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2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

This thread is for us to discuss and expose the many commonly misquoted/misapplied verses in the Bible. Please quote verses you have heard misused, I suspect and expect Pastor Markle to contribute some here as me and him discussed this the other day. I will start first:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Many Baptists use this verse as a knee jerk reaction against Charismaticism/Pentecostalism, They claim this verse proves the Holy Spirit does not speak about himself but only about Jesus Christ. I believe this is flawed for a few reasons: 

1. The Holy Spirit is the author of the scriptures, we are told "holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost".. And if you read the scriptures, the Holy Spirit spoke of himself quite a bit, just read John chapters 14,15, and 16, Ephesians chapter 1, and a whole lot of other places in the scriptures.

2. When the above verse says he speaks "not of himself" it just simply means that he speaks what he receives from God the Father, It's very similar to this passage:   John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

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I see what you're saying, but I would assert that the "timeframe" and "circumstances" given for the Spirit's speaking (in the quoted verse) are different from the "timeframe" and "circumstances" of inspiring God's word...if that makes sense.

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4 hours ago, swathdiver said:

The Holy Ghost does not glorify nor boast of himself but always points us towards Jesus Christ.

Right. While some may use the verse in question as an argument against Charismatic's and Pentecostal's over-emphasis and glorification of the Holy Spirit, I (personally) don't see that verse is what shows their error. Rather than the verse in question, in my opinion, it's the verse after which shows their error...

John 16:14

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The Holy Spirit will glorify the Lord Jesus Christ; therefore, he will point people to Christ...not himself. However, Charismatics and Pentecostals glorify the Holy Spirit. In doing so, (to me) it's obvious that they aren't led by the Spirit in doing so.

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"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." First John 4:8

Most often this verse is quoted only as "God is love." From there many go on to present a humanist (not Bible) definition of "love" which they then contort to into a means of supporting their particular view on a given issue or subject.

Using this we get folks claiming that "love" basically is about happiness (whatever that means to each individual...as long as it's PC, of course). So, if Ralph loves Raymond and this makes them happy then God approves. From this they declare anyone who opposes same-sex "love" are hateful and not following God.

This humanistic view of "love", which has infected many churches and Christians from one extent to another, turns God into nothing more than a Galactic Guru that loves us so much He just wants us to do whatever makes us happy no matter what that is (again, so long as it's PC).

By twisting the meaning of "love" and then contorting what "God is love" means, they create their own god which gives them approval to indulge in their preferred sins.

On the flip side, they use their twisting to denounce those who put forth actual biblical views on sin as being haters against love and happiness.

This is very dangerous in the secular culture as well as within many churches.

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3 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Right. While some may use the verse in question as an argument against Charismatic's and Pentecostal's over-emphasis and glorification of the Holy Spirit, I (personally) don't see that verse is what shows their error. Rather than the verse in question, in my opinion, it's the verse after which shows their error...

John 16:14

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The Holy Spirit will glorify the Lord Jesus Christ; therefore, he will point people to Christ...not himself. However, Charismatics and Pentecostals glorify the Holy Spirit. In doing so, (to me) it's obvious that they aren't led by the Spirit in doing so.

Perfect explanation!  :amen:

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4 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Right. While some may use the verse in question as an argument against Charismatic's and Pentecostal's over-emphasis and glorification of the Holy Spirit, I (personally) don't see that verse is what shows their error. Rather than the verse in question, in my opinion, it's the verse after which shows their error...

John 16:14

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The Holy Spirit will glorify the Lord Jesus Christ; therefore, he will point people to Christ...not himself. However, Charismatics and Pentecostals glorify the Holy Spirit. In doing so, (to me) it's obvious that they aren't led by the Spirit in doing so.

While I do agree that Holy Spirit does in fact glorify Christ, Using your line of argument, would you also then contend that the Holy Spirit does not glorify the Father? 

Nowhere does the scripture say that the Holy Spirit will only glorify the Son, when I read the scriptures authored by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, I see an exaltation of all three members of the Trinity.

The problem with the Pentecostals is not that they exalt and over emphasis the Holy Spirit, but that the "Holy Spirit" they claim to speak of is not the Holy Spirit revealed to us in the scriptures. One of the problems today is that many are scared of the Holy Spirit, the Doctrine of the Holy Spirit is one of the most important doctrines in all the word of God. If you don't think the Holy Spirit is important, go and search through the New Testament and see how many times he is mentioned. Obviously The doctrine of the Holy Spirit is not to be minimized. Some of you are giving a knee jerk reaction to Pentecostalism. 

When you read John chapter 14-16, would you contend that Jesus was not being lead by the Spirit because he was teaching and speaking about the Holy Spirit? 

Edited by Jordan Kurecki

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As Christ said, "When he is come..."

That's the time-frame.

What did Christ say the Spirit will do "when he is come"?

Those are the circumstances.

