs 22:24 so I would say that it would be best to just quietly leave for safety's sake. Maybe God will handle the rest?  Many years ago, a first cousin of mine was being physically abused by her first husband. One day her Dad and one of my other uncles paid him a visit, Though neither of my uncles were saved at the time, when they were finished with him, I suppose they may have taught him something about right and wrong because, as far as I know, he never abused her again.

,

Edited by heartstrings

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11 hours ago, heartstrings said:

You know, physical abuse wasn't what I had in mind at all when I posted that; there are many ways to abuse besides physical abuse. . But methinks that complete submission would, more often than not, serve to prevent things from escalating to that point. The "perfect woman", behaving as outlined in 1 Peter 3, could often prevent abuse from such an ungodly, unloving, cowardly "angry man"  because her "meek and quiet spirit" could diffuse it. A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Proverbs 15:1 

 

I know it wasn't what you had in mind. The problem is that the issue of abuse never seems to be raised when things like that are taught, leaving women to think that, as you said above, they've got to 'just be better and it'll fix everything.'  (Also, you see how abuse could become viewed as the woman's fault, because she supposedly isn't submissive/meek/godly enough? That's damaging.) A sociopathic, abusive man is not going to stop because his wife is quietly submitting to abuse - he will escalate. Telling women otherwise is very, very dangerous. 

Quote

But I have to disagree with one thing you said: I don't know anywhere in the Bible which tells a wife to "stop submitting". It does say to Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go: Proverbs 22:24 so I would say that it would be best to just quietly leave for safety's sake. 

I think that is the best solution too. I guess I was viewing the act of leaving as ceasing to submit, in a sense. Since odds are the husband wouldn't like it and would try to forbid it, she is likely to need to defy his wishes in order to get herself and any children safely out.

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45 minutes ago, Salyan said:

I know it wasn't what you had in mind. The problem is that the issue of abuse never seems to be raised when things like that are taught, leaving women to think that, as you said above, they've got to 'just be better and it'll fix everything.'  (Also, you see how abuse could become viewed as the woman's fault, because she supposedly isn't submissive/meek/godly enough? That's damaging.) A sociopathic, abusive man is not going to stop because his wife is quietly submitting to abuse - he will escalate. Telling women otherwise is very, very dangerous. 

I think that is the best solution too. I guess I was viewing the act of leaving as ceasing to submit, in a sense. Since odds are the husband wouldn't like it and would try to forbid it, she is likely to need to defy his wishes in order to get herself and any children safely out.

No, my view of "defying" or "not submitting" in such a situation would consist of doing things that you know will aggravate, or in talking back/arguing with an abusive, angry person who can't control themselves.. It's never OK to physically abuse your wife (or husband in some cases) so I don't see leaving as a failure to submit; if someone is hurting you, you need to get away NOW, do not wait. There is no excuse for it and they have crossed the line with the first incident.

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A big problem in such abusive relationships, is that, probably 90% of the time, the relationship from the beginning shows signs that it will, or might, be that way. When people are still dating/courting, and there are loud angry arguments, when the man is already a jerk at times, well it isn't going to get better. yet too often, women figure that true love will overcome all and he will change. Nope, generally doesn't happen. And men can do the same thing, go into a relationship with a loud, angry woman, thinking it will change in marriage-nope, doesn't happen-in both situations it WILL get worse. And if one is that way and claims to be born again, that should send up a red flag that maybe they're not what they say they are.

The point of dating is to find a mate, someone that is who and what you believe you need in your life. Sadly I think we adults haven't done a good job teaching our kids to look successfully for a spouse, probably because we didn't learn til later in life what would be the best way. Now, with young people in our church, I tell them, Make a list, write it down, of the things you are looking for in a wife/husband. Make a section of non-negatiables, and a section of 'would prefer but can live without'. And stick to your list when you date. If they don't fit the non-negotiables, don't extend the relationship. And always ALWAYS find someone who loves the Lord and goes to church without having to be cajoled.  

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What I've seen over the past ten years or so has shown me, at least now, it's rare one spouse determined to follow the Lord will greatly sway the one who has decided not to. Our pastor has commented on this and he believes the devil is really targeting marriage for destruction. On the broader sense we can see this with the push for "homosexual marriage", calls for other perverse forms of "marriage" and the total redefinition of what constitutes a marriage and even a family.

Closer at home we see many marriages, even long term marriages, come under assault. Many not only go through tough times, they divorce. In the area I live it seems most often it's the wife the devil targets. All too often this leads to divorce.

I would ask for prayer in this area myself. It seems my own wife is going through a midlife crisis or change of life or whatever they call it these days. In talking with my pastor about this he mentioned many others going through this, and some who have been through this and for many divorce was the result. I hadn't realized so many couples in their early 50s were having problems and so many had come to divorce.

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17 hours ago, John81 said:

What I've seen over the past ten years or so has shown me, at least now, it's rare one spouse determined to follow the Lord will greatly sway the one who has decided not to. Our pastor has commented on this and he believes the devil is really targeting marriage for destruction. On the broader sense we can see this with the push for "homosexual marriage", calls for other perverse forms of "marriage" and the total redefinition of what constitutes a marriage and even a family.

Closer at home we see many marriages, even long term marriages, come under assault. Many not only go through tough times, they divorce. In the area I live it seems most often it's the wife the devil targets. All too often this leads to divorce.

I would ask for prayer in this area myself. It seems my own wife is going through a midlife crisis or change of life or whatever they call it these days. In talking with my pastor about this he mentioned many others going through this, and some who have been through this and for many divorce was the result. I hadn't realized so many couples in their early 50s were having problems and so many had come to divorce.

That's where faith and faithfulness comes in. All marriages go through difficult times and the devil targets everyone involved; wife husband and kids.  So if your wife is going through midlife or whatever, put a smile on your face and love her anyway...actively love her; say sweet things, do sweet loving things for her. That's what it's all about bro. It will pass, and it is definitely worth it..

1 Corinthians 7:

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Notice the sentence "God hath called us to peace". Neither husbands nor wives can "sway" anyone, particularly our spouses, by persuasion (nagging). Not saying anyone here does: but only submission and loving will work. It's all right there in 1 Peter 3:1-13

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My children are not allowed to date.  But I will let a young man court them.  Our eldest daughter is being courted now.  The little fella was so nervous but he did it the right way and asked my permission to court her.  Before allowing this I had to pray and consider this youngster's heart as he was not saved.  Over dinner I surmised that his heart was ripe for the Gospel and salvation and two weeks later, with no input from me, he spent several hours with my pastor and accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior.  

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