The Spirit was already present; after all, he is God and shares the same attribute of omnipresence. However, the Spirit would have a new and specific set of functions after Christ ascended.

  1. What do those functions consist of?
  2. Who are the included partakers of those functions other than the Spirit? He has certain functions in regard to the lost, and he has certain functions in regard to the saved. One of those functions for the saved is to glorify Jesus Christ.
21 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

Using your line of argument, would you also then contend that the Holy Spirit does not glorify the Father? 

What? Where did that come from? I don't have a "line of argument". I'm not debating or arguing anything. However, to answer your question...no, I wouldn't contend that. 

25 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

Nowhere does the scripture say that the Holy Spirit will only glorify the Son

There are many things that the scriptures don't say. Such as, the scriptures don't say that the Holy Spirit will glorify himself. However, the scriptures DO say that in the lives of believers, the Spirit will glorify the Son.

27 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

I see an exaltation of all three members of the Trinity.

So do I.

36 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

One of the problems today is that many are scared of the Holy Spirit

No, I could be wrong, but I think people are more scared of what other people will think of them if they talk about the Holy Spirit...thanks to the circus performer that Pentecostals and Charismatics have made him out to be. People are scared to be identified with that. I'm not saying I'm right or it's right...just giving my perspective.

28 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

If you don't think the Holy Spirit is important, 

What? Where did that come from? 

29 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

Some of you are giving a knee jerk reaction to Pentecostalism. 

No, some of us are not. I'm just showing one of the errors of Pentecostalism as evidenced by a clear passage of scripture. In the life of a believer, the Holy Spirit will glorify Jesus Christ. It doesn't say anything other than that...so that's what I have to go on. If you want to believe that the Holy Spirit will ever glorify and exalt himself over Jesus Christ, you're free to do so.

38 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

When you read John chapter 14-16, would you contend that Jesus was not being lead by the Spirit because he was teaching and speaking about the Holy Spirit?

What? Where did that come from? However, to answer your question...no.

Now...I think I've answered all of your questions, and I've tried to do it humbly. I answered because you quoted me, and I felt that I should at least honor that. However, I no longer get involved in debates or arguments Jordan. If you want to respond to anything that I've said here, I understand. However, I feel it's only fair to let you know that I won't respond back again.

 

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Concerning John 16:13-15

John 16:13-15 serves as a unit of information concerning the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit in guiding believers “into all truth.”  The primary point of the passage is presented with the opening statement of John 16:13 – “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth.”  Herein we learn the following:

1.  The timing for the Holy Spirit’s guiding work – “Howbeit when he . . . is come.”  This would refer to the sending forth of the Holy Spirit to permanently indwell New Testament believers, which began on the Day of Pentecost.

2.  The character of the Holy Spirit’s guiding work – “the Spirit of truth.”

3.  The need for the Holy Spirit’s guiding work – “he will guide.”

4.  The recipients of the Holy Spirit’s guiding work – “you.”  This would be a direct reference unto the apostles as believers, and thus would have application unto all New Testament believers, since we are all now indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

5.  The content of the Holy Spirit’s guiding work – “into all truth.”

The entire rest of the passage then serves as an explanation for this primary point.  Specifically it serves as an explanation concerning the work of the Holy Spirit in guiding us “into all truth.”  Even so, from this point the passage begins to employ the two verbs “speak” and “shew” a number of times.

The first part of this explanation encompasses the compound statement – “For he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak.”  This statement begins with the explanatory conjunction “for” in order to indicate that it is an explanation.  Furthermore, this compound statement employs the adversative conjunction “but” in order to indicate that it expresses two contrasting truths. 

The first of these truths is that “he [the Spirit of truth] shall not speak of himself.”  Herein the preposition "of" is not employed to indicate the content of which (or, about which) the Holy Spirit will not speak, but is employed to indicate the source out of which (or, from which) the Holy Spirit will not speak.  Even so, when the Spirit of truth guides us “into all truth,” He will not speak out of Himself as the authority for that truth which He speaks.  Indeed, this understanding is substantiated by the contrasting truth concerning the source of authority out of which He will speak forth – “But whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak.”  When the Spirit of truth guides us “into all truth,” He will only speak forth that which He hears from another.  Yet that draws forth the question – Who is this other One from whom the Spirit of truth will hear, and thereby speak?

The answer to that question is revealed in John 16:14-15.  However, before that answer is revealed, a statement is made concerning the content which the Spirit of truth will speak – “And he will shew you things to come.”  Thus some of the “all truth” into which the Spirit of truth will guide us will be prophetic utterances concerning the future.

Then John 16:14 provides the answer to our above question --  Who is the One from whom the Spirit of truth will hear, and thereby speak?  “He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”  In this statement our Lord Jesus Christ begins by declaring that the Spirit of truth will glorify Him, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.  Certainly, this could be taken to mean that the Holy Spirit will glorify the Lord Jesus Christ by speaking specifically about the Lord Jesus Christ.  However, such is not the explanation that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself gives for the declaration that the Holy Spirit will glorify Him.  Rather, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself gives the explanation – “For he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”  Herein the explanatory conjunction “for” specifically indicates that this statement is the divine explanation for the previous statement.  So then, does this explanation focus upon the content about which the Spirit of truth will speak and by which He will glorify the Lord Jesus Christ?  No, it does not.  Rather, this explanation focuses upon the source from which the Spirit of truth will receive the truth to be revealed unto us.  Specifically, the Holy Spirit shall receive that truth of and from the Lord Jesus Christ, and such is the very truth that the Holy Spirit shall show unto us believers.  So then, the Spirit of truth will glorify the Lord Jesus Christ specifically by submitting Himself under the Lord’s authority so as to receive His message directly from the Lord Jesus Christ and so as to show forth only that message which the Lord Jesus Christ gives for Him to speak.  The Lord Jesus Christ is the One from whom, and the only One from whom the Spirit of truth will hear, and thereby speak.

Yet this appears to exclude God the Father from the process.  Therefore, our Lord Jesus Christ adds a further explanation in John 16:15 – “All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”  Herein the Lord Jesus Christ indicates that He Himself has equal ownership in all that God the Father owns.  As such, when the Holy Spirit receives and takes the message of truth directly from the Lord Jesus Christ, He is receiving and taking God the Father’s message also, since God the Father’s message and the Lord Jesus Christ’s message are the exact same message of truth to be delivered unto us. 

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I see what you're saying Brother, and I agree.

 Now look at this part of the verse........

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

Who is "the truth"? The one who said  "I am... the truth" ; Jesus...the one written about "in the volume of the book", the "name above every name".

Isn't it "the Word of God" that the "Spirit of truth" "hears" and "speaks"? And isn't the "Spirit of truth" he who brings scriptures to mind at certain times? The charismatics/Pentecostals believe the Holy Ghost gives them 'new revelations' which often are contrary to the Word of God and negate "the word". It can't be the "Spirit of truth" if it does that. I even had an Independent Baptist preacher tell me that we should "pray to the Holy Ghost".....is that in the Bible somewhere? I do know the Bible tells us to be FILLED with the Spirit, but if we focus on the name of Jesus and no other, we can't go wrong.

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On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 0:04 PM, heartstrings said:

Isn't it "the Word of God" that the "Spirit of truth" "hears" and "speaks"?

Amen!

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 0:04 PM, heartstrings said:

And isn't the "Spirit of truth" he who brings scriptures to mind at certain times?

Amen!

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 0:04 PM, heartstrings said:

The charismatics/Pentecostals believe the Holy Ghost gives them 'new revelations' which often are contrary to the Word of God and negate "the word". It can't be the "Spirit of truth" if it does that.

Amen, and AMEN!!

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Here's one I heard a lot when I tried to say what I believe -

"And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know." (1 Cor. 8:2)

Just to say to me that I didn't know anything.

And that from my former Pastor when confronted by him about me using the Geneva Bible in my sermons.

Totally out of context, and used to try to degrade me. He never defended the truth as he saw it, but always insisted 'it ain't the KJB' - regardless of the subject, and contrary to the truth, that when he found out I had a Geneva Bible he was SO excited and wanted one himself. I bought him one and he started using it with his family in their devotional time, comparing it with the KJB.

All of a sudden it was 'Mr. Negativity' and war time from then on. His wife was in a tizzy because she loved the Geneva Bible and how it read and spoke to her. I was under his ministry for 21 years. And after all we went through in that time, and ALL the sermons and teachings and his training of me as a minister - this was his final defense to me in me getting 'out of the realm' of normal modern Baptist thought - 1 Cor. 8:2. 

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11 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Here's one I heard a lot when I tried to say what I believe -

"And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know." (1 Cor. 8:2)

Just to say to me that I didn't know anything.

And that from my former Pastor when confronted by him about me using the Geneva Bible in my sermons.

Totally out of context, and used to try to degrade me. He never defended the truth as he saw it, but always insisted 'it ain't the KJB' - regardless of the subject, and contrary to the truth, that when he found out I had a Geneva Bible he was SO excited and wanted one himself. I bought him one and he started using it with his family in their devotional time, comparing it with the KJB.

All of a sudden it was 'Mr. Negativity' and war time from then on. His wife was in a tizzy because she loved the Geneva Bible and how it read and spoke to her. I was under his ministry for 21 years. And after all we went through in that time, and ALL the sermons and teachings and his training of me as a minister - this was his final defense to me in me getting 'out of the realm' of normal modern Baptist thought - 1 Cor. 8:2

Brother "Genevanpreacher,"

Although I do not wholly agree with your position on the Geneva translation (being likely not as much against it as some), I do fully agree that 1 Corinthians 8:2 is often used out of its immediate context as a "club" against those who do not agree with the accepted position on a matter.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar

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